Spins

C-150Pilot · Post by **C-150Pilot** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:25 am

Howdy!

Just wondering if your flight school permits you to spin their aircraft? Or if there is some regulation against it?

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:34 am

The flight school I used to work at allows spins, but only with an instructor or DFTE on board. This isn't due to a regulation, just a rule imposed by the flight school.

C-150Pilot · Post by **C-150Pilot** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:38 am

Alright, I meant without instructor...I always do some with my instructor at the end of lessons for fun. Just wondering if I would be allowed to do some on my own?

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:43 am

If your school allows it, AND your flight instructor authorizes you to do it as a solo exercise (if you've only got a SPP), there is no regulation against it.

Please don't do it unless the above applies to you! That's just stupid.

Edited because it's too early for good grammar...

RVR12 · Post by **RVR12** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:54 pm

At my first FTU, they allowed it after your instructor would say you can hadle them more than comptently... the second FTU, only with an instructor onboard... even though I was already at commercial standard when i got there... and have dont them MANY times before at my previous FTU... it just depends on the owners and CFI's...

kzulu · Post by **kzulu** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:36 am

transport does not allow students of ppl or cpl to practice spins solo anymore.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:00 am

kzulu wrote:transport does not allow students of ppl or cpl to practice spins solo anymore.

bullshit

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:58 am

Ya I second DD, Kzulu that sounds like a total load of BS; but If you can point me in the direction of documentation supporting what you are saying.....

A flip through my FIG tells me to still teach it, and although it was removed as a FT item for the PPL The TC guidance notes "Stall/Spin Awareness March 2000" clearly states that it should still be taught with the same conviction. SO it is NOT required solo practice for lessons 21-23 (ppl) like it used to be, BUT it should still be taught; it just wont be examined.... as for a CPL student I cant imagine HOW you could pass an FT well if you HADENT done solo practice; furthermore It is my thought that if your FTU does not permit people to Spin (in a certified AC within WB etc...) than that tells me that either their instructors are not doing their job, or you (as a student) should not be flying a plane to begin with. How can you possibly be a proficient pilot if you are not permitted to practice, Granted you would have to convince the instructor that you knew what you were doing, and I personally would never sign a student out to do spins if they didn’t know what they were doing; but that’s the whole point of Dual, get them safe and competent, then send them out to become proficient. This is just as bad as an FTU not allowing AC to go to grass strips; how are you EVER going to learn a soft field landing if you do them ALL ON CONCREAT!!!!!! Sure they have broken planes to worry about, but then have better training; that’s the whole reason you are shelling out $40,000. Not to be legal; but to be SAFE and in my somewhat short life in aviation so far I can see a HUGE difference between the 2. I know SPPs I would trust more then CPLs….

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:39 am

GENERAL AVIATION ADVISORY CIRCULAR

GAAC 2004-02

2004-07-15
Subject

Flight Instructor Guide - Aeroplane (TP 975) revision
Purpose

Communicate revisions to the Flight Instructor Guide, Part III - Lesson Plans.
Reference

* Flight Instructor Guide - Aeroplane (TP 975)
* Flight Training Manual (FTM)

Background

CAR 405.14 requires that flight training in an aeroplane or helicopter shall be conducted in accordance with the applicable flight instructor guide and flight training manual or equivalent document and the applicable training manual on human factors. Part III of the Flight Instructor Guide is a sample training syllabus that includes guidance and direction to flight instructors in developing suitable training plans. Lesson Plans 21 and 23 of the Guide recommend solo practice of incipient spin and spiral dive recoveries. The solo practice of incipient spin recoveries is no longer acceptable. With respect to spiral dive recoveries, this is inconsistent with the recommended practices set out in the Flight Training Manual.

Accordingly, Lesson Plans 21 and 23 of the Flight Instructor Guide (TP 975) have been revised.
Action

Effective July 15, 2004, the Flight Instructor Guide (TP 975), Part III, is revised with respect to Lesson Plans 21 and 23. From Lesson Plan 21, the recommended solo practice of the incipient spin recovery is removed. From Lesson Plan 23, the solo practice of incipient spin and spiral dive recoveries is removed.

The revised version of the Flight Instructor Guide may be found at: http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... s/menu.htm.
Effective Date

July 15, 2004.

Manzur Huq
Director
General Aviation

Aether · Post by **Aether** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:58 am

I was just talking to an inspector at Transport about this last week. The person that I talked to told me that it was required to have at lest four lessons of spin (full and incipient) training including solo practice.

I really wish they would make up their minds so when you talk to two different inspectors you don't get two totally different answers.

-M

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:54 am

transport does not allow students of ... cpl to practice spins solo anymore

Dunno what part of the country you're from, but around here, when someone is getting the commercial licence, they already have their private licence.

So, you are saying that someone with a private licence is prohibited from spinning an airplane.

What utter nonsense.

Many people with private pilot licences are very serious aerobatic pilots, and compete at the Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced and even Unlimited level, where I can assure you that spins are part of the Known sequences.

Please send your Transport Inspector to the next aerobatic competition in Canada, and have him arrest all the private pilots that are flying in it, ok?

RVR12 · Post by **RVR12** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:47 pm

sakism wrote:GENERAL AVIATION ADVISORY CIRCULAR
Accordingly, Lesson Plans 21 and 23 of the Flight Instructor Guide (TP 975) have been revised.
Action

Effective July 15, 2004, the Flight Instructor Guide (TP 975), Part III, is revised with respect to Lesson Plans 21 and 23. From Lesson Plan 21, the recommended solo practice of the incipient spin recovery is removed. From Lesson Plan 23, the solo practice of incipient spin and spiral dive recoveries is removed.

If you cross reference your Flight Instructor Guide, you will notice, that it's a syllabus for a PRIVATE Pilot’s licence (P. 197-222). Since the requirement on the flight test no longer necessitates the demonstration of a spin, they should not have to practice them solo. But as a personal belief, if they plan on continuing on as a Commercial Student they should be brought to the level where they can handle them solo, as it’s on the Commercial Flight test.

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:30 am

As I read it a student pilot (RPP/PPL) may not practice spins solo. It makes no mention of prohibiting dual spins.

As for licenced pilots - well, this is (as RVR pointed out) for the PPL. After you're licenced you can do whatever you want as long as you have no passengers.

My concern is with the wording 'incipient spin'. Does that mean that we cannot let students practice power/flap on stalls because they probably will get a wing drop? ...or any stalls because they might get a wing drop?

Incipient stage is defined (in FTM) as: '...from the time the aircraft stalls and rotation starts...'

2R · Post by 2R » Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:51 am

Some aircraft are easy to spin and some are designed not to spin without extreme inputs from the pilot.Spinning is bad for the instruments and if you intend to do any instrument flight on the aircraft spinning is not recommended.
It all depends on what kind off aircraft you are going to fly .If you are going to fly an aircraft that can easily spin.Get a parachute on and go have fun.As most modern trainers are not easily spun it is tough on the aircraft and has limited value to the student. Spin training on a Tiger-Moth /Stearman is very necessary in that type of aircraft as an engine failure on take off and climbout can lead to a spin .
The main purpose of the exercise is Recognition and Recovery
The value of the incipent spin is it demonstrates how bad things have to get before the modern trainer will spin.
My first experience spinning was almost fatal as we recovered at 200 AGL
I thought it was fun until i looked at the instructors face .He had that i just filled my pants look. When i seen how scared he was i realized how close we had come to crashing.He was having trouble recovering as his false 1/2 leg was stuck under the rudder and he did not realize that the rudder inputs to stop the rotation were not happening. Fortunatly for us Cessna had designed the aircraft to spiral dive from a spin and the recovery from the dive did not require rudder input.He stopped shaking after his forth beer and we went spinning again the next day this time we recovered well above the 2000 ft agl recomended by Cessna.
And the funny part was when i asked frank how he lost half his leg
He smiled and said "he lost it spinning a 172"

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:22 pm

Woseres.....

sakism wrote: After you're licenced you can do whatever you want as long as you have no passengers.

are you telling me a PPL/CPL cant spin an AC with people onboard! Shoot I think I missed that in air regs... (assuming within W/B)

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:28 pm

Walker: you are correct. There is no regulation that says you (private/comm) cannot spin with a pax. I personally would not advise it, but it is not a contravention of any CAR.

RVR12 · Post by **RVR12** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:05 pm

Well... Due to Transport's wonderful way of making the CAR's Interpretable and the ability to word things all goofy... you COULD say its illegal to do it with pax, but it doesn’t really say it in black and white (its confusing.... bear with me though...

"aerobatic manoeuvre" - means a manoeuvre where a change in the attitude of an aircraft results in a bank angle greater than 60 degrees, an abnormal attitude or an abnormal acceleration not incidental to normal flying; (acrobatie aérienne)

So technically, as long as a spin does not exceed 60 degs of bank(not always), abnormal attitude(I’ve recovered semi-inverted before....) or have any abnormal acceleration(Spiral dive??) its not an aerobatic manoeuvre... but if in your books its an aerobatic manoeuvre, than to carry passengers... you need

Aerobatic Manoeuvres with Passengers

602.28 No person operating an aircraft with a passenger on board shall conduct an aerobatic manoeuvre unless the pilot-in-command of the aircraft has engaged in

(a) at least 10 hours dual flight instruction in the conducting of aerobatic manoeuvres or 20 hours conducting aerobatic manoeuvres; and

(b) at least one hour of conducting aerobatic manoeuvres in the preceding six months.

But in order to do spins, you have to be in "utility" category, not the "aerobatic" category... so really it depends on whom ever is telling you not to spin with a pax...

I’m not on any side, Its just to show how one can change the meaning of the CAR’s… just playing devil's advocate with my 2 cents!

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:45 pm

RVR12: we've been over this ground before. Transport has said on this very website that a spin is not an aerobatic maneuver, despite the fact that it seems to meet the definition. Go figure.

Since a spin is not an aerobatic maneuver, 602.28 does not apply.

Note that even if you do think that a spin is an aerobatic maneuver, you still can carry pax during aerobatics, even if you're not an aerobatic instructor, if you qualify as per 602.28

P.S. I know, the CARs are what any given Transport Inspector says they are on any given day.

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:56 pm

In a C172 POH it says, in various places:

"...aerobatic manouvers, including spins..."

If the particular aircraft calls spins 'aerobatic', I think you would have a tough time getting it past TC if anything were to happen.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:26 pm

Hedley wrote:Many people with private pilot licences are very serious aerobatic pilots, and compete at the Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced and even Unlimited level, where I can assure you that spins are part of the Known sequences.

Please send your Transport Inspector to the next aerobatic competition in Canada, and have him arrest all the private pilots that are flying in it, ok?

I think we should but they can only arrest the first place and maybe 2nd and 3rd place guys since they'll recieve a "reward" for their flights...

2R · Post by 2R » Thu Feb 02, 2006 12:40 pm

Spinning at night is not as much fun.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:33 am

2R,

I never thought of that! I'm gonna have to try it!

"Hey guys, watch this!"

-istp

RVR12 · Post by **RVR12** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:22 pm

The three worst things to hear in the cockpit:
The second officer says, "Oh shit!"
The first officer says, "I have an idea!"
The captain say, "Hey, watch this!"

— anon

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:18 pm

I've done night aerobatics - there is no regulation prohibiting it. I might suggest you spend some time doing acro during the day first, though

Hotel Tango · Post by **Hotel Tango** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:14 pm

Hedley wrote:
Dunno what part of the country you're from, but around here, when someone is getting the commercial licence, they already have their private licence.

Not that it really applies, but students of the Integrated Commercial Pilots License do not need to complete a PPL beforehand. Although where I did mine, we got one anyways.