Flight School in Vancouver

[oscar_msl]

Dear Friends

I have to choose among these 4 Flight Schools in Vancouver.

-Pro-IFR
-Juan Air
-MontAir
-Carson Air.

What do you think?
Thanks in advance

Oscar

[Lommer]

Pro for sure. Montair's probably the cheapest, but I know people who've been to three of the ones you mentioned (pro, carson, montair) and pro got the best reviews (that's where I went too). Wherever you go, make sure that they have a big enough fleet that you can book when it suits you, and try to get on with one of their more experienced instructors.

[Airtids]

Juanair for sure. Good equipment, great environment, and training from pilots who actually do the job you are being trained for. Plus if you keep your nose clean, you might just get a job out of it.

[Switchfoot]

Juanair for sure. Good equipment, great environment, and training from pilots who actually do the job you are being trained for. Plus if you keep your nose clean, you might just get a job out of it.

Ya, and it'll only cost you $5000 for your PPC to do it!

[MVFR]

Carson Air's flight school (Southern Interior Flight Center) is good but it's in Kelowna, about a 4.5 hour drive from Vancouver. And I thought Juan Air is in Victoria, a ferry ride across the channel from Vancouver.

[Airtids]

Juanair for sure. Good equipment, great environment, and training from pilots who actually do the job you are being trained for. Plus if you keep your nose clean, you might just get a job out of it.

Ya, and it'll only cost you $5000 for your PPC to do it!

Only if some friggin' pilot whore is stupid enough to pony up for it. Sure beats offering to pay to fly something useless, like a 337!

Guess what, this is a business. A business uses it's tools to go to work and generate revenue. In this case, a couple of the tools in the box are 'ho's, and if someone wants to pay to turn the prop, then a business that says no will not last long. Juanair has been around almost as long as Cat Driver.

Bruce has NEVER demanded training be paid for by an employee. Every pilot I've seen there has been pushed through the ranks. I would hazard a guess that an offer to pay to fly would actually diminish your chances of employment there. Sorry if it seems my panties are in a knot, but Switch, you're bashing one of the best operators out there with obviously no knowledge of what really goes on. Perhaps you should consider editing your post, and I'll do the same.

[Cat Driver]

In all my years in aviation I can not recall knowing a more honest upright person than Bruce..

Companies don't come better than Juan Air.

. E.

[Switchfoot]

Juanair for sure. Good equipment, great environment, and training from pilots who actually do the job you are being trained for. Plus if you keep your nose clean, you might just get a job out of it.

Ya, and it'll only cost you $5000 for your PPC to do it!

Only if some friggin' pilot whore is stupid enough to pony up for it. Sure beats offering to pay to fly something useless, like a 337!

Bruce has NEVER demanded training be paid for by an employee. Every pilot I've seen there has been pushed through the ranks. I would hazard a guess that an offer to pay to fly would actually diminish your chances of employment there. Switch, you're bashing one of the best operators out there with obviously no knowledge of what really goes on. Perhaps you should consider editing your post.

Sorry to ruffle your feathers. No, I'm not bashing them. I have met with Bruce in person and he seems like a likeable fellow. And it seems his organization is good too. It's just that I don't agree with the whole pay-for-PPC policy and I have spoken with a few out there who have. Not necessarily at Juan Air but locations close by. I've heard a few stories...

Have a nice day.
PS How is CZNL and CYCG?


Switch.

[Airtids]

Sorry, slow edit. Switchfoot, I agree with you about the PPC issue. What got me was the insinuation that you made that there was a requirement to PAY at Juanair. Couldn't be further from the truth and it's important in this business to let the good shine through, because there is so little of it around.

ps. Nelson Rocks!!

[goldeneagle]

Guess what, this is a business. A business uses it's tools to go to work and generate revenue. In this case, a couple of the tools in the box are 'ho's, and if someone wants to pay to turn the prop, then a business that says no will not last long.

It's all about a philosophy. At some operations, pilots are customers, they contribute to the revenue stream directly when they buy the ppc. After that, they potentially become employees, which the company views as a liability, because employees are a cost center, gotta write cheques every month.

At other operations, pilots are employees from the get go, and, the company considers employees to be assetts. Training costs are part of the cost of doing business. Customers are the folks that ride in the back, and ultimately pay the invoices generated.

There is a third example, the company that does pay for the training up front, who has learned the hard way, that pilots are not trustworthy individuals in many cases. After they put the money out of pocket, they want assurance that they will get thier time out of you, and that comes in the form of a bond.

But, you are right, it's all about how a business utilizes its tools. Some businesses choose to utilize training time as a profit center, no sense turning a prop without somebody paying the bills for it. Other companies use the same tool and a training budget to attract more desireable employees, who will become assets. An interesting exercise for the reader, do some statistics. Cross correlate longetivity of various companies with thier 'who pays for training' policy. Hint, most of the companies that do pay for training up front, have been around 20 years or longer. Those that sell ppc's in general tend to last 5 years or less. Those that require bonds fall in between. There's a big clue sitting in that data...

[cessnafloatflyer]

I did my commercial at Juan in 1999... later when I worked the dock for Cooper Air I talked to Bruce about working for free and he said that "it is the sorriest part of this industry and it has to stop. Even a prostitute get paid!' That's when I went in and talked to the Chief Pilot and got a paying job.
Thanks for that Bruce, you're right, it's about time young pilots were not taken advantage of. I don't know if that $5k PPC is true, but I'd find it hard to beleive as I know all of the people who work for Juan Air. Bruce has always done me right and I've never heard a bad thing about him in almost 10 years at YYJ. Great aircraft and a great staff.

[oscar_msl]

[quote="cessnafloatflyer"]I did my commercial at Juan in 1999... later when I worked the dock for Cooper Air I talked to Bruce about working for free and he said that "it is the sorriest part of this industry and it has to stop. Even a prostitute get paid!' That's when I went in and talked to the Chief Pilot and got a paying job.
Thanks for that Bruce, you're right, it's about time young pilots were not taken advantage of. I don't know if that $5k PPC is true, but I'd find it hard to beleive as I know all of the people who work for Juan Air. Bruce has always done me right and I've never heard a bad thing about him in almost 10 years at YYJ. Great aircraft and a great staff.[/quote].


Thanks for your comments.

It is very important to me, cos, I am foreigner. I have to convert my ICAO Lic. To Canadians.

Thanks in advance.

Oscar

[oscar_msl]

Thanks for your commets.

It is very importante to me .Because I am a foreigner and I have to convert my ICAO Lic. to Canadians. (Commertial-Multi IFR)


Thanks in advance

OScar

[Walker]

The real question should be do you want to live in Vancouver or Victoria! Both are great cities; and both have their advantages! As for Juan Air; Iv never heard anything but praise for them AND as a point of interest I am an instructor at a competing school on the field. Pro is also a fantastic school (IMO) they probably have a bit more name value, but to be honest I really don’t think where you train/work REALLY matters to the next employer (unless it was Regency ) My advice if you are planning to do the CPL & get a job time building IN the city then find an operator that has the student base and/or does section 7 work, Then be on your best behavior for the next 2 years. Get to know the CP, CFI AND owner very well; think of your training as a 2.5 year job interview...

[Airtids]

Guess what, this is a business. A business uses it's tools to go to work and generate revenue. In this case, a couple of the tools in the box are 'ho's, and if someone wants to pay to turn the prop, then a business that says no will not last long.

It's all about a philosophy. At some operations, pilots are customers, they contribute to the revenue stream directly when they buy the ppc. After that, they potentially become employees, which the company views as a liability, because employees are a cost center, gotta write cheques every month.

At other operations, pilots are employees from the get go, and, the company considers employees to be assetts. Training costs are part of the cost of doing business. Customers are the folks that ride in the back, and ultimately pay the invoices generated.

There is a third example, the company that does pay for the training up front, who has learned the hard way, that pilots are not trustworthy individuals in many cases. After they put the money out of pocket, they want assurance that they will get thier time out of you, and that comes in the form of a bond.

But, you are right, it's all about how a business utilizes its tools. Some businesses choose to utilize training time as a profit center, no sense turning a prop without somebody paying the bills for it. Other companies use the same tool and a training budget to attract more desireable employees, who will become assets. An interesting exercise for the reader, do some statistics. Cross correlate longetivity of various companies with thier 'who pays for training' policy. Hint, most of the companies that do pay for training up front, have been around 20 years or longer. Those that sell ppc's in general tend to last 5 years or less. Those that require bonds fall in between. There's a big clue sitting in that data...

Eagle, that pretty much nails it. In this particular case, the company has the tools to do the work, but does not expect it's employees to pay for the opportunity to use these tools. In fact, there is no bond asked for either, just a verbal commitment to stick it out for a year. Juanair would provide a PPC to pilots who wanted to purchase one to work at Navair, or any other 'ho operator in the country. Switchfoots insinuation is akin to criticising Flightsafety for providing the training on an MD for Jetsgo pilots. Flightsafety may not agree with the policy, but at the end of the day someone is paying to keep their operation running, and it ain't Flightsafety employees. Seems up-and-up to me, so I don't understand where the criticism comes from.

Also well put Walker. If you're lucky enough to do your training at a place that also has a 70X component to it, the student needs to realise that they ARE being watched to see if they would make a decent employee when they're done. Show up hungover for a flight, or no-show, and see what that does to your chances...

Ahhh, Victoria. Those were the days. Cherry blossoms out yet?

[PC12's are better]

More fricking whining about PPC's

In the end of the day it is the taxpayers who end up paying for the PPC because as pilots this is considered as training towards our career, therefore A DEDUCTION from our income (or lack there of) tax. therefore we don't pay for it. just as the employer doesn't pay for it. it's all a 100% tax write-off. no one ever has to pay for it within this industry. it's the same with the CPL, MIFR, Float, Ski.. etc. heli.

Poor pilots paid for their PPC. it was a write off. whatever taxes you paid you will get back up to the ammount of the training
quit bitching. yes this goes for Pilots and employers alike. even if the employee turns tail and quits the day later. you still don't pay for it

yes you are out of pocket this cash till the end of the year but you'll get it back in the new year. take out a loan if required

I've had enough


I think next year I'll do my float rating as it's another tax write off. let some other poor bastard pay for that one as well. do you think that someday they will put a bizjet on floats?, who knows.

[goldeneagle]

In the end of the day it is the taxpayers who end up paying for the PPC because as pilots this is considered as training towards our career, therefore A DEDUCTION from our income (or lack there of) tax. therefore we don't pay for it.

Yet another clueless person that thinks a 'tax deductible item' is a gift from the taxpayers. It's not. Here's how it really works. As an operator, I spend $5K to ppc a pilot. That's money that comes out of my pocket up front, and it's a valid part of the cost of running my business. That means, it's an 'expense', therefore deducted from 'gross income' to calculate 'net income'. I pay taxes on the 'net income'. When I spend that money on the pilot ppc, taking the gas as an example, I am not liable for the tax on that cost because I paid it to the oil company, and THEY are liable for the tax on it now. But, i still have to have the income to be able to make that payment. The bottom line is, for every dollar that goes out, I need a dollar on the income side to balance. If there is a surplus, that becomes the 'net income' and I'm liable for paying income tax on that.

I dont get a tax refund, because my customers do not withhold taxes from my invoices, I get the full amounted invoiced. That's different from a slave working for wages, the government doesn't trust slaves to actually pay taxes, they force me to deduct it in advance from a paycheque and send it directly to the government, so the paycheque reflects 'after tax money'. This is done because the government learned many many years ago, average slaves working for wages are financially inept, and incapable of budgeting for taxes, so they removed that problem from the equation. That is the only special case where racking up deductible expenses will indeed result in a 'refund', and to those who do not understand finance, it looks like a gift, 'free money' so to speak. The reality, it's a return of overpayment, because you paid to much in tax all along. But, even taking the example of a PPC, assume you spent $5K on a ppc and it's deductible. At a marginal tax rate of 35%, your refund is only 35% of the 5K, or $1750. Net result, you spent 5K, got a refund of 1750, for a net cost of $3250, and the person you paid the money to is now actually liable for the income tax on the 5K. If they end up in a marginal tax bracket higher than yours, the taxpayers get a sweet deal, because now they will collect more than the 1750 in taxes you would have paid on the money. If you think that somehow the money in question has escaped taxation, you truely dont understand the power of government and taxation.

Tax deductible items are not gifts, they are a process of shifting tax liability to the final recipient of the money. It's a process most wage earners do not understand, because they are the bottom of the food chain for taxation, so rarely participate in the accounting process. It simply amazes me how many folks seem to think that deductible items are gifts, and you can somehow spend huge amounts of money on them, without having any income to support that, and somehow the taxpayers are footing the bill.

Years ago, I used to wonder why so many aviation companies went broke, I dont anymore. It's because so many of them get started by pilots that cant find work, and want to fly, so they scrape up a few bucks and create thier own job by buying some aircraft. The problem is, those pilots are so clueless when it comes to business, they cant help but get into financial trouble. The above quoted commentary is just one more prime example of why so many startups go under, yet another pilot that has absolutely no clue of how a finances actually work, and what needs to be reflected in the books at the end of the year. We dont need no stinking income, it's all deductible anyways....

[oscar_msl]

Dear Friends

This is the situation:

I am moving to Vancouver at the end of the year.I am an ICAO pilot, Commerticial-IFR-MULTI-CFI.
TT 1000 aprox.

After converting to Canadians.I hope to get a job in BC. So the school that might guide me in that way, would be really ADVANTAGEOUS!.

thanks in advance

Oscar

[oscar_msl]

Dear Friends

This is the situation:

I am moving to Vancouver at the end of the year.I am an ICAO pilot, Commerticial-IFR-MULTI-CFI.
TT 1000 aprox.

After converting to Canadians.I hope to get a job in BC. So the school that might guide me in that way, would be really ADVANTAGEOUS!.

thanks in advance

Oscar

[Switchfoot]

In this particular case, the company has the tools to do the work, but does not expect it's employees to pay for the opportunity to use these tools. In fact, there is no bond asked for either, just a verbal commitment to stick it out for a year. Juanair would provide a PPC to pilots who wanted to purchase one to work at Navair, or any other 'ho operator in the country.

Right, so they ARE selling PPC's to young and aspiring pilots so they can go and work for another operator?! What am I missing here? Airtids, can you please explain this to me.


Switch.

[Airtids]

Switchfoot,
They ARE also selling PPL, CPL, MIFR, and Instructor Ratings to young and aspiring pilots so they can go and work for other operators. It's what they are in business to do!! What you're missing is that there is nothing wrong with selling training to the pilots of another operation. While I happen to believe it is wrong to demand your own employee to pay for company specific training, all Juanair is doing is providing an aircraft and a pilot to train employees for another company. Is that OK if the other company is footing the bill? Damn right!! Why should it be any different if the pilot, his mom, the government, his dog, or his God is paying? Do you suggest they say "NO WAY!" because it turns out that the other company happens to be having their potential employees foot the bill for this training? What about if I wanted to go out and renew a LR35 PPC just for bragging rights, all on my own dime? Are you suggesting that Simcom should turn me away? This is business. Who cares why someone wants to use my plane, it's really none of my concern as long as it's not illegal. While the owner may not like the reason (see the post by cessnafloatflyer), in the real world you don't have the luxury to question why; you simply will not survive. My analogy of Flightsafety and Jetsgo explained all that, I thought.

You insinuated that Juanair requires it's own pilots to pay for training (think what you want of this policy, I happen to think it reeks, but also understand why it exists), and I'm telling you the truth couldn't be further away. You are misleading oscar_msl about this ethical, quality operation with that insinuation. Maybe you missed the part about how they DON'T require their own pilots to pay for training (don't even ask for a bond- oldschool honour at work here, good luck finding many other operations like that out there), while attempting to compete with the Navairs, and Regency's who do. As goldeneagle alluded to- look who's still around .

Juanair isn't the bad guy here. Jesus, they're not even marketing this (a la Skywings). The companies who demand PPCd pilots are the problem, almost to the same extent as the pilots who are prepared to open their wallets in the hopes of jumping queue .

goldeneagle,
thanks for the post on the 'deduction' pipe-dream. Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Switchfoot]

You insinuated that Juanair requires it's own pilots to pay for training (think what you want of this policy, I happen to think it reeks, but also understand why it exists), and I'm telling you the truth couldn't be further away. You are misleading oscar_msl about this ethical, quality operation with that insinuation. Maybe you missed the part about how they DON'T require their own pilots to pay for training (don't even ask for a bond- oldschool honour at work here, good luck finding many other operations like that out there), while attempting to compete with the Navairs, and Regency's who do. As goldeneagle alluded to- look who's still around . Juanair isn't the bad guy here.

First of all, I am not insinuating that Juan Air is 'the bad guy' here, nor am I mis-leading anyone into anything.

All I said was that I do not agree to the whole idea of paying for your training. Anywhere. Period.

I happen to fly for a very reputable company on a twin turbine aircraft where I did not pay for my PPC nor did I sign a training bond or commitment. Could I leave at any time? Yes. Would I? NO! Because my loyalty runs a little deeper than that.

My entire point is that I feel it cheapens the industry when people pay for training and then jump ship or use it to their advantage. There are some damn good companies in Canada and I have seen some of the good and bad. Unfortunately their are not enough of the good.

That's all.


Switchfoot.

[Airtids]

Could you please explain this comment, and it's relevance to the discussion at hand, then?

Ya, and it'll only cost you $5000 for your PPC to do it!

All I said was that I do not agree to the whole idea of paying for your training. Anywhere. Period.

Switch, we agree on the whole pay for training issue. I just don't get the connection between Juanair and this situation. You don't pay for training to work there. Why bring that issue into this discussion. I'm lost.[/quote]

[Switchfoot]

Ya, and it'll only cost you $5000 for your PPC to do it!

Could you please explain this comment, and it's relevance to the discussion at hand, then?

Switch, we agree on the whole pay for training issue. I just don't get the connection between Juanair and this situation. Why bring that issue into this discussion. I'm lost.

Okay, I was ranting out loud about paying for training and not thinking that it might sound like I was talking about Juan Air. I'm not. I am referring to the scuzzy operators who require pay for training as a condition of hire.

Perhaps I'll edit the post.


Switch.

[Airtids]

$hit, slow edit again. Sorry.

Yes, Switch, that's exactly how it came across. You even used my quote about the company to make the point. I think an edit at this point is moot, though. Might be good for others to see some of the discussion that was had here.

Glad things are workin' out for you.