Turning down the RED team

[far-rider]

First of all Emirates pays 100% of your accomodation and virtually all education costs for your kids in private schools.

JS compares top rate 777 Capt, (which they dont even have yet), at AC to bottom rate at EK, 3rd year Capt package at EK is 13000 USD/month tax free, top is about 17000 USD/ month, tax free, inclusive of provident fund contribution and accomodation.

You have the option to opt out of company accom and take the cash to put toward a mortgage if you like.

If there is any justification going on its you guys that are flying DC9 sized aircraft for Dash-8 wages. Seeing that the supreme court has ruled that pilots and flight attendants are to be paid the same, I sure am glad to be out of the Canadian aviation scene, its a national disgrace.

You need to broaden your horizons some of you guys, you dont have to accept the poor pay at AC, there are thousands of jobs opening up all over the world, and no flight attendant outside of Canada makes more
than any pilot. At AC they are paying the purser more than most of the Embraer pilots take home....very sad.

[RB-211]

Rider,

Trying to prove a point to some people about $ is hard. AC guys will claim the benfit of living in Canada and I tend to agree. The fact remains though that compared to other flag carriers world wide the pay at AC is very poor. This is especially true for the newbies. Anyone who thinks uncle Milty is going to give it back is smoking to much of what they grow. As long as WJ is paying peanuts AC can't justify paying more.

EK has been sliding a bit for sure but they are feeling the pinch and things will swing the other way. They are now offering DEC on the 777 for anyone with Boeing glass PIC time. DEC on the 777 for a large chunk of cash or 37k to live in TO amongst Leaf fans. Heh its all about lifestyle man and Canada is great for that but it sucks being broke.

[rjer1]

with someone getting hired in the next few months, what is their pay going to look like after 2 years based on the numbers they are going to hire?
I don't really know how long that "pay group" lasts or how many pilots are in it?

[Jaques Strappe]

JS compares top rate 777 Capt, (which they dont even have yet), at AC to bottom rate at EK, 3rd year Capt package at EK is 13000 USD/month tax free, top is about 17000 USD/ month, tax free, inclusive of provident fund contribution and accomodation.

You have the option to opt out of company accom and take the cash to put toward a mortgage if you like.

If there is any justification going on its you guys that are flying DC9 sized aircraft for Dash-8 wages. Seeing that the supreme court has ruled that pilots and flight attendants are to be paid the same, I sure am glad to be out of the Canadian aviation scene, its a national disgrace.

You need to broaden your horizons some of you guys, you dont have to accept the poor pay at AC, there are thousands of jobs opening up all over the world, and no flight attendant outside of Canada makes more
than any pilot. At AC they are paying the purser more than most of the Embraer pilots take home....very sad.

I liked your post but have to ask why there is such a huge difference between your numbers and those posted on airlinepilotpay.com which also correspond to the numbers my friends at Emirates are telling me.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... 308111.htm

I actually compared aircraft to aircraft when I brought up the 777 but hey, use any airplane you like.

The supreme court of Canada has not ruled that F/A's should be paid the same as pilots by the way. They have simply said that differing collective agreements have nothing to do with the arguement.

I agree with your statement about broadening ones horizons but I think you should get some of your facts straight.

[Long Keel]

The supreme court of Canada has not ruled that F/A's should be paid the same as pilots by the way. They have simply said that differing collective agreements have nothing to do with the arguement.

I agree with your statement about broadening ones horizons but I think you should get some of your facts straight.

Agreed!

In fact at the last YYZ LEC council meeting we heard how now all of the male dominated contracts will be brought up for comparision. This means not only ACPA, but also IAM ramp, IAM mtc.

Since f/a's have a job with no education requirement beyond a second language, but at the time of filing even that requirement didn't exist! In all likelihood they could in fact be found that they are overpaid for what they bring to the company, or conversely, the ramp may be underpaid. Equal work for equal value.

Also, look at what is happening today in the middle east as a result of an editorial cartoon. To all those clamouring for the sandbox...one day it may be a Canadian who offends the mullah masses and then it is you on their fecal list. As I said before, for many of us, there is no amount of money that is high enough to attract us to living in the Muslim world. It is too undemocratic, and too unstable to feel positive bringing our families there. Canadians don't march down the street with machine guns, faces covered when the Globe and Mail publishes offensive material. That is worth more than any dollar value, or PPC on a big jet.

[Jaques Strappe]

Rider,

The fact remains though that compared to other flag carriers world wide the pay at AC is very poor..

Hi RB, At the risk of getting into another one of our pissing contests, which I don't really want to do I will ask if you can back up this statement?

The only reason I say that is because I was involved in a commitee to help place pilots who were being laid off. At that time, I learned alot about what other companies were paying around the world and I was actually quite surprised to see ( or maybe realize ) how the AC pay compared, especially after the U.S meltdown.

There are other companies that pay more, always will be, however, generally, AC fares out as an average. Agreed that the first two years suck but lets face it, we need to look at the big picture.

If you look at pay from other countries and compare that pay to the cost of living to be there along with the average salary of that country, then compare apples to apples and I believe you may see a different picture.

I don't think you can compare to a Westjet salary as nobody can really say what a Westjet pilot really earns year after year. I could say the same about Virgin Atlantic. ( Your flag Carrier) I had beers with a 340 Captain in Narita, I was stunned at how little he was making and having to live in England.

Mind you, the back end more than made up for it!

I would argue that the erosion of pilot salaries is not just limited to Canada which intentional or not is what your post leads one to believe. The erosion is worldwide, industry wide and nobody is safe from it at the moment. Air Canada is profitable, sometimes it amazes me, but it is and in todays climate where most airlines are on the ropes, we may have an opportunity to increase our salaries. I may be smoking something sure but if we were not profitable then that opportunity to try would not exist.

[RB-211]

JS,

Your post was well thought out and factual I must admit. Most I do agree with. AC will always compare its short haul wages with its competitors I hate to say. As long as 737 pilots at WJ/CJ pay what they do your A320 pilots will be limited in their claims for more cash. They make more I agree but from a business point of view they will not be paid loads more than the direct competiton. Low cost pilots in the UK are paid very well compared to WJ which is reflected in the mainline/flag salaries.

Where AC pilots will be able to justify higher pay is on the long haul side of things which appear to be looking up ie 777/787 order. The fact is my carrier pays much higher to start and in the long run simply due to the fact that its international market dwarfs AC. Big carriers make money with their premium product. Virgin is not the UK's flag carrier that honour belongs to BA so compare with them. Lufthansa, KLM, Air France plus the big US carrriers as well. Virgin guys got a big raise a while back but its is still too low. Talking to one of our union leaders recently he mentioned they are out for more and will get it........Market forces.

Either way its the best gig going back home. Milton is going to go to great lengths to not up the ante and as long as the others are cheaping out. I wish you the best of luck getting more. If you do make sure starting wages are the first thing on the list.

[Jaques Strappe]

Hey RB

Yes you are probably correct about the short haul world. I thought BA gave up the flag and Branson grabbed it which made Virgin Britains' flag carrier.

What is the story there?

[ivanhoe]

RB-211

If the pilots at WestJet vote yes to the latest contract proposal the old arguments of WestJet lowering the bar will be less accurate than they ever were. Stand by for further...

[far-rider]

JS

I would refer you to the Emirates Group Careers website for updated payscales, you will see that a year one Captain starts at 26,200 AED plus housing and Provident fund, comes out to about 11,500 USD TAX free, that is year ONE, it goes to about 17000 USD Tax free and that is before profit sharing that averages 1-3 months pay per year.

Contrast that with the top payscale at AC, 207 /hour, based on guarantee, converted to USD and assuming a total tax burden of 35%, works out to avout 7200 USD per month. The most senior Captain at AC makes about what a senior F/O at EK makes...FACT.

AC is still one of the few airlines that pays a flight attendant more than a pilot in a lot of cases....FACT...outrageous.

The streets of most American cities and some Canadian ones now are far more dangerous than Dubai, Bahrain and Muscat, you might not want to live her and thats OK, but living here is no hardship...FACT