Sonic Blue Owner - On tape

[1LostPilot]

Ya check it out...Navair killz. Company can rot in hell. (owner and son)

@#$! that company.....fuckin killerz .any questions? bring it!!!!!!!!!!!

toolow_flaps....have another drink / line / pill buddy...

Yeah...I have a question for you...why are you such a mindless fucking moron? (your type of language, not mine)

[2low]

ya . buddy. they kill..(thus your handel)..talk about moron! Gesus fucking christ you idiot.

Don't mean to say I dont resent your working for free...good luck on your new pay to work job ( your type of job not mine)

[scabber]

cyyz is an idiot....Straight up.

Whoever you are.. go back to school and fucking get a clue. better yet, just grab a 9mm, and put one in your empty skull.

[learcapt]

Hello CYYZ. Not sure about BC, but in Ontario a tape of a conversation, etc IS admisible in Court as only one of the parties authorizes the use of the tape. That sounds crazy, but that is indeed the law! So it will be allowed.

[spoiler]

sb pilots didnt do shit for the company. we didnt push limits or fly unsafe for them.

I have spoken to former sb pilots, and I call bullshit on that.

[CID]

This isn't eaxactly damning evidence in my opinion. Pretty much every operator in the country instills the "no snag" rule in their pilots to some extent.

The really meat to this will lie in the investigation and to what degree the pilots participated. To tell you the truth, I don't see anything particulary criminal about delaying snagging something like a CVR to keep the airplane flying while a new one was being aquired. But there are plenty of snags that shouldn't be allowed to slide. I think most of us are intelligent enough to know what those snags are, but there are a great deal of pilots that don't.

This practice of delaying or not writing up snags needs to end, but I think SonicBlue is being unduly crucified here. I detect a great deal of hypocricy in the posts in this thread.

[Snow_Bird 1]

Hey toolow_flaps

Move on. Every time you open your mouth you're tarnishing the memories of our friends. Get a life and stay off the bottle!

Next time you feel like posting something you would be better off to get retarded Orangutan to type for you.


Cheers

[altiplano]

-

[cyyz]

I've heard a lot about Ranj and how he operates long ago. It's unfortunate that guys like CYYZ are out there trying to defend him.

*slaps forehead* I was gonna just delete my post because of Playball, because it makes sense he(ranj) would have wanted less/fewer write ups, I should have thought of it that way too, my mistake...

But to continue the "debate."

I'm not defending the owner, Im accusing the pilots who are "praising" the actions of the guys who bought a PPC, and then taped him saying "oh you work for free, and get hours" and the pilots going with smiles "okay," to wake up.

Then him telling them to fly unsafe machinery on tape and them smiling and going "okay"

And then they go out and fly with bought PPCs, for nothing and not safe rides, because it's all "okay" because they have it on tape, and telling their pax, don't worry, "it's all okay"

and Lear, thank you, okay, they can "try to bring it in?" but I'm sure that it has to pass through scrutiny and their has to be some sort of "barrier," that has to be proved so they can actually admit it in court, or atleast I hope so, otherwise I'm gonna just go make my own recordings...

[2low]

LOL

[Sulako]

too_low flaps, I edited your song transcript. You can't seem to spell "bunny" correctly for the life of you.


//back to your flamewar now.

[2low]

Thanks buddy

[Big Pistons Forever]

I am disapointed in the level of discourse on this thread and debated about contributing to it. I have never worked or had anything to do with SB. I will add one comment that represents only a personal observation and opinion by me, for what it is worth here goes.

About 2 weeks before the crash I was sitting in the Victoria flying club coffee shop. A SB PA31 was sitting about 150 feet away on the ramp. I saw what I would consider 3 grounding snags on this aircraft right from the coffee shop window.

1) The right gear door was covered in oil.

2) Both "D" doors were not flush with the wing. They were definately hanging down a bit

3) There was a noticable streak of exhaust residue behind the upper cowl turbo cooling louver.

I watched a pilot walk out to this airplane, fire it up and blast off. Seeing this I find it easier to believe the stories about SB maintance practices.
What ever the motivation that day, with that airplane, the pilot had a choice, fly a broken aircraft or ground it untill the snags were fixed. He chose to fly it. He, not the company owner, TC , or anybody else is the only one at the end of the day that can take responsibilty for that.

[RadMan]

I think there are 2 competing realities when it comes to a pilot's aviation career.

On the one hand most pilots absolutely love what we do, and can't imagine doing anything else. It's almost like a religion really. We all know that pull to flying exists and that the phrase "I am a pilot" means much much more than having a licence. That phrase defines our very existance. At least it did for me for a while. This drives us to keep flying and advance our careers.

On the other hand, most pilots feel a sense of responsibility to their passengers and families to not take them up in a machine that is not fit or designed to do it. Unfortunately, in our industry all to often (in my experience) these 2 realities come into conflict. There are a lot of shady operators out there and so the pilot has often to make a go / no go choice that involves some pretty strong emotions that can easily cloud judgement.

Rememeber, we are only human and not all have the ability to see the issues clearly, or at least easily, when faced with these all too often competing realities.

For those of you that can very easily choose the "no go" option when appropriate, I applaud you. That is always what I have strived for and in fact it cost me my previous (and in fact very last) aviation job.

For those of you that choose the "go" option when you shouldn't and rationalize it by telling yourself "what else can I do?" or "you have to put up with the sh!t to advance your career" without much second thought, I say give your head a shake, it's people's lives your dealing with. That of your passengers and their families. Damned your career. More on that later.

I think most pilots though, have somewhat of a tug of war in their minds and eventually the "go no go" decision is no longer cut and dried but more of a "how far will I let things go before saying no". For some pilots they let them go pretty far, others, like myself, have (in my case had) a somewhat shorter leash on that. It has been my experience that VERY few pilots will snag everything. For most pilots it becomes a matter of degree.

I think it's easy to talk tough on this forum and denounce anybody who's not capable of immediately "no going" a trip on any little thing. I think it's also easy to deny people who buy ppc's (I did that for a 'ho, didn't help me much though, wouldn't do it again or advise anybody else to) or work for free (never did that, and wouldn't) an opinion. As well, I think it's easy to denounce and deny when a pilot hasn't experienced the ass end of the Canadian Aviation Industry, which by the way is far far bigger (the ass end) then it should be. Unfortunately, many pilots I have encountered see the BS as just something to work through until to move on to AC or WestJet, and not something that needs to be rectified. This distresses me.

I believe that human beings will make mistakes, and are prone to both success and failure. I also believe that to leave the "go no go" decision strictly or heavily to a pilot's willpower because the industry constantly puts pilots in that situation (and laws be damned) is ridiculous. My fiance was having a discussion with a couple of pilots, and they were commenting that the industry needs to put torn down and rebuilt. We both completely agree. As long as pilots are desperate to get the hours, and as long as operators can take advantage of that fact, these problems will continue. And you guys on the podium can talk tough all you want, a sh!t system will yield sh!t safety, sh!t results and pilots with sh!t attitudes.

For the curious, here is my quickie background, so you know where I come from. I had been flying floats (4 summers), teaching (3 winters) and animal tracking flights (1 year). I've purchased a PPC on a Navajo, got maybe 30 hours in 6 months (IFR environment) from the operator, and left because... well, 30 hours in 6 months (paid by the flight hour). Moved from Ontario to BC. Decided to make flying floats a career on the west coast. Got let go from my job after 29 days. Why? Refused the overload for a customer. Customer was like a 3rd of the operator's revenue, boss didn't back me up, he let me go.

After dealing with these kind of pressures all my career (7 years and 2200 hours) I decided enough is enough. I no longer intend to work as a pilot, the industry killed the love I have for flying. It did a pretty good job of it too, as I currently rarely feel the need to take an airplane up at all anymore. As far as I'm concerned being a commercial pilot (floats, instructing, airlines) is a job, like anything else. It's not worth people's lives, and loving it to the point that you would endanger others is irrational. And many operators count on that. Well, not me anymore. I'm moving on to other things.

I just finished training, and will be working installing satellite systems. And you can bet that when a roof is unsafe, I ain't going on it! One of the perks of being an independent contractor. I'm my own boss.


The industry needs to be rebuilt.

[Cat Driver]

Radman:

Your story describes exactly how being a pilot really is..

But as to this...

" Moved from Ontario to BC. Decided to make flying floats a career on the west coast. Got let go from my job after 29 days. Why? Refused the overload for a customer. Customer was like a 3rd of the operator's revenue, boss didn't back me up, he let me go. "

For decades this has been the normal way a lot of operators did business...


But soon TC will make SMS part of every companies operational mandate and you can come back into the industry because there will not be that culture of disregard for regulations...

..Let me know when you return to the promised land of safety and no external pressure coming to your industry with SMS.

Cat

[Driving Rain]

Got let go from my job after 29 days. Why? Refused the overload for a customer. Customer was like a 3rd of the operator's revenue, boss didn't back me up, he let me go.

Is that what he put on your "Record of Employment" ?
What exactly did he put on your record of employment for reason(s) for your dismissal?
Did he hire another pilot right after letting you go?

Cat knows where I'm headed here.

[Cat Driver]

"Cat knows where I'm headed here. "

[Disco Stu]

Heard the tape........he says that if the snag affects safety or if pilots are worried about it, to snag it.

Certainly nothing incriminating.

Why snag something minor, that doesn't affect flight safety, away from base grounding the airplane? Why not wait till arriving back in YVR?

What is wrong with pilots using their discretion within the bounds of the law and the MEL? Isn't that one of the fundamentals of being a captain, PDM?

[cyyz]

Heard the tape........he says that if the snag affects safety or if pilots are worried about it, to snag it.

You lie.. Always sticking up for management you brown noser.. =) <kidding>

Radman, I loved your post... Excellent...

/leaves the thread.

[Disco Stu]

Heard the tape........he says that if the snag affects safety or if pilots are worried about it, to snag it.

You lie.. Always sticking up for management you brown noser.. =) <kidding>

Radman, I loved your post... Excellent...

/leaves the thread.

Don't make me out you!

[Switchfoot]

I believe that human beings will make mistakes, and are prone to both success and failure. I also believe that to leave the "go no go" decision strictly or heavily to a pilot's willpower because the industry constantly puts pilots in that situation (and laws be damned) is ridiculous. My fiance was having a discussion with a couple of pilots, and they were commenting that the industry needs to put torn down and rebuilt. We both completely agree. As long as pilots are desperate to get the hours, and as long as operators can take advantage of that fact, these problems will continue. And you guys on the podium can talk tough all you want, a sh!t system will yield sh!t safety, sh!t results and pilots with sh!t attitudes.

Radman:

Excellent post and very eloquently written! I second many of your thoughts. While I have never been 'forced' into an uncomfortable position by an employer I have found myself in trying circumstances once or twice throughout the past 2700 hours. If ever I am faced with a decision like yours I will certainly make a decision based on safety and the well-being of my passengers and fellow crew members. If it means my job or my license, then so be it. It's better than my life. Or the lives of my passengers. I tip my hat to folks like you who are willing to stand up for yourself rather than not fight for your values which you know are right.

Sorry to hear about your job and I sincerely hope that you will find success in your future endeavours!

Clear skies.


Switchfoot.

[Chris]

I complained about the safety of my airplane/operation and now I'm unemployed.

[sakism]

Got let go from my job after 29 days. Why? Refused the overload for a customer. Customer was like a 3rd of the operator's revenue, boss didn't back me up, he let me go.

Is that what he put on your "Record of Employment" ?
What exactly did he put on your record of employment for reason(s) for your dismissal?
Did he hire another pilot right after letting you go?

Cat knows where I'm headed here.

I'm not sure - but I strongly suspect - that the number of days (just short of a month) was key to the firing. I don't know about BC in particular, but employees have to work through a probationary period when they first start a job. During this probationary period they can be let go without the employer having to give a reason. Makes it very hard to persue wrongful dismissal because the employer does not have to justify his actions.

[RadMan]

Thanks for your kind comments guys, much appreciated.

CAT - SMS? Not familiar with the acronym. As far as coming back to flying professionally, sorry man... not likely. I may in the next couple of years return to my first and what was my greatest love... gliding.

Driving Rain - Within the probationary period (3 months) not much the operator has to justify to the government. I think they used the code meaning basically "not suited to the position" or something to that effect.

Sakism - no, no conspiracy theory here. He could have just as easily have let me go after 89 days. First 3 months probationary period employer really doesn't need a reason to let you go. The incident actually happened 3 weeks into my job.

Anyways, that's then. I'm actually really looking forward to this Sat Install thing. Now if I could just get over my fear of heights...

[Driving Rain]

OK, I know what the probationary period is all about. Sorry about that happening to you Rad Man.
It's been years since I was last on probation 24 to be exact. When I joined my present employer they had and still do a 1 year probation.
In that period you were expected to undergo at least 3 interviews. The interviews were supposed to weed out undesirables. (I can see CL Guy laughing as he reads this)
M job at that time was to fly from a two pilot two aircraft base.
I remember my first and second interviews because they had brought me in to discuss not me but another pilot. They basically wanted me to RAT HIM OUT because he'd been a great pain in their ass for many years. It wasn't he was unsafe or anything like that. He could be ...I'll say challanging to work with on an interpersonel level. Long story short , I refused and the result was I received an unfavourable report. They decided to give me 3 more months to get my head around the idea of spilling my guts about this guy or else. Needless to say this left me very upset. The week after the interview I challanged the validity of my supervisors tactics with his boss. I found out what they were asking me to do was illegal. I documented the whole affair as best I could for my protection and I let them know it.
Long story short I arrive for my second interview and the topic of the day was how all the problems that were experienced prior to the first interview had been rectified. The point I'm trying to make is documentation is your best friend.
With respect to matters brought before the company "aviation safety officer" everything is documented. You get a copy the boss gets a copy and another goes in the safety officers file. If you were ever fired because you refused to undertake an unsafe practice you'd have the company by the nuts.