WORKING DOCKHAND FOR FREE????????? YEAH THATS WHAT I THINK

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sat Feb 04, 2006 9:02 pm

Traf wrote:Actually no. DO it like this. Tell him yes you are gonna do it for sure. Then spend the rest of the winter looking for a job. When you get one, wait until 2 days before he needs you on the dock to tell him to eat shit and get another free monkey.

That's funny, I was thinking the same thing, worse off, applying with a false resume a sh8t load of hours take the CP job and tell him, "oops."

Think he'd have a longer/harder time getting a CP then a docker....

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:57 am

Traf, right on. Take it from a old guy whose been around long enough to know the best way to get a raise is to do the same thing. Find another job first and then negotiate. It puts you in a much better position with out burning bridges.

They'll treat you like a boy scout or girl guide if you let them. That's the nature of the beast and the way things work in general aviation unfortunately.
Cheers DR

zero · Post by **zero** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:24 am

Tips for future negotiations...thanks fellas.

Traf · Post by **Traf** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:43 am

This industry has a terrible mentality that it is ok to undercut yourself and your co-workers "just this once" so you can advance to the next step. The catch 22 is every time you do that, the next step has to lower their bar to compete. Jetsgo was a perfect example of this. Most guys I knew working there said BS like " I am just doing it to get the jet time so I can get to Air Canada". That sounds very simliar to " I am jsut doing it to get some time so I can get a real float job". Those same people (the lucky ones that made it) that did it to get to AC are now at AC facing wage cuts and lower entry wages because AC is having a hard time competing with low cost carriers.

Believe it or not, that one free dock job you took will/can affect your pay and salary for the rest of your career. I know it sounds so far fetched but it is a simple chain reaction. Once you have some time under your belt and the novelty of being a pilot wears off, you will be looking for that job that pays respectfully and gives you the time off that you need to do the things outside of aviation. the choices you make now will affect your ability to find that down the road.

The other consideration is if this c0*k sucker is so cheap that he won't pay you 500/month, what kind of short cuts would he be willing to take when it comes to maintenance? Think about that!!!

dash2/3 · Post by **dash2/3** » Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:09 pm

this topic again?

when the hell are you guys gonna wake up? you want to go to savant lake, get paid @#$! all/next to it for being shithouse diggers and bag chuckers? my very first job in the "bush" was as a dockhand. it was in red lake, 1999. i was told there MAY be a chance for SOME time on the 180, but no promises. I was paid salary of 2000/month. the days were LOOOONG, nights were way too short, and beer never tasted sooo good

get a backbone people, no matter what the job, you/your time/effort etc. etc., not to mention self esteem are worth something. yeah, i worked my fucking bag off from may1st to july 31st,built docks, dug shitters, built fences you name it, and no, i did not fly. i rode along as swamper(no, i didn't log it either) learned a lot about the operation, and a lot from the the older seasoned veterans.

i got wind of an outfit close by that was looking for a 180 driver right away, i talked to my boss who was feeling very bad about me not getting any flying in about it (not wanting to burn any bridges by just quitting) he gave me his blessings(and a great reference) and off i went to finish the season with the new outfit. logged about 175 hours during the remainder of the summer/fall and was fortunate to not have gone a season without flying.

this industry has a strange way of sorting out the riff-raff(most of the time anyways..) what comes around gos' around. i learned early to keep your mouth shut, and ears and eyes wide open. work hard and things will work out, but never accept to work for free. this industry is also VERY small. There are a LOT of people out here/there that never have, nor would work for free and they DO NOT look very highly upon those that do.

cheers, good luck, and be safe out there.
Dash2/3

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:17 am

dash2/3 wrote:this topic again?

This industry has a strange way of sorting out the riff-raff(most of the time anyways..) what comes around gos' around. i learned early to keep your mouth shut, and ears and eyes wide open. work hard and things will work out, but never accept to work for free. this industry is also VERY small. There are a LOT of people out here/there that never have, nor would work for free and they DO NOT look very highly upon those that do.

cheers, good luck, and be safe out there.
Dash2/3

Dash2/3,

Right on

I've worked for operators that throw out anyone's application that has I'm "willing to work for free" on it. Once or twice he had a couple of guys escorted off the property and then phoned the competition to let them know about them also.
I asked him why he'd sabotage their efforts with other potential employers.
He said it's simple "you get what you pay for" If a guy doesn't respect himself enough to ask for a wage how could you expect them to respect the operation. If they were to work for free at my competitors how long would we all stay in business.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:24 am

Driving Rain wrote: Once or twice he had a couple of guys escorted off the property and then phoned the competition to let them know about them also.
I asked him why he'd sabotage their efforts with other potential employers.
If they were to work for free at my competitors how long would we all stay in business.

And the next day they were at the competition paying for PPCs and the guy was out of business.....

boat head77 · Post by **boat head77** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:45 am

i have seen resumes come in to a place that runs navajos with cover letters saying the person was willing to work for free and would pay the company an hourly rate when they were flying. i shit you not.
the chief there came up the hard way and it made him want to puke and he actually let other pilots phone and make fun of those guys.

tailwind · Post by **tailwind** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:00 pm

I am fairly new to this site, but this forum caught my attention obviously as i have also been contacted for an interview with this air service... Just curious to the others who have been contacted as to
1) how many there are?
2) what kind of hours do you guys have

the last thing i want to do is to waste my time travelling to this interview to be offered this dockhand job for free, to which obviously i would have to refuse with the utmost of laughter...
thanks guys

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:35 pm

An interview for an non-paid postiton

Wholly shit now ive heard everything!!!

Did they call you back collect?

zero · Post by **zero** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:44 pm

Stand up for yerselves, lads...don't do it, make this guy eat his words.

tailwind · Post by **tailwind** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:58 pm

no the interview is for the 185 job...which had better be a paid position....lol

tailwind · Post by **tailwind** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:59 pm

but yes...they are having interviews for the dockhand position as well... so ya you have heard everything

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:34 pm

I also received a call, but graciously declined the position and the interview.

I wonder who they will sucker onto the dock for free?

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:40 pm

Double Post!

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:55 am

cyyz wrote:
Driving Rain wrote: Once or twice he had a couple of guys escorted off the property and then phoned the competition to let them know about them also.
I asked him why he'd sabotage their efforts with other potential employers.
If they were to work for free at my competitors how long would we all stay in business.
And the next day they were at the competition paying for PPCs and the guy was out of business.....

Not a chance yyz. There were 3 operators around that neck of the woods at that time and not one of them ever bit. There are 2 operators remaining now because two for them joined to become one.
The way things worked back then was great. I can't say for sure if it's still the same now but probably.
I company A needed a part because of an AOG, company B would provide it no questions asked. If Company B needed to charter compay A's aircraft if it was available DONE there was never a problem.
They all felt the same and still do. What really gets the small operator is the insurance costs are driving them out of business.
NOTO (Northern Ontario Tourist Operators) should be trying work with the insurance companies to end the death spiral.

Raybanman · Post by **Raybanman** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:50 am

185_guy wrote:I know for a fact that a dockhand that gets 50 hours will be doing good. Also, time in the N6 is likely, if you count right seat time as 'dual", unless the PIC is willing to let ya fly it from the left (while he has no controls, just pedals)

Although It would undoubtedly be fun to fly in the right seat of the norseman, The "time" u log is utterly useless. Prospective employers won't care about 50 hrs dual in a norseman with single controls. Sorry

(I have about 50 hrs I logged dual on a Twotter on floats when I was a dockhand, I just wanted it in my log book. I knew it couldn't count)

As for the 185 time, 50 hrs is nice, but how do you work the empty legs out so you have a dockhand with you? There isn't all that much room in a 185, I'm sure you'll agree, and you need most of it when your hauling 3 fisherman and their eleventy-billion pound bags out to the lodge.

185_guy wrote:The new owners are really nice guys, they do mean well, just have lots to learn. The base manager is a hoot to work with, he can tell jokes till you're blue in the face. The guests tip very well if you can BS em right. But tips cant be relied upon, so that shoulent be considered in determining your salery!! (that learning thing again)

Thats cool, its hard to find places now with a good crew. If you can keep the humor going it makes for some awesome summers. Just remember you can't eat jokes. Or pine cones, but thats another story.

Cheers,
PP

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:07 am

" Although It would undoubtedly be fun to fly in the right seat of the norseman, The "time" u log is utterly useless. Prospective employers won't care about 50 hrs dual in a norseman with single controls. Sorry
(I have about 50 hrs I logged dual on a Twotter on floats when I was a dockhand, I just wanted it in my log book. I knew it couldn't count) "

Raybanman I really feel sorry for someone who does not learn from flying right seat in any airplane...

Why would you waste all that time?

Raybanman · Post by **Raybanman** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:26 am

With respect Cat, I didn't say one wouldn't learn from it. As mentioned I've swamped too. In the Twin Otter (I'm a twotter capt now) I learned tons. I've swamped in single otters and beavers hauling boats, drums, caribou, and generators. I learned immensely from all of it. I was just trying to make the point that the operator in this case may be dangling a carrot by saying that you could log 50 hours, seeming to imply that it may help with getting a N6 job, all while working as an unpaid dockhand. I appologize for the unclear post. Utterly useless was a VERY poor choice of words.

Regards,
PP

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 10:55 am

Raybanman...

I kind of thought that was what you meant..

So I forced you to clarify it..

The Twin Otter is a good work horse and super easy to handle when docking, or beaching...have you tried reverse in the air yet?

Raybanman · Post by **Raybanman** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:11 am

LOL well sort of during my training, thought the wheels were a lil lower than they were while trying to stop her real short so I twist and pull next I know were on the ground very solid-like and pointed at the rhubarb fighting with the tiller, training captain in the right seet looking rather pale. It's an amazing airplane and a blast to fly in the bush thats for sure. I've been riding in one when it was tried during descent tho.

Cheers,
PP

185_guy · Post by **185_guy** » Tue Feb 14, 2006 2:02 pm

185_guy wrote:
I know for a fact that a dockhand that gets 50 hours will be doing good. Also, time in the N6 is likely, if you count right seat time as 'dual", unless the PIC is willing to let ya fly it from the left (while he has no controls, just pedals) Although It would undoubtedly be fun to fly in the right seat of the norseman, The "time" u log is utterly useless. Prospective employers won't care about 50 hrs dual in a norseman with single controls. Sorry

I totally agree with ya rayban, it is a great way to learn about flying, but not the way to log time to look like you have the experience.
The reason i put this info up is to let guys know this is how this operation works and thinks. I hope someone reads all this info, and everyone's advice, before jumping into a place, where they 'may' get to ride around and 'may' get a few tips and log a few hours, that, as mentioned before, is a great learning experience, but means dittley squat for your log book(and your chances of getting on the insurance of another operator next season). I sure hope they(owners) clue in and pay the help, its not right, not fair, especially when you're living that far removed from the year 2006.

CGZMT · Post by **CGZMT** » Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:57 pm

Well Hate to say it i didn't get the dock job. Due to the "FIERCE COMPETITION"??????. Just want to take the interview and get experience and to see what their story was. Hate to be the guy that accepted that job.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:12 am

CGZMT wrote:Well Hate to say it i didn't get the dock job. Due to the "FIERCE COMPETITION"??????. Just want to take the interview and get experience and to see what their story was. Hate to be the guy that accepted that job.

I guess someone else offered to PAY to work dock?

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:38 am

How many have turned down the dockhand spot? I don't see where the "fierce competition" could be coming from unless they've decided to pay half decently for the spot with a guarantee of flight time or found some city boy slick who's going to pay for each hour he does dual on the N6

I for one will not work for free or even the "chance" at 50hrs. Thats a bunch of BS.

WORKING DOCKHAND FOR FREE????????? YEAH THATS WHAT I THINK

it gets better