Glen Valley - CYA126(A)

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:43 pm

Why do the majority of student pilots doing flight training in CYA126(A), aka Glen Valley, seem to congregate over Crescent Island?

Okay, so it's an easily identifiable landmark, but does that mean that you can only practice your exercises above it?

Do you only fly over Crescent Island because it makes giving any radio calls to local traffic really easy with regards to your location?

And for the geographically unaware, Crescent Island is actually outside of CYA126(A). No biggy here, unless of course you're doing any aerobatics (e.g. spins). See CAR 602.27 (below):

Aerobatic Manoeuvres - Prohibited Areas and Flight Conditions

602.27 No person operating an aircraft shall conduct aerobatic manoeuvres

(a) over a built-up area or an open-air assembly of persons;

(b) in controlled airspace, except in accordance with a special flight operations certificate issued pursuant to section 603.67;

(c) when flight visibility is less than three miles; or

(d) below 2,000 feet AGL, except in accordance with a special flight operations certificate issued pursuant to section 603.02 or 603.67

AND CAR 603:

"aerobatic manoeuvre" means any manoeuvre in which the aircraft bank angle exceeds 75 degrees or the pitch attitude exceeds 60 degrees above or below the horizon. Examples of aerobatic manoeuvres include, but are not limited to: rolls, loops, spins, hammerhead turns, tail slides, and lomcevaks

A quick check of the Vancouver VTA will confirm that the airspace in the vacinity of Crescent Island is controlled at and above 1200' agl. (if you don't know why, then PLEASE ask a flight instructor.

Okay, so dual spins can be covered by Flight Training, but solo spins - NO!

On a more common sense issue, those strange people who like to fly floats tend to follow the river low level in this area. Having an aircraft spin down towards them, only 1000' - 1500' above their heads tends to lead to brown pants! So, come on, lets use CYA126(A) for its designated use!

On another note, anyone fancy starting a rant against the use the term "Glen Valley International"?

[/b]

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:41 pm

I would hazard to say that most flight schools in Canada break that CAR - especially the ones in Southern Ontario.

People would have to fly for (possibly) hours to get to somewhere to do spins.

Kilo-Kilo · Post by **Kilo-Kilo** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:27 pm

It is far enough east to keep a comfortable distance from glider training in For Langley and far enough northwest to keep clear of skydivers. It is also the lowest ground elevation which may give some visual security. The fields in Glen Valley are lousy with students doing forced and precautionaries, especially on a sunny weekend. Aircraft are constantly in figure eight descents and climb-outs in that area. Basically Crescent is the least confined place in the practice area. The river also gives a good reference for counting revolutions the one or two times you execute dual spins.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:32 pm

A quick check of the Vancouver VTA will confirm that the airspace in the vacinity of Crescent Island is controlled at and above 1200' agl. (if you don't know why, then PLEASE ask a flight instructor.

you sure? just looked at my VTA (its a little old) but isnt it Vancouver terminal 4500 upto 12,500.??? I relieze what your looking at with "E1200" so who do you talk to? from 1200 to 4500.

Having an aircraft spin down towards them, only 1000' - 1500' above their heads tends to lead to brown pants

Ok if your crapping your pants at that please go get a desk job if your not recoverd by 1000 AGL youve got other issue's to deal with. and the guys driving the floats planes around there well dont worry about them it will take alot more than a cherokee spinning to make there shorts brown

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:15 pm

Just because you're not talking to anyone doesn't mean you're not in controlled airspace. E1200 means Class E (which is controlled) based at 1200' AGL.

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:29 pm

..
Yep, you're correct. Terminal Class C Airspace does start above 4500' asl in the areas surrounding CYA126(A), and "yes", Class E airspace does start at 1200'agl.
However, sticking with the Class E bit - controlled airspace that is Class E does not necessarily mean that their is an ATC unit there to communicate with, nor is there a designated frequency for that area (123.2 MHz is used due to the close proximity of the Fort Langley & Mission traffic areas, both 123.2). Legally, you can fly around inside CYA126(A) and not make any radio calls at all. Good airmanship dictates that calls should be made when applicable (e.g. when doing low level exercises or any manoeuvre that results in an abrupt & rapid altitude or heading change.
What the controlled status does imply though is that cloud separation & weather minima applicable to controlled airspace now apply.
Class F airspace takes its controlled/uncontrolled status from the surrounding airspace. In CYA126(A), any airspace below 1200' agl is uncontrolled, and airspace at or above 1200' agl up to 5500' asl (day) is controlled. At night, CYA126(A) ceases to exist!
Hope that makes sense!

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:35 pm

I understand the clases of Airspace.

Forgive me for playing devils advocate here but please explain to me how this airspace is considerd controlled airspace. Your not talking to anyone you do not have to contact an authority to use this airspace. I can go bombing through there NORDO if I want. Im just trying to get this clarified

I dont mean to hijack this thread because many moons ago I would avoid Glenn Vally, I really felt bad for the farmers out there being buzzed by a cherokee in a holding pattern #12 for approach to precautionary landing and overshoot. I prefered Cherry Point, not sure if you can still use it, the Yanks use to require a flight plan after 911. (theres a big refinery there, and those flight students from Canada might want to plant a 152 into it)

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:57 pm

Lets forget about ATC here.
The whole Class E airspace thing can be confusing, as there can be Class E control Zones, such as Naniamo & Penticton, where there is an MF, & usually an FSS, in place.
Then there is Class E airspace where there is no-one to talk to (unless the float dude is trying to tell the Cherokee driver not to spin into him!). There maybe an unoffical Traffic frequency in use, established due to the proximity of an existing ATF, or you may just monitor/broadcast on 126.7 MHz or 123.2 MHz, depending upon your height above ground.
What we mean by "controlled airspace" as it applies to CYA126(A) has nothing to do with any ATC. It simply means that at or above 1200' agl, you need to stay 1 mile horizontally from clouds, but below 1200' agl, you need only stay 2000' horizontally from the fluffy stuff as you are in uncontrolled airspace. Similarly, the minimum required visibilties to operate VFR are different!!

As far as Cherry Point goes, Victoria Terminal doesn't seem to keen these days to allow you to operate there if you're going to want to bust in & out of their airspace (above 2500' asl). I still occasionally use it if Glen Valley is like a zoo, but you have to stay out of Victoria Terminal airspace. You can still fly around there without a flight plan (that requirement was droppped a few years ago), but flying around in tight little circles, low level over the refinery is probably not a good idea!

sakism · Post by **sakism** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:31 pm

Class E airspace is controlled airspace.

"Controlled airspace" - means an airspace of fixed dimensions that is so specified in the Designated Airspace Handbook and within which air traffic control service is provided.

Not all traffic needs to be controlled to make it controlled airspace. IFR traffic in Class E airspace is controlled. However, VFR traffic in Class E airspace is not controlled - hence the lack of communication.

From the A.I.M.:

2.8.5 Class E Airspace

Class E airspace is designated where an operational need exists for controlled airspace but does not meet the requirements for Class A, B, C, or D.

Operations may be conducted under IFR or VFR. ATC separation is provided only to aircraft operating under IFR. There are no special requirements for VFR.

JW · Post by JW » Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:46 pm

Glenn Valley is a zoo! The funniest thing about it is even people that are not working over crescent island still make radio calls referencing it... "Glenn Valley traffic, Cessna 152 *-**** 4 miles south of crescent island doing airwork...." I can't wait for the day when a student discovers another landmark to reference, it will feel like the practice area just doubled in size. I like to hang out around 264th interchange.

JW

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:33 am

I think they should equip all trainin Aircraft in the area with TCAS and use it as a test area.

decend decend climb decend climb climb put make a 180 and run away

fougapilot · Post by **fougapilot** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:35 am

Guys,

Just a little info on Aerobatic in control airspace. CAR 602.27 (b) has been superseded by an exemption a little while back. Most people are not aware of this, but it is now legal to conduct aerobatics within control airspace without a Special Flight Operating Certificate. The current exemption is valid until the end of March 2006, but it will most likely be renewed as this is the 2nd or 3rd they put up. The CARAC decided to remove (b) from CAR 602.27, but it’s a bureaucracy…

The exemption can be found here:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/gener ... 602.27.htm

Cheers,

D

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:47 am

Also: despite the fact that a spin is clearly an aerobatic maneuvre according to the CARs, Transport Canada says it isn't, because they don't want it to be.

I know, I know, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me either

So, since Transport says a spin isn't an aerobatic maneuver, CAR 602.27 does not apply. But don't be surprised if Transport violates you for CAR 602.01 if you perform a spin over a populated area.

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:16 am

Ah - TC & The CAR's - isn't it great that the rules and regs for aviation are as clear as mud, and those whose job it is to oversee them can interpret them in a manner that suits their individual needs!
Just ask CAT about his experiances with a certain TC git!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:09 pm

" Just ask CAT about his experiances with a certain TC git! "
_________________

If you wish to know this git's name it is easy to find.

Just scroll through TCCA's web site and look for the Regional Director Civil Aviation, Pacific Region.

This git is either abysmally stupid or dishonest, or both which is my guess as he changed his mind about the meaning of a CAR from the last phone call he made to me before meeting me and my lawyer in Victoria as ordered by the DGCA. By changing his mind about that CAR he drove the last nail in my coffin as far as being able to survive financially in my aviation business was concerned.

The truly worrisome part of this issue though is the DGCA actually was stupid enough to send me a letter signed by himself supporting and approving of dishonesty at the level of the Regional Director CA.

So we really have two git's here laticsdave.

Makes the Hells Angels look good huh?

Cat

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:15 pm

"So we really have two git's here "

You said it! - Maybe they plan to get into politics! (let's not go there)

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:19 pm

When we have morally deficient people at the top driving their agendas would you not agree the time has come to change the system?

canpilot · Post by **canpilot** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:54 pm

"On a more common sense issue, those strange people who like to fly floats tend to follow the river low level in this area. Having an aircraft spin down towards them, only 1000' - 1500' above their heads tends to lead to brown pants! So, come on, lets use CYA126(A) for its designated use! "

To answer your question. The "strange people who like to fly floats"are out of the Fort Langley and are flying local east as you. We are also conducting circuits, or, are transiting east. This is also a VFR transit are dileniated by the arrow marks on the VTA chart (if I am correct).In my case, I like to remain at 600 or below if I can to avoid you guys in the area while making my approach to CBQ2. It is also nice for us to keep over the water as it provides an ideal forced landing site. (its also alot better than us bombing through the middle of the area at 1,000-1,500). We have the right to use this area, also, this corridor is out of the practive area.

WhatThe? · Post by **WhatThe?** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:39 am

Pitt lake is ideal for spins, there are no good PFL fields and traffic is light. I don't understand why instructors insist on using Glen Valley for everything, upper air work can easily be done over Cherry Point...just stay high; Pitt lake for aerobatic and diversion practice. If the instructors would stop doing 100% of the training there, Glen Valley wouldn't be such an "accident waiting to happen".

Spread out your training regiment!!!

JW · Post by JW » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:35 pm

Pitt lake is ideal for spins, there are no good PFL fields and traffic is light. I don't understand why instructors insist on using Glen Valley for everything, upper air work can easily be done over Cherry Point...just stay high; Pitt lake for aerobatic and diversion practice. If the instructors would stop doing 100% of the training there, Glen Valley wouldn't be such an "accident waiting to happen".

Couldn't agree more. This is common practice with myself and other instuctors that I know/work with. Pitt is great, did my CPL ride there, PFL and precautionary on the road.

SkyWolfe · Post by **SkyWolfe** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:28 pm

Wow - as a student im always doing my work in Glenn Valley

(and yeah there are other people there too- oh god no!)

Sideshow · Post by **Sideshow** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:12 pm

As long as ppl don't refer to it as Glenn Valley International I'm happy. That or i turn off the radio, close my eyes and pray... for a cloud to scare them all away.

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:11 am

I curious: Isn't an advisory airspace aerobatic CYA(a) area for doing aerobatics and not training?

AIM 2.8.6 Advisory Airspace: "VFR aircraft are, however, encouraged to aviod flight in advisory airspace unless participating in the activity (aerobatics) taking place therein."

FlyYukon · Post by **FlyYukon** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:30 am

.. I also note that I havnt done a single spin IN CYA126(a).. always just out of it to stay clear of the rest of the students... just for kicks, ima mention that today

Otter envy · Post by **Otter envy** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:25 pm

Hold the presses!!!! They have made it all better! Now you can talk to each other on a DIFFERENT freq.

No kidding! 122.75 is the cure to all of our CYA 126a problems.

Or is it that they can't stand listening to all the senceless chatter that goes on there over on the island.

For God sake stop calling it Glen valley international. It bugs most of us into ignoring you all together.

thanks TC, good work.