but mountain wx and flight considerations are not far away. What is reasonable?
CJ
Mountain Time?
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co-joe
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Mountain Time?
Just wondering what you log as mountain time. TC will never ask, but BC operators obviously will want to know. So do you just go with the DAH boundaries of areas 1 and 5? I mean Peace River is hardly mountainous, but it is in area 1. Grand Prairie is as flat as Bird Dog's sister but mountain wx and flight considerations are not far away.
What is reasonable?
CJ
but mountain wx and flight considerations are not far away. What is reasonable?
CJ
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Cat Driver
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Re: Mountain Time?
You only wish you could log this mountain time...you rat bastard!!co-joe wrote: Grand Prairie is as flat as Bird Dog's sister
CJ
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Panama Jack
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Co-joe,
Given the lack of guidance (unlike the definition of instrument time), what do you think these operators want to know? If you honestly feel they view flying around Peace River is "mountain time", and that those are the highest peaks that you would be flying between when working with one of these operators, then log it and be prepared to defend the definition.
Given the lack of guidance (unlike the definition of instrument time), what do you think these operators want to know? If you honestly feel they view flying around Peace River is "mountain time", and that those are the highest peaks that you would be flying between when working with one of these operators, then log it and be prepared to defend the definition.
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co-joe
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Good call Panama,
I just figured that if I am applying with BC operators I should show I'm not totally a flatlander. Some government work requires a min number of "mountain" hours. Obviously I don't want to get laughed out of the room or labeled a bullshitter. I just don't want to be disqualified because I've never flown into Terrace at night in a blizzard. cj
I just figured that if I am applying with BC operators I should show I'm not totally a flatlander. Some government work requires a min number of "mountain" hours. Obviously I don't want to get laughed out of the room or labeled a bullshitter. I just don't want to be disqualified because I've never flown into Terrace at night in a blizzard. cj
I fly close to 747's but unfortunately I don't have any heavy time in my book.
Not to be rude but, if the 25 mile is less than 5000 above the airport elevation, it probably shouldn't be classified as mountain flying.
I have to agree with P.J. If you aren't sure what is different about mountain flying, then you probably haven't done it. Not that it is anything special, just like floats, ski's, or jets, with enough experience it is pretty straightforward.
The other side of the coin is that commercial aircraft generally have the performance to get them out of most of the trouble out there. So, you may fly in the hills a few times a year in a light B200 and wonder what all the fuss is about.
A few recurring bad memories include encounters with severe lee turbulance (you learn to pick that out in a hurry), 3000+ FPM downdrafts (descending with VSI pegged, while at Vy), and going into YXT on the Loc in $hit wx, at night, picking up heavy ice throughout the 8000 ft descent, and wondering what my rate of climb is going to be on the missed.
Not to be rude but, if the 25 mile is less than 5000 above the airport elevation, it probably shouldn't be classified as mountain flying.
I have to agree with P.J. If you aren't sure what is different about mountain flying, then you probably haven't done it. Not that it is anything special, just like floats, ski's, or jets, with enough experience it is pretty straightforward.
The other side of the coin is that commercial aircraft generally have the performance to get them out of most of the trouble out there. So, you may fly in the hills a few times a year in a light B200 and wonder what all the fuss is about.
A few recurring bad memories include encounters with severe lee turbulance (you learn to pick that out in a hurry), 3000+ FPM downdrafts (descending with VSI pegged, while at Vy), and going into YXT on the Loc in $hit wx, at night, picking up heavy ice throughout the 8000 ft descent, and wondering what my rate of climb is going to be on the missed.
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co-joe
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I agree with you bezerker, but there are plenty of places with mountain wx that don't have 5000' MSA's. I caught a 2500'/min downdraft near Longview AB (well east of the divide). I mean solid downdraft, climbing at Vy, helpless as Pee Wee Herman in cell block 'D' at Reiker's Island. 
Anyone who has experience like that under their belt going night IFR into the rocks has my respect. BC flyers get some of the best experience on the planet. That's why I want to go. cjpicking up heavy ice throughout the 8000 ft descent, and wondering what my rate of climb is going to be on the missed.
I think you guys are missing the obvious: Transport should provide the definition of loggable "mountain time". They're so good at that paper stuff, I'm sure it would be a good definition that we all can live with and agree on. While they're at it, Transport can define cross-country time, instrument time, etc.
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just curious
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Yeah, that'd help 
Esoteric categories such as:
As recently as the past week that has been shown to be true, in blood safety terms. There are a number of things in life that I would change to make it easier for newer in-experienced people to get into out profession. Changing the requirements in this area or in their definition isn't something I would or could change.
A float driver from Uranium City, while able to navigate using lakes like a hot damn would be out of their element running down the coast from Rupert to Van in the very same Beaver on an average day.
A Norontair 5000 hour Twin Otter driver (flying pavement to pavement) running the same machine off a gravel esker in the Barrens east of the 'Knife would be dead in a week.
I can think of no better way to write off a new aviator than to send him to Bronson Creek.
Simply put, Coastal Time is flying around the BC coast, in an operation that features flights along and into those little coastal inlets, with their low ceilings and fog. Lab and the North Shore of Quebec could be lumped into that. Flying a 185 Red Lake to Pikangikum could not.
Off-Strip time is flying into an unprepared surface such as a shingle beach, gravel bar, tundra or esker. Flying a citabria in and out of Caledon Gliding Club's grass strip does not count.
Mountain Time can be described as flying into areas where the terms Katabatic, Jump Winds, Lenticular, Lee, subsidence, and density altitude are all regular considerations. Flying a Navajo from Edmonton to Calgary International cannot.
Gaining that experience can only be safely obtained by flying with someone else who has that experience and then being released to try it yourself in little tiny slices at a time. For those who would argue that they through some freakish aspect of genetics possess the inate ability to do any of these without any further training... The North of Canada and the coast of Labrador and BC would yield many wrecks and bodies to argue against it.
Esoteric categories such as:
- Mountain time
- Off-strip time
- Coastal time
As recently as the past week that has been shown to be true, in blood safety terms. There are a number of things in life that I would change to make it easier for newer in-experienced people to get into out profession. Changing the requirements in this area or in their definition isn't something I would or could change.
A float driver from Uranium City, while able to navigate using lakes like a hot damn would be out of their element running down the coast from Rupert to Van in the very same Beaver on an average day.
A Norontair 5000 hour Twin Otter driver (flying pavement to pavement) running the same machine off a gravel esker in the Barrens east of the 'Knife would be dead in a week.
I can think of no better way to write off a new aviator than to send him to Bronson Creek.
Simply put, Coastal Time is flying around the BC coast, in an operation that features flights along and into those little coastal inlets, with their low ceilings and fog. Lab and the North Shore of Quebec could be lumped into that. Flying a 185 Red Lake to Pikangikum could not.
Off-Strip time is flying into an unprepared surface such as a shingle beach, gravel bar, tundra or esker. Flying a citabria in and out of Caledon Gliding Club's grass strip does not count.
Mountain Time can be described as flying into areas where the terms Katabatic, Jump Winds, Lenticular, Lee, subsidence, and density altitude are all regular considerations. Flying a Navajo from Edmonton to Calgary International cannot.
Gaining that experience can only be safely obtained by flying with someone else who has that experience and then being released to try it yourself in little tiny slices at a time. For those who would argue that they through some freakish aspect of genetics possess the inate ability to do any of these without any further training... The North of Canada and the coast of Labrador and BC would yield many wrecks and bodies to argue against it.
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Cat Driver
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qqqqqqqq
Last edited by A.W. on Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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just curious
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If you look in the CARS, there is mention of "Designated Mountainous areas". Minimum enroute altitudes are higher in the mountains, at one time you could not fly single engine IFR in DMA and there are other references to DMA's so the AIP spells out what is designated as mountainous. For those of you that are comprehension challenged, they draw pictures. And why is everyone slagging the approach into YXT. That is a piece of cake.
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