Renewal bonds

Yenta · Post by **Yenta** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:04 am

Well, it has finally happened. With the majors hiring, and out of fear of a mass exodus, the company for whom I work have decided to implement training bonds. They have decided to go all the way - bonds on initials, upgrades and even renewals. While most of the pilots within the company understand the justification of the initial bond, we are quite baffled by the one on a renewal. We figure that once a pilot has gone through the 24 months of the initial bond, they have paid their dues to the company. At that point the company has had a good return on their initial investment and they would then be employing a pilot with considerable experience in both the airplane and the operation. We figure that this experience should be considered invaluable, but the company does not share that point of view - word is that they will fire anyone that does not sign!

The bond is set up so that it appears to be a loan from one of the owners to the employee. No money actually changes hand unless the employee leaves the company prior to the expiry date of the contract. At that point the remaining value is due. The bond is prorated and since we are a 705 operation (requiring renewals every six months) the balance remaining decreases rapidly.

I guess most infuriating out of all this, is that, from my understanding even a company that was as hated as Jetsgo did not require anything to be signed on a renewal. While this may sound like a rant, I am in fact looking for any information or feedback concerning bonds. What have others learned to look for and what is there to avoid? What legal issues have been brought up and what flaws have been found. For most of us within the company this is the first time we are faced with a bond and therefore we are proceeding with caution. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:15 pm

Sign it using a ficticous name and hope they don't notice. Try Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse, or my old favorite, Jim Dandy.

Surly Joe · Post by **Surly Joe** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:37 pm

The whole initial training bond thing has been covered at length already and I agree (somewhat) with your summation of that topic however:

Do not sign or even think about signing a renewal bond. If they dont value you enough as an employee after 24 months to keep you current and that you are already experienced with the company then they should go pound sand and deserve what they get.

Its a ridiculous idea and there is no justification for it.

nite_owl · Post by **nite_owl** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:45 pm

You're signing under duress in this instance. ie. sign this agreement or you're fired!!! The paper won't stand up under scrutiny in the legal system so sign by all means to keep your job. When a better one comes along take it. You're not beholden to these as*holes and they won't collect.
Better yet unionize on the bastards and get some working conditions everyone of you can work with!

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:22 pm

I really hope you and your coworkers have a backbone. Take a collective stance and tell them no.

Call the labour board and ask them what their stance is on it. You don’t need to give any info (company name, your name, ETC). I know that it is illegal and I would tell your employer unless they want a wrongful dismissal suite, to shove the renewal bond up their ass.

Stuff like this pisses me off. Fu@king cheap operators

.

Cheers

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:26 pm

This is a company that deserves to have pilots screw off with new PPC's! Are some of your pilots actually signing for renewals.....if you said "no", as a group...that'd be the end of it.

Valhalla · Post by **Valhalla** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:24 pm

Here is some basic contract law (from a non-lawyer who took a class on this once upon a time):

In order for a contract to be binding, both signing parties must be over 18, both must be able to read and understand the contract, and you cannot be under duress.

Being told that you will loose your job if you do not sign is a classic example of duress. Make sure you ask them what would happen if you do not sign. If they tell you will be fired, sign away and walk away smiling because when you do quit, the contract would not be valid.

By the way, Mariam-Webster defines duress as "compulsion by threat".

wrenchturner · Post by **wrenchturner** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 7:32 pm

If no money changes hands, that would be more of a promisary note, and from what I've heard and seen, those don't really hold up. There's always a way to get out of them. Also, that's a new low to require one for renewal too

Legacy · Post by **Legacy** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:43 pm

better yet, tell us what company it is so i can call them and give them a piece of my mind

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:16 pm

I've signed mine "Donald Duck" before on a Sunday morning and left to go on course later that day.

The CP came in on Monday......"DONALD DUCK!!!" WTF??

He called and told me I'm being pulled off the course. I quickly told him it was only a photocopy and the real one was in my training file.

Boy that was good for a laugh. Sure wish I was in the office to hear him.

Anyhow, if the situation arises you've got a great wrongful dismissal case. You have the right to request in writing to the employer to provide you a written statement giving the reasons for the dismissal. Can you see your boss trying to put that in writing? "We terminated Mr. ****** employment because we are a cheap-ass company and don't deserve to be in business."

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:04 am

nite_owl wrote:You're signing under duress in this instance. ie. sign this agreement or you're fired!!! The paper won't stand up under scrutiny in the legal system so sign by all means to keep your job. When a better one comes along take it. You're not beholden to these as*holes and they won't collect.
Better yet unionize on the bastards and get some working conditions everyone of you can work with!

I can understand their postion on an initial and applaud them for not demanding cash up front but a renewal is ridiculous.

NiteOwl has it right and if no money is changing hands then sign away and @#$! off at the first available opportunity. The company is going to have to chase you for damages and no court will issue a judgement as you signed under duress. The company sounds so cheap that I doubt they will even bother trying but rather rely on bully tactics to intimidate the pilots.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:20 am

Renewal bonds........there is only ONE reason they exist....
YOU MORONS KEEP SIGNING THEM!!!! Oooops......I've used the "M" word again......naughty me.....somebody spank me!

Yenta · Post by **Yenta** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:36 pm

I'd like to thank everyone for the helpful insights. As I've said, no one within the company has been faced with this situation before and no one has any legal experience. I will definitely have a lawyer look at the validity of this contract/promisary note. I know that one of the guys has already called the labour board, and so far they haven't been much help. Maybe they'll have more feedback if they realize that the contract is to be signed under duress.

Doc - "You morons keep signing them"....um...no. We are faced with these renewal bonds but no one in the company has signed them yet. I realize that I mentioned that I wanted feedback, I guess I should have also specified "helpful". No offence, but it is unfortunate that the rank of moderator doesn't necessarily equate to better literacy skills.

maxofthenorth · Post by **maxofthenorth** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:36 pm

Sorry, not picking on you KAG, but you mean have a backbone and stand together like when KBA took away the Vacation pay and no one even complained?

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:39 pm

ROFL.. You people are funny "you'll be fired." Please, seeing as most pilots are paid HOURLY or by the FLIGHT. You don't need to fire anyone, you don't sign, you don't get trained, you don't get trained you can't work, you can't work you can't get money..

You can't get money, you're left with one option, to quit...

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:17 pm

Maxofthenorth...I was hired after that happened, and being paid as much as I was to work half the year I didn't feel I had much right to complain about.
I know loseing it sucked, but I believe they found a way to do it legally - by putting it on every paycheck. also if you work more than what 210 days a year you get it. Still sucks though for those who had it and had it taken away.

Cheers.

w squared · Post by **w squared** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:24 pm

From what you're saying, KAG, it sounds like KBA just simplified the administration of vacation pay. Like lots of oil and gas companies do, they tack on the required amount of your gross on each and every check.
This makes perfect sense for people that aren't necessarily paid the same amount in each pay period (kinda like guys that work 6 months out of the year, right?)

You still recieve your vacation pay, so where's the problem?

Rubberbiscuit · Post by **Rubberbiscuit** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:35 pm

Typical aviation management tactics. "Lets see how far we can push the pilots/lower the bar and get away with it?" One word: NO! Maybe it is just me, but your management/manager must have lost touch with reality if they/he/she has failed to see what is happening within the Canadian aviation industry these days.

Zatopec · Post by **Zatopec** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 8:14 pm

As it has been said before, such bonds aren't worth a dime!

I once had to sign a bond that stipulated that if I left within the first 12 months of its duration , I had to pay 4000$ to the company for training and other things like working visas. I showed it to my father's lawyer who smiled the entire time it took him to read it. He told me to sign it and come see him if I ever wanted to leave, that it would be all finished in a matter of minutes without me having to pay anything to anyone.

It's a simple as that.

maxofthenorth · Post by **maxofthenorth** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:37 pm

KAG..... all I can say is those days are in the past.... welcome aboard!

rotorfloat · Post by **rotorfloat** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:20 pm

Another way to get out of a bond is a term called 'change of circumstance'. It's been pulled out on prenuptuials during divorce proceedings and such.

Basically, it means that "My life was different then, when I signed the contract.." or "I have to leave/move or I will lose my girlfriend/wife/kids/my parents are sick/my dog is sick/I'm sick"
No justice will ever hold you to a bond under those or even more circumstances.

And you can always call their bluff; wait and see if they even start proceedings to get their money back from you, which cost them money up front to begin with.

If you do feel compelled to sign a bond/contract, be sure to CYA as well...include voiding the agreement if you are laid off or fired. Try to get some wages in there as well. Then you have an 'out' if/when they are non-compliant. Make 'em promise to make you a captain, whatever. Show how serious you are and they may back off, it looks much more professional than sheepishly signing whatever is put in front of you.

RADIOFLYER · Post by **RADIOFLYER** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 8:14 pm

As far as the company in question, it is simply a reaction in getting even with pilots that are looking to better their careers. I know because I worked there. Some guys have given more than 5 years and instead of thanking you for giving them you loyalty and time and in return wish you good luck in your future, they choose to bring you down the best way they can. I even know of one of their pilots who braught them a contract worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and all they said was you have to give us money for your renewal or else. Now what does that say about your employer. Its a real shame because it is a real good company with real bad management.

Like most of you say the best thing is for everyone to get togeather and not pay for renewals, but that will never happen. Therefore do what you have to do to keep your job and remember that if you have to pay back a part of your renewal its because you are moving on to bigger and better things. Its like when you enter the cockpit, you leave all the problems behind and deal with whats in front of you.

Best of luck to all and to all a good night

RADIOFLYER[/b]

Buster · Post by **Buster** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:08 pm

The problem here and it's been happening for years is that the pilot group has been whoring itself for years. I will sign this, do that for free, buy my PPC, resign my bond, and it will all get better when I move to the bigger and better job. Well sorry guys it has already moved to the bigger better jobs. You look at AC, Jazz, Canjet, Westjet, Harmony...the wages suck. Why, because we made it that way and its just going to get worse, because there is no backbone left in this country, and we have become a bunch of cheap whores.

Sign away my friend, cause things will be better down the road...

Buster

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:06 pm

If your renewal bond is 6 months, and has to be resigned every 6 months, you have 2 days per year when you can leave your job without it costing you money. Crazy!

The pilots that are already there are screwed- don't sign, don't get trained, can't work, have to quit (as someone said above). But who will replace you? Hopefully there are enough GOOD jobs out there right now that the answer will soon become obvious- nobody. Of course you could take the chance that the AvCanada legal department peanut gallery is correct in saying the bond wouldn't hold up, and just sign it anyway.

Oh, and I'll be the chump to ask what's on everyone's mind. WHAT COMPANY IS THIS?!

tumbleweed · Post by **tumbleweed** » Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:23 pm

If you guys keep scheming on how to get out of the bond. More and more employers will demand bonds up front. All of this chat about bonds and how much you hate them and how to get out of them just lowers your precieved integerity level. Personally I wish there was no bonds but I also wish that most pilots are honest.

I know everyone is going to come on here and say oh yeah treat me right and I will stay. I call bullshit, just look at all the turnover that is happening now. Almost all pilots would sell their mother to get an interview at jazz.

I know King Air and Jet Stream guys that do work at good companies and are leaving those companies for the airline job even though they are treated well and have to take a 50% pay cut to move to Jazz

My advice is-- If you are airline oriented don't bitch about bonds because it is your type that caused them. If you aren't all about the airlines then be fussy, find a good company that does not have a bond and hopefully you willfind something that you will enjoy.