A better way to get a PPL

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:35 pm

Give me a J3 Cub and a good computer flight Sim and I will turn out a far superior product in thirty hours of flying than are being turned out in a lot of todays FTU's 75 hour clusterf.ck that is supposed to be flight training.

Aether · Post by **Aether** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:26 pm

This is what I was asking about in the other thread.

What would you do differently? Where does the current PPL system fail? Is it in the TC program, the instructors or the schools? (I would imagine it's a little of everything)

What can inexperienced instructors do to improve the way we train pilots (besides getting some experience)? Where do you see these "clusterf.ck(s)" screwing up is it a lack of knowledge or skill?

I'd like to learn and not have my students be "clusterf.ck(s)" I apprreciate the help.

-M

SkyWolfe · Post by **SkyWolfe** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:40 pm

Hmmmmm

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:01 pm

He can't, the student would be a good pilot, but they'd fail the ride, so they'd be "bad" pilots....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:20 pm

cyyz, why do you think hey would fail the ride?

Cat

palmpilot · Post by **palmpilot** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:24 pm

Well Cat if I could go back in time and redo my training I would definately be one of your students. My biggest regret about my flight training was doing it at a larger airport with a flight school with lots of planes. Oh to have learned on a tail drager and a grass strip.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:50 pm

Yeh palmpilot, just imagine learning to fly by walking out to a yellow cub tied down on a small grass field and just learning to fly?

In 1986 I mentioned exactly that to the guy in charge of flight training here in my region and you would swear to god I had suggested sodomizing his mother.

TC will never let people like me teach flying to students for the simple reason that I have forgotten more about how to fly and teach same than their whole department.

What they need is to get a big government grant and pay me to teach them what aviation really is all about.

But one thing I would have to do is raise my rates due to the difficulty I would have trying to teach morons.

Naw..on second thought I just couldn't do it...some things are just beyond doing..

...I wonder what they think reading this stuff day after day and not being able to respond??

For me it is sort of like tearing wings off flies to prevent them from contaminating stuff..

Cat

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:53 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Give me a J3 Cub and a good computer flight Sim and I will turn out a far superior product in thirty hours of flying than are being turned out in a lot of todays FTU's 75 hour clusterf.ck that is supposed to be flight training.

It takes two to tango, if the student is slow, nothing you nor your J3 can do about that.

You always seem to generalize.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:59 pm

Generalize??

What is the average flight time in Canada for getting a PPL?

Or are all students slow??

Cat

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:21 pm

Cat Driver wrote:cyyz, why do you think hey would fail the ride?

Cat

Isn't that the very first lesson you give your students?

"All that TC stuff is BS???"

I'd figure they'd go to the examiner and tell them they're full of sh8t, and well, it wouldn't get past the briefing...

Brewguy · Post by **Brewguy** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:50 pm

Cat Driver wrote:just imagine learning to fly by walking out to a yellow cub tied down on a small grass field and just learning to fly?

C'mon Cat! Taildragger? Grass strip? .... next thing you're going to tell me is that those little peddles are more than just foot rests!

But seriously, I agree with you.
There is absolutely no reason why a PPL should take as long as it usually does these days.

Perhaps if a few small FTUs popped-up similar to what you've just described - we would actually get some pilots graduated in a reasonable time, yet still have good skills with their hands & feet!

I don't want to slam flight instructors in general; but unfortuantely there are a great many who are sitting in that right seat, watching the clock and dreaming of the airlines. Perhaps if more instructors were passionate about teaching someone how to side slip a taildragger down onto a 1200' grass strip - rather than just trying to pad their own logbooks.......

av8tor_assrope · Post by **av8tor_assrope** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:05 pm

cat...maybe if you replied to your messages. i sent you 2 pm's and 1 email about ifr/tail dragger stuff...... and not even a f@cking response.

cheers

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:26 pm

av8, I can't find a PM from you, and I dont recall a e-mail..

so try this one..

.@..org.

I'll answer...

palmpilot · Post by **palmpilot** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:22 pm

I would say that one of the main reason's that licences take so long now-a-days is the addition of exercises the the tc syllabus. Now I only instructed for about 3 years and ended not too long ago but I'm sure that instructors from years gone by remember when they could easily get students done in the required hours. Since then Transport has added exercises witout increasing the minimum number of hours to get a license (please correct if wrong) I would also say that another reason is liability. Instructors and flight schools are very liable if a student screws up. How many times have I heard instructors say "one more flight just to make sure". This statement from my experience has usually come from more junior instructors who aren't able to judge skill as well as a more seasoned instructor. Never-the-less instructors are very worried about a student making their own dumb ass mistake and having that mistake affect them (the instructor). Anyway just a couple of things that I was thinking about. Anyone care to comment?

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:38 pm

I know 30+ individuals who did their PPL in approx 48 hours.... it's easy to do when you do it in a 5-7 week timespan. When I was doing my CPL in YXE talking to other students there, it sounded like the biggest problem is they only fly about once-twice a month..... most of the flights are spent reteaching what has already been taught.

I think every student should have a 'time limit' on their training. Really, when you factor in the cost of those extra training hours, it makes more sense to spend an extra year or so working a job to save the money to take a month or so off and get your license done all at once.

Of course, there is a flipside to this coin, and that is the retention factor. Definately, cramming all that info in over a short period does have it's faults, but for the most part it's like riding a bicycle. It's when you want to upgrade to a CPL and you have to do all the ground school again that a person may run into memory problems.... but it's all in the book if you can find it.

There is also the argument about the FTU's comfort level with doing long days... I've had instructor types complain about sitting in the right seat for more than 5 hours a day..... I'm glad some of these guys only have one person on board, and don't fly a noisy Britten-Norman with 9 souls in tow all day long.

But then again, I've also had instructors fall asleep on me and I'm still alive...

Anti

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:14 pm

AntiNakedMan wrote:I know 30+ individuals who did their PPL in approx 48 hours.... it's easy to do when you do it in a 5-7 week timespan.

That's an average of 8 hrs a week. Which is fine if you've got no job. Is the suggestion that the system is purposely weighted against people who can't fly more than once a day for 6 weeks? 'Cause I think there are a lot of people like me, who are getting the PPL for pleasure, and have a job/career already (that's paying for the training).

(PS: I just did 6 hrs on the meter over a long weekend of 3 days to catch up after a slew of bad weather. It was an awful lot to absorb and pretty tiring in the end.)

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:05 am

Cat Driver wrote:Give me a J3 Cub and a good computer flight Sim and I will turn out a far superior product in thirty hours of flying than are being turned out in a lot of todays FTU's 75 hour clusterf.ck that is supposed to be flight training.

Cat.. I just have to chime in here. You knew I would.

I have been wondering about that for years. In fact, I suggest that as tech advances, and Level "D" simulators filter down to the flight schools, this might become a reality.

HOWEVER... that is a pretty bold statement to make. Since it is nearly impossible to prove without doing it, why make the statement in the first place? The tone was rather derogatory, considering that people have met the current standards (if you agree with them or not) in the amount of flight time you stated above... and yet you have no data to support your hypothesis?

Just wondering why you posted the bait... and decided to take it to find out.

-Guy

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:14 am

TorontoGuy wrote:Is the suggestion that the system is purposely weighted against people who can't fly more than once a day for 6 weeks? 'Cause I think there are a lot of people like me, who are getting the PPL for pleasure, and have a job/career already (that's paying for the training)

My friend... the "system" you are talking about is not weighted against *ANYONE*. Flight training requires a student to meet a minimum level of skill. If that student has difficulty meeting that level of skill given their situation, they have three real options:

1) consider flying more often, so that they are not re-learning skills from the last lesson

2) consider putting off their training until your lifestyle/financial situation will allow you to do more regular training

3) realize that they will not complete in anything close to minimum time if they fly only a few times a month (or less)

Those are the honest, real facts.

-Guy

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:26 am

The problem is that not everyone dedicates the same amount of time, money, and effort towards their training. Everyone does it for different reasons. Some have finished the PPL in 1 month and some take 200 hours.

l_reason · Post by **l_reason** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:53 am

I have seen both sides of the coin when I did my licensing and then became an instructor. In my opinion it is equally (or more) the responsibility of the student how many hours it takes to get a PPL. It is the students responsibility to have the money and free time in place to complete the licence. When you are shopping for a flight school be very clear with the CFI you don’t want to take your time getting your PPL. The student should make a plan with the CFI to reach your goals. As the customer you are paying them to do a job. You are NOT going to flight school to build time you are there to get a licence. The system can not be blamed if the student only makes 1 booking a week. If every one of your flights is working out to be 1.3 or 1.4 your instructor is padding his/her log book with your money. The airport is also a BIG factor in how long it will take. If your flying out of Toronto Buttonville (CYKZ) don’t complain that you did not get your licence in 50 hours like your friend in Cornwall (CYCC).
P

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:57 am

TC Guy wrote:
TorontoGuy wrote:Is the suggestion that the system is purposely weighted against people who can't fly more than once a day for 6 weeks? 'Cause I think there are a lot of people like me, who are getting the PPL for pleasure, and have a job/career already (that's paying for the training)
My friend... the "system" you are talking about is not weighted against *ANYONE*. Flight training requires a student to meet a minimum level of skill. If that student has difficulty meeting that level of skill given their situation, they have three real options:

1) consider flying more often, so that they are not re-learning skills from the last lesson

2) consider putting off their training until your lifestyle/financial situation will allow you to do more regular training

3) realize that they will not complete in anything close to minimum time if they fly only a few times a month (or less)

Those are the honest, real facts.

-Guy

Oh, I understand that, no problem. I was being somewhat facetious. My point was that unless you're a fulltime flight student, it's unlikely you're going to have time to complete a PPL in 5-7 weeks. So, while, as in the example, 30+ students did it in that time, it doesn't seem a scenario with much meaning for the average student. So, I was asking if the poster's implication was that it couldn't be done in under 50 hours unless you do it within about 7 weeks.

SkyWolfe · Post by **SkyWolfe** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:43 am

Im still waiting Cat are you gonna teach me or what?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:26 am

Good morning TC Guy:

I shall try and respond to this..

" HOWEVER... that is a pretty bold statement to make. Since it is nearly impossible to prove without doing it, why make the statement in the first place? The tone was rather derogatory, considering that people have met the current standards (if you agree with them or not) in the amount of flight time you stated above... and yet you have no data to support your hypothesis? "

NOTE!!!!

Before I go any further with this discussion I want Transport Canada Civil Aviation to understand that I am no longer a part of the aviation community in Canada and in fact I am your biggest enemy and hold all you stand for in utter contempt.

Now TC Guy as long as you understand the above I will clearly outline why I made this statement after you give me the average time for a PPL in Canada.

Remember this is not a personal thing between you and I as individuals

I do not make statements that I feel I can not support, so give me the actual average time in Canada to receive a PPL and I will defend my statement and outline exactly how I would conduct the training..

Cat

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:28 am

If you'll noitice TorontoGuy, this is a forum discussing a 'better way to get a PPL'.

I outlined my ideas on what I know works. All that I am suggesting is that if you want to meet the minimums and therefore save a lot of money and time, it is more advantageous to take the time off from your job and do all the training at once.

So, I was asking if the poster's implication was that it couldn't be done in under 50 hours unless you do it within about 7 weeks.

Yes it is possible. Just not very likely.

Also, I said I only know of 30+ individuals who did their training this way... Those are the people I know personally. The Air Cadet Programme graduates approx. 150 PPL's every summer through a 7 week course.

I don't honestly care if your life situation does or doesn't enable you to fly more than once every six weeks. I'm giving my suggestions, the onus is on you for realization or discarding of said suggestions.

Anti

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:29 am

When I used to be a full-time CFI, about 10 years ago, the recreational permit had just come out. With the right student, I could get them to do their flight test in 25 hours. Yes, 25 hours flight time.

If the student wasn't motivated, or focussed, or had very poor aptitude, it would take longer.

However, what I see these days are instructors outright milking their students. I know a young guy, wanted his commercial licence. He owns his own airplane, has built up almost 1000 hours in it. He went to a local school, and the instructor told him it would take 5 pre-flight tests.

Gimme a break. 5 pre-flight tests?! First, you fly with the guy, and evaluate him, then you have some idea of what you need to get done, to get him up to standards.

I may be wrong, but most instructors that I see these days are either incompetent or outright milking.

Oh yeah, another student I know of, has 35 hours and still not solo. Blame the student for poor aptitude, etc. Bullshit. I took the student up in the Pitts, and in a matter of minutes, had the student flying rolls, loops and 1/2 cuban eights.

I say again: instructors these days are either overwhelmingly incompetent or milkers. How else to explain 100 hours to a private licence? You ought to be ashamed of yourselves, guys.

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