Just wanted some opinions on landing a plane with a little power!
I am currently flying king airs, and I am just wondering if other people flying similar aircraft touch down with a touch of power or do you chop the power over the threshold? I always seem to carry a touch of power until touchdown and it seems weird for me to pull the power off over the threshold like most other people. Maybe it's from my tailwheel flying, not sure! This is assuming you are landing on a 4000' or greater strip under normal conditions!
I would also like to hear how the guys/ladies flying the biz jets and airliners land their iron!
Landing w/ a little power
Moderators: Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, I WAS Birddog
On the Citation II we pull the throttles to idle at 50 feet and then fly down to the runway, flaring a little bit just before touchdown.
On the MU-2, we would land with at least 25% torque. If you pulled the throttles to idle, you'd fall out of the sky and knock the tiptanks off the airplane. There's a funny story about that, actually. If you are ever in Buttonville, ask around and maybe someone will tell you
On the MU-2, we would land with at least 25% torque. If you pulled the throttles to idle, you'd fall out of the sky and knock the tiptanks off the airplane. There's a funny story about that, actually. If you are ever in Buttonville, ask around and maybe someone will tell you
Lots of guys land king airs with power on. Personally i rarely do but there is nothing wrong with it as long as you are not eating up a lot of runway.
It also depends on whether you are grabbing Vref half a mile back or if you just reach it as you get to the fence.
It also depends on whether you are grabbing Vref half a mile back or if you just reach it as you get to the fence.
Last edited by ahramin on Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yes i meant Vref.-
Cat Driver
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Cat Driver
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I was going to let this one pass but changed my mind because the question should be considered and discussed.
First what exactly does this mean Low Level, as it is you asking the question?
Maybe it's from my tailwheel flying, not sure!
When flying any aircraft I like to have as short a period of time between the flare for landing and wheel contact with the surface as possible.
My reason is that the longer you fly down the runway from the point of flare to wheel contact the more exposure you have to wind effect causing the machine gain and lose height and to deviate from the straight down the centerline path that I want.
Therefore unless I have a specific need for power during the landing I close the throttle / s prior to flaring for the landing.
( There is an exemption here for large Jets that you may not exactly " flare " )
Anyhow I have yet to fly any airplane that I can not land without difficulty power off.
I try to never carry power in the latter stages of the landing with tail wheel airplanes.
Cat
First what exactly does this mean Low Level, as it is you asking the question?
Maybe it's from my tailwheel flying, not sure!
When flying any aircraft I like to have as short a period of time between the flare for landing and wheel contact with the surface as possible.
My reason is that the longer you fly down the runway from the point of flare to wheel contact the more exposure you have to wind effect causing the machine gain and lose height and to deviate from the straight down the centerline path that I want.
Therefore unless I have a specific need for power during the landing I close the throttle / s prior to flaring for the landing.
( There is an exemption here for large Jets that you may not exactly " flare " )
Anyhow I have yet to fly any airplane that I can not land without difficulty power off.
I try to never carry power in the latter stages of the landing with tail wheel airplanes.
Cat
Last edited by Cat Driver on Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
With regard to King Airs, there are, as I am sure you are aware, several models with different configurations. I only have experience on two of those models so I would hate to generalize particularily when the ones I am experienced on seem to like a little power carried in the flare to keep the tail more effective, and make for a gentler settling of the nose wheel.
Which brings me to general comments. It is a shame that pilots want to generalize everything. I think you are better to treat each type of plane you get checked out on as a unique type and learn its characteristics. too many pilots want to fly the latest type the same way they flew the last type and it doesnt always work out that well. As to those who can land anything power off, good on you. sometimes the difference between a bad pilot and a true professional is finesse.
Which brings me to general comments. It is a shame that pilots want to generalize everything. I think you are better to treat each type of plane you get checked out on as a unique type and learn its characteristics. too many pilots want to fly the latest type the same way they flew the last type and it doesnt always work out that well. As to those who can land anything power off, good on you. sometimes the difference between a bad pilot and a true professional is finesse.
Cat when I was refering to the taildragger days, I meant that I always wheel landed. I guess this somewhat comes down to flying the airplane onto the runway just not as much as you would a taildragger! I have the habit of landing the king air with a couple hundred pounds of torque, to which I feel I have more control over the airplane!
Yes I agree with your wind effect speech, but if I am carrying a 20kt x-wind that is the time I am definately carrying power to the touchdown. I guess I am a victim to a longer flare, but have yet to drift off centerline!
Yes I agree with your wind effect speech, but if I am carrying a 20kt x-wind that is the time I am definately carrying power to the touchdown. I guess I am a victim to a longer flare, but have yet to drift off centerline!
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Cat Driver
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" As to those who can land anything power off, good on you. sometimes the difference between a bad pilot and a true professional is finesse. "
Hmmmm, I don't quite get the connection between bad pilot, true professional and finesse.
Some aircraft such as gliders and the Space Shuttle demand that you land power off and finesse varies with landings some are better than others no matter how good you think you are.
Bottom line is if power will aid you in making a good landing or recover one going out of shape of course you should use what ever amount is needed for any given situation.
But it is hard to argue with the less time floating down the runway under power the less chance of things going out of shape.
Hmmmm, I don't quite get the connection between bad pilot, true professional and finesse.
Some aircraft such as gliders and the Space Shuttle demand that you land power off and finesse varies with landings some are better than others no matter how good you think you are.
Bottom line is if power will aid you in making a good landing or recover one going out of shape of course you should use what ever amount is needed for any given situation.
But it is hard to argue with the less time floating down the runway under power the less chance of things going out of shape.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Thanks for the answer lowlevel, sometimes we misunderstand what we read or type it not quite right.
I also prefer wheel landings in tail wheel airplanes ( except the Pitts. ) and generally close the throttle/s just prior to the flare.
I find that if I try and wheel land with power it makes it more difficult...however if I need power to correct for being to high I will of course add whatever is needed to make a smooth runway contact at a low sink rate.
We all do things different, what works for me may not work for you so as long as we can make decent landings without wrecking the thing it all evens out.
I also prefer wheel landings in tail wheel airplanes ( except the Pitts. ) and generally close the throttle/s just prior to the flare.
I find that if I try and wheel land with power it makes it more difficult...however if I need power to correct for being to high I will of course add whatever is needed to make a smooth runway contact at a low sink rate.
We all do things different, what works for me may not work for you so as long as we can make decent landings without wrecking the thing it all evens out.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Land a King Air with power on....um, er, no.
Even when wheel landing a Racer, the power is off before the wheels touch, in all but the most extreme X-wind conditions.
Glassy water, on floats....some power, other than that, though, I go to idle before, or in the flare. Usually, before.
Even when wheel landing a Racer, the power is off before the wheels touch, in all but the most extreme X-wind conditions.
Glassy water, on floats....some power, other than that, though, I go to idle before, or in the flare. Usually, before.
Last edited by Doc on Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cat Driver
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Flying Newf
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I was going to call this a pet peeve but I will be honest and call it a pet piss off.
The only reason to land a King Air with a bit of power on is because most pilots have never ever learned how to land an airplane properly. For some, it is a floatplane thing, where a bit of power may be required because of the extra drag of the floats. For others, it is a training thing. It is easier for the instructor to teach a student to land with power than it is to teach them to land properly.
Get into ANY airplane certified to FAR 23 sFAR 41 or Far 23 CC, (King Air 300/350, SA 227,J31/32 and the AFM is very specific.
Fly the airplane with enough power to maintain a 3 degree glideslope at Vref.
At 50 ft, bring the power to idle and land the airplane with a minimum of flair.
Nuff Said.
Any jet, the power comes to idle @ 50 ft and the airplane is flown on with a minimum of flair.
GOLDEN RULE.
Flair ONCE and if the airplane does not land, fly it on.
I have seen so many pilots carry power into the flair and sit there.
Too much power to land, not enough power to fly. Too much speed to land, not enough speed to fly.
They are like a deer caught in the headlights, they are transfixed waiting for runway contact and have very little idea of what is happening. Huge amounts of runway are chewed up because they forget that ground effect will have the same consequences as increasing power in the flair.
Most pilots, myself included, find it difficult to flair, maintain runway centerline and slowly reduce power. It is like walking and chewing gum at the same time. Some can and some cannot.
In a vain attempt to get a greaser landing, many pilots put themselves at the mercy of everything. By attempting very slow flight inches above the runway, they are at the mercy of every gust of wind. To compensate, they are touching down at Vref plus as much as 20 kts. They have absolutly no idea at all what is happening.
I find a lot of newbes, especially higher time instructors, who will start a half assed attempt at a flair starting about 100 ft. and start pumping the elevators because they have absolutly no idea at all where the runway is.
After much coaching, I attempr to teach them the 50 ft and a more aggressive flair and after a while, landings become safer because they are in control and eventually, smoother once they find where the runway is.
If you are having a problem doing a power to idle landing in any Garrett powered airplane, have the mechanics adjust the flight idle fuel flows. If they are too high, you cannot land because you cannot slow down, too low and the bottom drops out.
Like CAt said, you want to transition from a stable flying machine to an unstable tricycle as quickly as possible.
If you attempt a power on landing in a King Air 350, you will have a very good look at the end of the runway. With that airplane, power comes to idle at 50 ft. period. Even if there is a wind. With other King Airs, especially with 4 blade props, try high idle. That is more than enough power to get a greaser. A King Air B200 can be a bit of a bitch to perfect a nice landing but if you follow these instructions, you will succeed. And you will land shorter, use less reverse and save wear and tear on the brakes and my nerves. Try it, it works.
The only reason to land a King Air with a bit of power on is because most pilots have never ever learned how to land an airplane properly. For some, it is a floatplane thing, where a bit of power may be required because of the extra drag of the floats. For others, it is a training thing. It is easier for the instructor to teach a student to land with power than it is to teach them to land properly.
Get into ANY airplane certified to FAR 23 sFAR 41 or Far 23 CC, (King Air 300/350, SA 227,J31/32 and the AFM is very specific.
Fly the airplane with enough power to maintain a 3 degree glideslope at Vref.
At 50 ft, bring the power to idle and land the airplane with a minimum of flair.
Nuff Said.
Any jet, the power comes to idle @ 50 ft and the airplane is flown on with a minimum of flair.
GOLDEN RULE.
Flair ONCE and if the airplane does not land, fly it on.
I have seen so many pilots carry power into the flair and sit there.
Too much power to land, not enough power to fly. Too much speed to land, not enough speed to fly.
They are like a deer caught in the headlights, they are transfixed waiting for runway contact and have very little idea of what is happening. Huge amounts of runway are chewed up because they forget that ground effect will have the same consequences as increasing power in the flair.
Most pilots, myself included, find it difficult to flair, maintain runway centerline and slowly reduce power. It is like walking and chewing gum at the same time. Some can and some cannot.
In a vain attempt to get a greaser landing, many pilots put themselves at the mercy of everything. By attempting very slow flight inches above the runway, they are at the mercy of every gust of wind. To compensate, they are touching down at Vref plus as much as 20 kts. They have absolutly no idea at all what is happening.
I find a lot of newbes, especially higher time instructors, who will start a half assed attempt at a flair starting about 100 ft. and start pumping the elevators because they have absolutly no idea at all where the runway is.
After much coaching, I attempr to teach them the 50 ft and a more aggressive flair and after a while, landings become safer because they are in control and eventually, smoother once they find where the runway is.
If you are having a problem doing a power to idle landing in any Garrett powered airplane, have the mechanics adjust the flight idle fuel flows. If they are too high, you cannot land because you cannot slow down, too low and the bottom drops out.
Like CAt said, you want to transition from a stable flying machine to an unstable tricycle as quickly as possible.
If you attempt a power on landing in a King Air 350, you will have a very good look at the end of the runway. With that airplane, power comes to idle at 50 ft. period. Even if there is a wind. With other King Airs, especially with 4 blade props, try high idle. That is more than enough power to get a greaser. A King Air B200 can be a bit of a bitch to perfect a nice landing but if you follow these instructions, you will succeed. And you will land shorter, use less reverse and save wear and tear on the brakes and my nerves. Try it, it works.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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Cat Driver
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Thanks oldtimer...you have summed it up precisely.
I try not to watch light twins land these days because it elevates my pulse rate and causes me to wonder who in hell is failing to properly train all these ham handed pilots.
I find the best method to teach proper flare height judgement and attitude control is teaching power off wheel landings( in a tail wheel airplane of course ) ..without having to use power to correct a screw up.
AAAAhhhh I'm getting a high pulse rate just typing this..
I try not to watch light twins land these days because it elevates my pulse rate and causes me to wonder who in hell is failing to properly train all these ham handed pilots.
I find the best method to teach proper flare height judgement and attitude control is teaching power off wheel landings( in a tail wheel airplane of course ) ..without having to use power to correct a screw up.
AAAAhhhh I'm getting a high pulse rate just typing this..
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
trey kule.....sometimes power in a flare.....but I only use power in an actual landing, in say, a Dak (I'm sure you have flown a large taildragger?) in extreme X-winds.....but with many hours landing where I dont want to eat up a lot of runway, I can, and do land powerless. Why is this so much of a shock?
.
Oldtimer wrote:
My original point to Doc's comments was the sweeping generalizations about all kings airs, all the time, It is my pet peeve because I have spoken with pilots after an incident and to many of them say..."well we always do it this way"
Oldtimer wrote:
I dont believe this is quite correct. And neither do I feel that you equating power with more speed is quite correct either. It is difficult , in this medium to express oneself but as you get on the backside of the power curve you can add power for a smoother pitch control and slow the plane down touch down) even slower that you can power off. Cat is quite correct however about the effect of crosswinds. And you are quite correct, I am an old float and bush pilot, but the lessons one learns from high drag approaches seem to work well with some of the king airs. dont know about the 300 series. Perhaps you are right in that it is easier to teach a new pilot how to come in with a little power than not.....and one heck of a lot easier on nose gear too.The only reason to land a King Air with a bit of power on is because most pilots have never ever learned how to land an airplane properly
My original point to Doc's comments was the sweeping generalizations about all kings airs, all the time, It is my pet peeve because I have spoken with pilots after an incident and to many of them say..."well we always do it this way"
Kule...if you have to add power to, what was that? To gain pitch control and slow down for touch down? Is that about right? You're doing somethig wrong if you need to add power to "rescue" the landing?
Lets see, I cant see how you saw my statement as a sweeping endorsement for never ever, ever use power in a flare.......I thought we were talking about landings.......and when my wheels touch, my throttles are at idle. I've carried power for an ATC requested long landing, if the request comes late...but I'm not counting that.....
Lets see, I cant see how you saw my statement as a sweeping endorsement for never ever, ever use power in a flare.......I thought we were talking about landings.......and when my wheels touch, my throttles are at idle. I've carried power for an ATC requested long landing, if the request comes late...but I'm not counting that.....
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logicaldisaster
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NorthernDuck
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Just to put in my two cents as well.
As mentioned earlier, many times each plane will have it's own kinks. I've flown 3 King Air A100's. On 2 of them, if you pulled the power to idle, the props disk and the plane drops out of the sky (both 3 and 4 bladed props). On the other one you could pull the powers to idle and flare normally.
I prefer to cut the powers to idle, but in the end all depends on the approach and conditions.
As mentioned earlier, many times each plane will have it's own kinks. I've flown 3 King Air A100's. On 2 of them, if you pulled the power to idle, the props disk and the plane drops out of the sky (both 3 and 4 bladed props). On the other one you could pull the powers to idle and flare normally.
I prefer to cut the powers to idle, but in the end all depends on the approach and conditions.
logicaldisaster....you dont fly many different types do you? Why, pray tell could you not land every King Air power off????? I'd kind of like to see an example of an aircraft that is not landed power off?? (MU2, could be one?) Pull out your POH's and give me an example...please. Other than an F104 etc. that is, something some of us has actually flown??
Cat, you're right.....some of these guys cant fly!
Cat, you're right.....some of these guys cant fly!
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unregistered
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"Vref – the reference indicated (CAS) approach speed, usually about 1.3 times Vso plus 50% of the wind gust speed in excess of the mean wind speed. e.g.Vso = 30 knots, wind speed 10 knots gusting to 20 knots, Vref = 1.3 x 30 + 5 knots = 44 knots. Normal landing procedure is to set up the approach so that an imaginary 15 metre [50 ft] high screen placed before the runway threshold is crossed at Vref and the airspeed is reduced to maybe 1.15 Vso – plus the gust allowance – when rounding out prior to touchdown. The ground distance from the screen to the touch-down point can be roughly estimated, using the 1-in-60 rule, from the approach slope. For example with a 6° slope – which is around the norm for most light aeroplanes – the distance will be 60/6 × 15 = 150 metres, to which must be added any float period plus the ground roll distance with normal braking, to give the total landing distance over the standard 15 m screen – in nil wind conditions."
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I dug this up on the internet - and this was always my basic understanding of Vref (although I couldn't have put it quite so precisely).
Didn't think you were supposed to "grab" Vref somewhere down the runway.
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I dug this up on the internet - and this was always my basic understanding of Vref (although I couldn't have put it quite so precisely).
Didn't think you were supposed to "grab" Vref somewhere down the runway.
