Cleared to Ft. McMurray - Airport, Beacon, or VOR?

airway · Post by **airway** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:32 pm

I hear this clearance all the time:

"cleared direct to Ft. McMurray".

Usually I'm just on a vector before this, flight planned for the VOR airway.
Do I go to the airport, the beacon, or the VOR?

My vote is for the airport.

Turkey · Post by **Turkey** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:47 pm

Oh, this will be a good one.

pika · Post by **pika** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:03 pm

It's pretty inexpensive to use the radio so why don't you ask the controller giving you the clearance?

Flybabe · Post by **Flybabe** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:03 pm

Airport. If they want you to go direct to the VOR, you'll be cleared to the VOR. If to the NDB, then cleared to the NDB.

Turkey · Post by **Turkey** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:06 pm

airway wrote:Do I go to the airport, the beacon, or the VOR?

...or the town site, or the bus station, or the hockey rink (all of which may have geographical coordinates.) None of the above are acceptable clearances. The destination "Ft McMurray" obviously means different things to different people at different times.

twin turbines · Post by **twin turbines** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:31 pm

I agree that it means the airport, although atc should and usually does specify in the clearnance....Like mentioned above, just confirm with ATC.

Desert Duster · Post by **Desert Duster** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 7:54 pm

Just had a conversation with TC about this a few months back. It will be a fix, either a VOR or ADF, because you must have a holding point at the end of your clearance limit. If it is the airport where do you hold? Either way it is a bad clearance, and if there is both a VOR and ADF at Fort McMurray you will need to Clarify that before accepting. Just my understanding from the conversation.

airway · Post by **airway** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:07 pm

Desert Duster wrote:It will be a fix, either a VOR or ADF, because you must have a holding point at the end of your clearance limit. If it is the airport where do you hold?

Why can't I hold at the airport on the RNAV?

Turkey · Post by **Turkey** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 8:29 pm

I guess you can. No different than if you were cleared to the airport.

The problem is, ATC might think you were proceding to somewhere else. In Fort McMurray, YMM is 2.8 nm east of the airport and MM is 3.3 miles west of the airport. If ATC doesn't know where you're going, how do they coordinate other traffic? Which runway do they launch traffic from, without knowing where you're going?

I don't think this confusion is your fault. ATC owns the confusion by getting sloppier and sloppier with their clearances.

wsguy · Post by **wsguy** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:03 pm

And what are you going to do in the event of a lost comm?

When are you going to leave your holding point and transition from your clearance limit for the approach?

What does your flight plan say?

Is the last point prior to the airport the VOR? If that is the case .... this is your new clearance limit.

The amended clearance you have recieved is an amendment to your flightplan. That flight plan is basically a contract between you (PIC) and ATC. This way if there is a loss of communications both parties should be able to proceed with the the lost comm procedure at the appropriate time. If one does not know what the clearance means, it would be very prudent for the crew to get a clarification from ATC. It is never a good idea to be uncertain what your clearance actually is.

Desert Duster has it correct. Years ago I had this discussion in the flight deck of a B727 after being given a clearance direct to Winnipeg. We had the same discussion as a crew (3 opinions) . After 30 minutes of discussion I simply just asked the controlling center. Answer: The YWG VOR of course!

Final answer!

airway · Post by **airway** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:39 pm

wsguy wrote:And what are you going to do in the event of a lost comm?

Proceed direct to the airport and hold if my flight planned time is not up.

When are you going to leave your holding point and transition from your clearance limit for the approach?

When my planned time is up. I won't hold if I arrive past that time.

What does your flight plan say?

Doesn't matter, ATC has negated the whole thing by clearing me direct to my destination.

Is the last point prior to the airport the VOR? If that is the case .... this is your new clearance limit.

When you get your clearance on the ground, ATC clears you to the Ft. McMurray airport via flight planned route. This would make the airport my clearance limit.

The amended clearance you have recieved is an amendment to your flightplan. !

wsguy: I agree that it is a bad clearance, and I should get clarification. Just replying for the sake of discussion.

C-FABH · Post by **C-FABH** » Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:10 pm

If heard at NCTI, usually cleared direct the Ft McMurry Beer Store

wsguy · Post by **wsguy** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:48 am

airway:

My questions were meant to be retorical. But seeing as you have choosen to answer them.... I will try and expand further. Glad to see we agree that the clearance is poor and should be clarified. That puts us both on the same page at least.

"Proceed direct to the airport and hold if my flight planned time is not up. "
Where would you choose to hold? VOR? NDB? Over the airport?

What does your flight plan say?

Doesn't matter, ATC has negated the whole thing by clearing me direct to my destination.
Does being cleared to the airport cancel your flight plan... or does it amend your flight plan?

The example given was"Cleared direct to Ft. Mc Murray" Poor clearance... if you are "cleared to Fort McMurray for an approach"... that is one thing... if you are cleared to "Ft. McMurray"... well that is another.

"When you get your clearance on the ground, ATC clears you to the Ft. McMurray airport via flight planned route. This would make the airport my clearance limit. "
Interesting.... does that mean you are cleared to land at Ft. McMurray because you were given a clearance on the ground? (Yeah I know, it is Ft.McMurray Radio up there and you are not cleared to land anyways.) Ft. McMurray is the destination for sure... but this is not your clearance limit if you arrive ahead of ETA in a comm failure scenerio. Something to remember.... but I am certain you are very well aware of that fact.

I think all this discussion demonstrates just how poor a clearance it is to be issued in this fashion.

I know it is common up there.... did the run with WestJet for a couple of years. I maintain that just because they often do it this way, it is not the correct way to do business.

It really is a clearance that should be clarified. .. at least that is what I always do.

Can you imagine discussing this with your FO while IMC arriving 10 minutes early and traffic ahead and having a comm failure? Not the best time to be asking this question. And you would really want to be darn sure you were following the correct procedure and going to the right fix or Nav Facility.

Just because the common answer is "go the the airport" ... does not mean this is correct.

Is it a big deal? Most of the time: no. Yet this has been a good question as it is a common occurance.... and the confusion is very common.

But hey, maybe I have this all wrong Doesn't hurt to ask.

Mac · Post by **Mac** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:44 am

If your destination lies in another IFR unit's juristiction (YYT to YHZ), then the controller should clear you to the airport. On initial contact with the receiving center, you will be cleared to a fix. If your destination lies in the same IFR unit's AOR, you are supposed to be cleared to a fix. The controller should specify in the clearance "Halifax Airport" or "Halifax VOR". As the previous posts have said, just ask.

flyboy1234 · Post by **flyboy1234** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:02 am

Hi guys, in my experience, when a controller clears you in this fashion ie.'cleared to ft Mac' it is to the airport and this will only happen if certain conditions exist. You are on an ifr flight plan but the wx is vfr and he/she will request you to call the airport 'in sight for the visual' and they normally do this for companies who are familliar with the area. Otherwise, under imc the controller will never clear you to the airport, but to a fix for whatever approach is in use. This is only my experience/understanding though. cheers!

tripleseven · Post by **tripleseven** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:40 am

Does it really matter if the VOR is on the field, like it usually is?

flyboy1234 · Post by **flyboy1234** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:54 am

Sometimes there is no vor, just ndb, which might not be on the field or a gps app.

Flybabe · Post by **Flybabe** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:31 am

WSguy - are you saying they would issue that obscure clearance in IFR conditions? I can see that either in severe clear or perhaps as a clearance that is amended further at a later time.. like if center is really busy at that moment for some reason. I can see them doing that if they need to get an aircraft headed the right way after vectoring.

If so, that's just plain wierd and definitely sloppy.

Axial Flow · Post by **Axial Flow** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:23 pm

I think it is a poor clearance and we get it alot going into Toronto Island. Usually get "direct city center" or direct to the field advise in sight or direct the island...there is no NDB or VOR named city center there so its obvious that he means the airport. I am wondering if we took the /g out of the flight plan would he still clear us direct city center when if we had the old standard IFR instruments would only be able the Girbraltar NDB.

marktheone · Post by **marktheone** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:35 pm

It means direct the airport and they (in my experience) are usually setting you up on a good angle for the approach.

wsguy · Post by **wsguy** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:42 pm

Flybabe,

VFR/IFR... either way it is not a good clearance.

blaster · Post by **blaster** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:31 pm

It's the VOR or NDB NOT the airport. If you are cleared to the "airport" you will be cleared to as such. I agree it is not all that straight forward...but I am right, my mom told me so.

airway · Post by **airway** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:55 pm

From what I can remember, ATC has only given me a clearance like this when the wx at the destination is VFR.

In that case, it would not be critical in a comm failure.

McPhoo · Post by **McPhoo** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:04 pm

In the many times I have recieved this same clearance in CYMM it has always been when the airport is VFR. So for example if I am in the decent out of FL210 or something and am still on the IFR flightplan, ATC will give the clearance because they know I will be cancelling as soon as I have the airport in sight. Now you can argue that it is a sloppy clearance but I think it is efficiant. The controller could clear me for the ILS RW25 via OBRAD and go through the whole read back and so on just to have me cancell 5 miles later. What's the point. While I am at it, I will also say that if you are cleared to Ft. McMurry, you are cleared to the airport period. My flight plan says the airport. CYXD Direct CYMM. Not the NDB. Not the VOR or anything else. Is the clearance vague? Only if you are being anal about it.

wsguy · Post by **wsguy** » Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:55 pm

The tone of this thread has just taken a negative tone.... WSGUY switching enroute frequecies.... have a nice day.

Cleared to Ft. McMurray - Airport, Beacon, or VOR?

Cleared to Ft. McMurray - Airport, Beacon, or VOR?

Re: Cleared to Ft. McMurry - Airport, Beacon, or VOR?