Canadian Values

[LH]

costermonger--------sorry bud, but you don't know me and can't know me just from a damn website, so forget about trying to "pigeon-hole" me. I have no intolerance to any race, colour, creed, nationality or religion. I have a son-in-law who is black and a son's godmother who is Vietnamese. They are both immigrants to Canada from the US and Vietnam. They came here with the intention of "becoming" Canadians AND at the same time honouring their own particular traditions, morals and customs of the the countries and cultures they came from. They do this in private and in the open, with the full knowledge and understanding, that their adopted country's culture' laws and traditions do and should remain pre-eminent. They feel this way because Canada is their adopted country and they wished to become Canadians. They reserve the Right.....and well they should, to honour and keep their own celebrations and customs of their ancestors. These items do not infringe in any way on their being Canadians and if/when they might conflict with those of Canada, they realize that those of their adopted country should/will over-rule. This is no surprise to them because they knew of any differences BEFORE they adopted this country as their own and therefore they have no problems whatsoever. They consider it stupid to expect their adopted contry to change for them because they are in the minority and because their homelands would not change either under those same conditions. Many. many immigrants came to this country before them and adapted to the country of Canada and it is THEY who are now offended that some others don't wish to do the same and demand that "special laws" be made to accomodate them.

Is Canada or any country in North America considered by others worldwide to be a Wiccan, Pagan, Muslim, Shintoist, Sikh or Buddhist culture? If it is not, what is it recognized as? If people immigrate to Canada, what should they expect to see as religious observances? Should they be aghast to see Chrsitian churches or Bibles in courtrooms? Should they also be offended to find out that our laws, morals and culture do not agree with theirs as a result? Could it not also be because their culture and former homelands are different than their adopted one and is that wrong? Are we not allowed to have out our culture, laws and traditions the same as other countries worlwide? If those things come into conflict with those that come here from other cultures, is it us who are "intolernt" if WE don't change? If we do change and there are different laws and rules for each culture who immigrates here, which culture's traditions do we observe and which ones don't we? What do we say then to those that we don't observe and honour? Why are they left out?
I do not wish to live in any Canada where everyone is not treated the same under the law and there are special laws for special groups based on religion, creed, culture,, colour or race. I expect ALL Canadians to be treated equally. If the minority are offended by the wishes of the majority, then that is called "Democracy" where the wishes of the majority always outweigh those of the minority. The very foundation of our political system and culture is based on those ideals. If people immigrate here, then they should know before-hand that this is what they will "live in" and adapt. If they don't wish to, then they should realize that they made a bad choice and move to some other country where they will be more comfortable..

Whatever you do Costermonger, DO NOT "pigeon-hole" those like me as racists, intolerants or "red-necks" because we hold different views and opinions than you do. I hide-behind no other values to express my opinion and say what's on my mind. With me, you definitely put your foot in your mouth because I'm surrounded by people from different cultures and happy and proud to be so. Canada is made-up of a lot of different opinions and I'll suggest very strongly to you, that you'll find the majority thinking as I do. That does NOT mean that you can label us racially or religiously "intolerant".........when many voicing those opinions are also recent immigrants themselves and learned to adapt.......with pride.

[niss]

Here is a question that I know is going to spark a little, should immigrants whos religion dictates to do so be allowed to wear a turbin in the RCMP or military, or should they be forced to adapt?

Niss

[costermonger]

costermonger--------sorry bud, but you don't know me and can't know me just from a damn website, so forget about trying to "pigeon-hole" me. I have no intolerance to any race, colour, creed, nationality or religion. I have a son-in-law who is black and a son's godmother who is Vietnamese.

I'm making no attempt to pigeon-hole you bud, the only part of my post adressed to you was with regard to the fact that every major religion in the world (with the exception of one) has one or more holiday around the same time as Christmas, but since you seemed to view this as a personal affront, I'll respond to what you posted.

They are both immigrants to Canada from the US and Vietnam. They came here with the intention of "becoming" Canadians AND at the same time honouring their own particular traditions, morals and customs of the the countries and cultures they came from.

Well, good on them. I don't believe that "becoming" Canadian has anything to with religion.

They do this in private and in the open, with the full knowledge and understanding, that their adopted country's culture' laws and traditions do and should remain pre-eminent.

I agree with that but again, culture != religion. Laws != religion.

They feel this way because Canada is their adopted country and they wished to become Canadians. They reserve the Right.....and well they should, to honour and keep their own celebrations and customs of their ancestors. These items do not infringe in any way on their being Canadians and if/when they might conflict with those of Canada, they realize that those of their adopted country should/will over-rule. This is no surprise to them because they knew of any differences BEFORE they adopted this country as their own and therefore they have no problems whatsoever. They consider it stupid to expect their adopted contry to change for them because they are in the minority and because their homelands would not change either under those same conditions.

I agree with that as well.

Many. many immigrants came to this country before them and adapted to the country of Canada and it is THEY who are now offended that some others don't wish to do the same and demand that "special laws" be made to accomodate them.

The law is the law. It must be universal or it has no meaning. Again, not a whole lot of dissagreement here...

Is Canada or any country in North America considered by others worldwide to be a Wiccan, Pagan, Muslim, Shintoist, Sikh or Buddhist culture? If it is not, what is it recognized as?

Culture is not intrinsically tied to religion, LH, not in this part of the world. Canada has a hell of a lot of Sikhs, Buddhits, Muslims, and by far more Christians and Jews, but that doesn't really have a lot to do with the greater culture. It impacts it, yes, but this country is too diverse to simply label as having a Christian culture - whatever that is.

If people immigrate to Canada, what should they expect to see as religious observances?

They should expect to see whatever religious observances they desire. After all, more than a few have come here over the years simply for that reason.

Should they be aghast to see Chrsitian churches or Bibles in courtrooms?

No, nor should we be aghast to see them worship in their own way. I personally don't believe a person should be forced to swear an oath upon a book they do not believe in, but that's a personal preference I don't expect you to share.

Should they also be offended to find out that our laws, morals and culture do not agree with theirs as a result?

If they are, what of if? Not everybody's going to like it here. Hell, it's bloody obvious from this board that people who have lived their whole lives here don't neccessarily like it here. If an immigrant comes here and finds the culture or laws disagreeable, so be it. We're not going to change the laws and the culture is far greater than an individual so the problem will either sort itself out by that person leaving or simply learning to live within the system. I don't think this is so vastly different from what you're suggesting (that immigrants just have to adapt) but there IS room for sensitivity in the matter!

Could it not also be because their culture and former homelands are different than their adopted one and is that wrong? Are we not allowed to have out our culture, laws and traditions the same as other countries worlwide?

Absolutely, but immigrants who arrive in this country will continue to have their own culture and traditions and even laws to some extent. This shouldn't be suprising - Canada does not have an assimilate or leave sort of attitude like some nations.

If those things come into conflict with those that come here from other cultures, is it us who are "intolernt" if WE don't change?

You are intolerant if you can't simply be sensitive to other's religions and cultures. This flows both ways - if you're wished a merry christmas and are offended because it's not christmas to you, it's kwanza (for example) - you're just as intolerant as the people who get offended when stores put up happy holidays instead of the traditional merry christmas. When you're getting offended by the way people express their good will towards you because they didn't do it in exactly the way you want it done because of your religion and upbringing, then guess what, you. are. intolerant.

If we do change and there are different laws and rules for each culture who immigrates here, which culture's traditions do we observe and which ones don't we?

It's not about laws, it's about observance. The law will not change, nor should it. But you're hitting on exactly what started the whole "happy holidays" phenomenon, why cater to one specific religion or group when there's a catch all phrase that doesn't alienate anybody? Well, it alienates the sort of people who can't be pleased unless things are exactly the way they would do things if they were in charge, but this cannot be stopped.

What do we say then to those that we don't observe and honour? Why are they left out?

Good question, one I might ask of you. Canada is predominantly Christian. Should we simply cater to the masses and let the rest just live with it? I don't think so.

I do not wish to live in any Canada where everyone is not treated the same under the law and there are special laws for special groups based on religion, creed, culture,, colour or race. I expect ALL Canadians to be treated equally. If the minority are offended by the wishes of the majority, then that is called "Democracy" where the wishes of the majority always outweigh those of the minority. The very foundation of our political system and culture is based on those ideals. If people immigrate here, then they should know before-hand that this is what they will "live in" and adapt. If they don't wish to, then they should realize that they made a bad choice and move to some other country where they will be more comfortable..

No disagreement here.

Whatever you do Costermonger, DO NOT "pigeon-hole" those like me as racists, intolerants or "red-necks" because we hold different views and opinions than you do.

Well, don't jump to the automatic conclusion that somebody who answers a question you asked in a previous post is trying to call you a racist, bigot, red-neck or even that they happen to hold an opinion particularly different from your own.

I hide-behind no other values to express my opinion and say what's on my mind.

Then I presume you wouldn't author a piece about how you feel about immigrants and multiculturalism and then proceed to claim that what you've written speaks for Canada as a whole.

With me, you definitely put your foot in your mouth because I'm surrounded by people from different cultures and happy and proud to be so.

How so? You asked what everybody else was celebrating in December, I told you. Everybody's celebrating something - which apparently is contrary to what you previously believed.

Canada is made-up of a lot of different opinions

Smartest thing you've said yet...

and I'll suggest very strongly to you, that you'll find the majority thinking as I do.

...followed up by that. Too bad.

That does NOT mean that you can label us racially or religiously "intolerant".........when many voicing those opinions are also recent immigrants themselves and learned to adapt.......with pride.

If you believe half of what you profess to, I have no issue with your beliefs. I think you're pretty quick to jumpt to conclusions, but beyond that I agree with a lot of what you've said here.

Now try to keep your blood pressure down as you respond.

[niss]

Well Niss, I for one think that these people should be allowed to wear the headdress of their faiths as part of the uniform, after all, the protection of our people and belifs are what these people are protecting.

[cyyz]

Well Niss, I for one think that these people should be allowed to wear the headdress of their faiths as part of the uniform, after all, the protection of our people and belifs are what these people are protecting.

So can the other officers wear a turban??? Those with out a belief??

Would Mr. Sikh frown upon someone else wearing a turban instead of a cap???

[LH]

Costermonger

1) Canada is a country founded on Christian beliefs and it can be found throughout and deep within our laws and governments. The Criminal Code of Canada is loaded with sections whose roots stem from Christian beliefs. Whether someone swears an oath on a Bible or just swears to tell the truth means the same thing. Anyone who believes that allowing someone to swear an oath without the Bible is somehow granting them a special exception, doesn't understand what swearing an oath means in court. The "operative" word is "swearing" and not the term "on the Holy Bible".

2) I know of no school system in my part of the world that foists any kind of religion on ANYBODY. Those that do not wish to participate or be present during anything that they consider Christian, are allowed to be excused to other areas of the schools. There is NOTHING that happens in my wife's classroom or High Schoool of 2600 students that could be decalred even the slightest bit religious in any way. The closest item might be a Christmas concert and those who do not wish to be part of any of that do not have to do so........and nobody questions that.

3) The point of my post was that I have no problem with immigrants coming to Canada. Any idiot knows that we need as many as we can get. I also have no problem with immigrants bringing their religions and cultures with them because my own ancestors to Canada did the same. What I do have a problem with is "special laws" being enacted to give certain groups Rights that the rest of Canada doesn't have and done because of religion or culture. Again, you and I are not allowed to wear a knife into a courtroom nor are our children allowed to wear one into any school or classroom across Canada.........UNLESS they are members of a certain religion. To me and those I associate with in my travels across Canada, ALL consider that to be wrong. Open your mouth about that and quickly you are labelled "racist" or "religiously intolerant" because that is not a "politically correct" thing to say. My reply to those that do not agree with me is this........the Seventh Day Adventists (Mormons) believe that their religion dictates that they should be allowed to take more than one wife............so how come they aren't allowed to do that under Canadian law? They aren't allowed because it contravenes the Canadian Criminal Code and the idea is based on one of the laws that is Christian-based.

4) If you or anyone else lives in a part of Canada where public schools force anything religious upon students then that is WRONG. There are schools, colleges and universities across Canada that do, but they are operated by particular religious entities and that is their Right to do so under Canadian law. I consider myself a Christian although a rather poor one, BUT I would not have tolerated for one minute having my kids forced to listen to ANY religious doctrine or belief and that includes my own religion. As I've told my kids many times over the years..."I definitely believe in God, but I don't have all the much trust in many of his Ministers or some of what comes out of their mouths".

Lastly, apply to come here legally, bring your family, we'll help you find work and get established, obey the laws of the land, celebrate your cultures at YOUR expense, BUT do not expect us to change our laws, customs and traditions to suit YOU. We have always been a nation of many religions and cultures, but we all obey the same laws.........do not therefore expect us to change anything for your benefit only. So when you bring your religious 6" knife to court, please understand that we don't allow that and if we protest, we aren't "out to get you, your religion or culture". The law is there for a valid reason and has been in place long before you were born. Perhaps that is allowed in your homeland, BUT you are not in your homeland......you are in another country and culture called "Canada".....and if your cultural ideas conflict with ours then perhaps you chose the wrong door to open.

[costermonger]

LH

Again, I agree with more or less everything you said. My beef is with the "War on Christmas" people.

[LH]

That's very simple to me, BUt "intolerant" to others in our midst. Toronto, Ont is in Canada. If Toronto City Hall has been erecting a CHRISTMAS tree for decades and wish to call it EXACTLY that in the media, then that is EXACTLY what they should do. If people are "up in arms" about it, then do the democratic thing and hold a plebicite on the issue. If the MAJORITY wish to keep it that way, then the majority rules in a democracy. IF some person, Canadian or not, feels that that is religion or a particular religion being crammed-down their throats, then again........the majority of votes "hold the day" in a democracy. Case closed.

I would much rather have it that way, then ONE particular person or 13-20 people on some board deciding that issue for the other 4M people of the GTA. I've seen many democratic votes go in directions that I distaste or in some instances abhor, BUT I'm like Winston Churchill once stated about Democracy...."it has it's faults, but until a better system comes along, it will suffice".

[costermonger]

However if they wish to erect a sign that says "Happy Holidays" rather than "Merry Christmas" people should STFU about it. The message is infinitely more important than the words used to convey it - no matter how much some don't realize that.

[priest]

I agree with exeption to the whole God in schools bit, I believe that seperating religion from state must be held to the T. I as a Jew do not like religious propaganda being prostituted to me

If you don't want religion "prostituted" to you, then go to a public school. If you're attending a Catholic/Christian school, then you should expect it to be presented with Christian principles.

[niss]

I mean in reference to the signs on the highway, on the bus, the jo hos, the mormans..


I was actually chased down by these fuckers, can you believe it full out sprint!

People putting up signs saying jesus died for your sins, jesus is the reason for the season.

I am not offended but rather annoyed.

Thing of it as PROUD TO BE GAY and guys just constantly having sweaty man make out sessions in the street just because they can. Its kind of annoying. People go to church to be preached to, not on the bus and certainly not down highway 11.

[shitdisturber]

Why shouldn't Mormons be allowed more than one wife? A better question would be, why would they want to? Can you imagine the nagging?

[CID]

I mean in reference to the signs on the highway, on the bus, the jo hos, the mormans..


I was actually chased down by these fuckers, can you believe it full out sprint!

People putting up signs saying jesus died for your sins, jesus is the reason for the season.

I am not offended but rather annoyed.

Wow. For a guy who claims to have been the subject of racial/religious intolerance, you sure do have a knack for being intolerant of others. I wonder if mormons would appreciate being called "f***ers".

I wonder if Jehovah Witnesses would appreciate being called "jo hos". My suspicions have been verified. I now understand who and what I'm dealing with. If you don't mind, try to keep the profanity to a minimum in the future. We want to set a good example for the younger folks visiting this site.

Cheers

[niss]

CID,

If we really want to set a good example for younger folks than you should leave.

My comments about the mormans are based entirely on my experiances with them and are in no way shape or form un founded.

I have been constantly approached, and even when i told them to literally @#$! off they kept at it.

What suspicions CID, while I have been putting maybe a bit of rage out there but still providing some intelligent conversation you have plagued this forum with nothing but fodder. You are the kind of person who loves confrontation and hides behind the anonymitiy of the internet.

MY NAME IS NISSUN FEINER AND I LIVE IN BARRIE, ONTARIO. I THINK CID IS A DOUCHEBAG!

[LH]

costermonger --------IF the MAJORITY of Torontonians know that a Christmas tree in front of Toronto City Hall is being changed from being called a "Chrisitmas tree" to assuage the wishes of a minority, then "No"....they shouldn't STFU and they shouldn't be called "intolerant" either. They are the majority and it is their Right to have their wishes adhered to regardless. IF however, the majority don't care or see nothing wrong with that, then so be it. Either way it works out the same.........the majority have spoken. The second that it starts to not work like that we have an "autocracy" or "dictatorship" where the wishes of the majority are paid no heed at all.......and that's not a Canada that I wish to live in.

I used Toronto and the Christmas tree example only because it made national news. There's tons of other examples coast to coast.

[costermonger]

which culture's traditions do we observe and which ones don't we? What do we say then to those that we don't observe and honour? Why are they left out?

...

[LH]

costermonger -------the culture of the of the MAJORITY of a country's population denotes the culture of that country at home and abroad.........and that applies to ALL countries. It does not necessarily mean that others are not welcome and it could well be the contrary to the extreme even. Those travelling, visiting or emigrating to that given country must know that laws, customs and the culture of that country are not going to change for their arrival, however welcome........and that it is the wishes of the majority of that country that remain pre-eminent at ALL times and in all matters. That does not preclude other cultures from living amongst such people and practicing their religions, cultural celebrations and traditions nor does it mean that they must do the opposite for those of their new country. It is when they expect special laws and exceptions that the cultures will collide and they as the minority must respect the will of the majority or have that majority expect them to leave their midst. If not, they can and should expect some form of trouble because the wishes of the majority are being ignored. The second that that happens concerning anything or any subject, that willingness to make new immigrants welcome recedes quickly. It would be safe to say, that that applies to ALL cultures and countries worldwide.

[Driving Rain]

I just pulled out my old Canadian School Atlas and have dashed a letter off to the publisher. I made a strong suggestion that they rename Christmas Island Holiday Island so there is no confusion.

[CID]

Way to come through for us Niss. The more you write, the more you prove my point.

Cheers.

[niss]

CID,

My calling you a douchbag was juvenile and for that I apologise.

My experience with Mormans has been horrendus, they are a nusance. Right now for my work we are building a church for the mormans.

All their churches come from one set of plans, they are all identical in every single way. They also do not have individual priests to conduct services, the services are broadcasted via satelite and played on tvs all arround the world.

It is a cult, theirfor I can justify to atleast my self for saying that all mormans are the same. They are all identical in how they conduct themselves.

I do not concider myself being prejudice because I havent met all the mormans in the world, but In reality they are all the same, literally.

[LH]

Niss -------ALL Mormons are not the same. I've worked WITH them and FOR them and that's a generalization to state that. I have no doubt that you have met the ones you say, but again, they are NOT all the same. I've also worked with and for Mennonites. There are those that will not allow a radio, TV, alcohol or playing cards on their property or in their midst and they are termed "Fundamentalists". There are also those who can swear like a Marine Corps RSM, drink alcohol and have radios and TV's all over their homes. Neither group worhips with the other and if they attend the same church, there are two separate services on a Sunday. The "Fundamentalists" have theirs in German and the others in English only. The Lutheran Church in my area has the same thing.......one service on a Sunday in German for the older members and another for the younger crowd in English. One takes the Bible literally and the other doesn't.......but they're all Lutherans.

[Special K]

Couldn't all 'Religons' be considered a cult to the non-religous?

K