Ok people....
Who really thinks that Buzz H is doing a good job? Disasterous in my opinion. Why the hell can't he just co-operate so perhaps the airline can be saved....where will the Canadian industry go when Air C is dead? The government will have no choice but to let foreign carriers operate in Canada! And I suppose then the American government will allow Canadian pilot's to work in the States, right? Air C moves 60,000 people per day. Who is going to step up and replace that? Canjet? Maybe cargo jet can passenger configure some of their 727's. Complete and utterly
B%LLSH*T!!!!!!!!
Anyways, Buzz looks great to his membership, putting up a good fight, not backing down, strong to the end! That's fantastic! That's all he cares about, looking good....because when his CAW is responsible for the downfall of Air C (which it looks like they will be), he'll pack up his bags, say goodbye to his 4,500 members, and move it on out to ambush the next factory that opens up and needs a union!
He doesn't care, because he already represents tens of thousands of workers and he'll have thousands more knocking on his door.
And by the way, why the hell is an auto union representing airline employees? Can anyone explain this to me?
Let's talk about Buzz!
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Sqwak 7600
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just another pilot
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Panama Jack
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The idea that lossing AC would be a bad thing for the industry is a myth. If AC were gone It would take some time to recover but the industry would be on much more solid ground.
WestJet, CanJet, Jetsgo would all have the ability to contract out airplanes for routes not currently flown. What does this mean. Profitable routes would be flown, non-profitable routs would be discarded. Even if American airliners were aloud in their would be some restrictions placed on them to protect the growth of airlines in canada.
Getting rid of the cancer that is AC and all 9 of it's unions would be a good thing for this industry.
I'm not saying there won't be some growing pains but I'd rather go on without AC then have them survive on life support for the next year. Refussing to pay for leases of there planes, airport reconstuction and any other bills. Their are alot of companies in aviation sufferring because we keep proloning the inevitable death of AC
For those of you concerned about what this will do to your job prospects, I wouldn't worry, former employees of AC are still going to fly. It's not like the planes they have are just going to stop flying. The only difference is they will be making a more reasonable amount working under contract.
WestJet, CanJet, Jetsgo would all have the ability to contract out airplanes for routes not currently flown. What does this mean. Profitable routes would be flown, non-profitable routs would be discarded. Even if American airliners were aloud in their would be some restrictions placed on them to protect the growth of airlines in canada.
Getting rid of the cancer that is AC and all 9 of it's unions would be a good thing for this industry.
I'm not saying there won't be some growing pains but I'd rather go on without AC then have them survive on life support for the next year. Refussing to pay for leases of there planes, airport reconstuction and any other bills. Their are alot of companies in aviation sufferring because we keep proloning the inevitable death of AC
For those of you concerned about what this will do to your job prospects, I wouldn't worry, former employees of AC are still going to fly. It's not like the planes they have are just going to stop flying. The only difference is they will be making a more reasonable amount working under contract.
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tailgunner
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I believe that the 4500 union members are customer service types. heres a suggestion...fire them. The other unions are not going to back them up because they have already settled. The 2 days of training that these people have ( which in their unions opinion makes them a valuable asset)can easily be caught up with on the new people that you bring in. Tell Buzz H to go fornicate with himself and to take his uneducated union with him.
Having had experience on both sides of the fence meaning from the Union side as well as management, the Buzz days of negotiations are over in my opinion. I would not tolerate the kind of language that seems to be the norm for this negotiator.
I am a Unionist in that I do belong to a Union. I have been fearing some of what is going on now for years. Comes a point and time when keeping the brotherhood/sisterhood thing going is getting too expensive. Having said that I would probably be shot and peed on for thinking that way by my Union. How much is too much? When does making a comfortable living start? Have the Unions become too greedy?
As you work your way through a contract it is Managements job to minimize the $ impact and Unions job to maximize. During this process their will be lots of huffing and puffing and threats of blowing houses down, stikes, lockouts, ect..., but how often have you seen a business shut down completely. It does happen, but not very often. I sometimes think that if you could sign a contract right away without the bs that goes along with it all would come ahead. The money wasted on lawyers and negotiators, and it is big bucks, would be better spent on the employees or the companies bottom line which is good for both sides.
This is an interesting topic that generates all sorts of different opinions. I don't think it is wrong to belong to a Union I just feel that we're moving into a time when their is little wiggle room for both parties. Interest rates are going up, cost of living is increasing, all in all tough times ahead.
I am a Unionist in that I do belong to a Union. I have been fearing some of what is going on now for years. Comes a point and time when keeping the brotherhood/sisterhood thing going is getting too expensive. Having said that I would probably be shot and peed on for thinking that way by my Union. How much is too much? When does making a comfortable living start? Have the Unions become too greedy?
As you work your way through a contract it is Managements job to minimize the $ impact and Unions job to maximize. During this process their will be lots of huffing and puffing and threats of blowing houses down, stikes, lockouts, ect..., but how often have you seen a business shut down completely. It does happen, but not very often. I sometimes think that if you could sign a contract right away without the bs that goes along with it all would come ahead. The money wasted on lawyers and negotiators, and it is big bucks, would be better spent on the employees or the companies bottom line which is good for both sides.
This is an interesting topic that generates all sorts of different opinions. I don't think it is wrong to belong to a Union I just feel that we're moving into a time when their is little wiggle room for both parties. Interest rates are going up, cost of living is increasing, all in all tough times ahead.
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scubasteve
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The idea of a union to look out for the well being of employees is a good one but it is going too far. I just read that staff in the Rocky Mountain National Parks might be going on strike with wages being the major concern...If the people in the booths and lifeguards at the hot springs weren't making over $20 when the same job pays $8-9 just down the road outside the park then I might have some sympathy. Highschool education allows you to make $80k as a robot building cars but an $80k investment for university and flight training gets you a 1 in 50 chance at a job that eventually pays that well. It just makes me wonder
I don't understand how he can unilaterally make decisions that really don't affect him at all. Doesn't seem right. At some point he should be required to take ACs offer to the membership for a vote.
If AC goes down, Buzz should be held accountable. The guy loves to grandstand and look tough in front of all the boys putting cars together in Oshawa and Windsor. If AC goes under, Buzz isn't going to lose any money, and the decrease in union dues will hardly be noticed.
If AC goes down, Buzz should be held accountable. The guy loves to grandstand and look tough in front of all the boys putting cars together in Oshawa and Windsor. If AC goes under, Buzz isn't going to lose any money, and the decrease in union dues will hardly be noticed.
Well this should come as no surprise to anyone as Buzz is following his game plan hoping to create a crisis so that the government will be forced too step in. Perhaps Buzz even factored in the Judge being asked to make the contract decision. Either way Buzz can now claim his hands are clean. He may get a surprise however if AC liquidates.
Personally in this new age we are now living in, Buzz's method of negotiations is passé.
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Personally in this new age we are now living in, Buzz's method of negotiations is passé.
__________________
Curious about how many of you guys keening for that great job at 'the majors,' are so busy union-bashing. How the hell do you think that they got to be such good jobs? Without the unions, airline pilots would all be making $peanuts/yr and flying 200 hours/month.
I have some clients at a Chinese airline who came to us for some upgrade training. They had been flying RJs and they (both) had 2500 hours in 'em, 2100 hours command. I asked them how long they had been flying the Skidoo and they said ONE YEAR. These guys were selected to be pilots out of over a million applicants for flight school (per year) so you know they were sharp. They worked 7 days a week, but boy could they program an FMS (4 fingers). The joke was when they pulled into the jetway they opened up the overhead hatch so a bucket of noodles could be lowered in so they could eat. They have no electronic flight planning so they did it all themselves in addition to their flying duties. They were choked because their 'promotion' meant fewer hours flight time but less money!
Communist countries, even quasi-communist like PRC do not like unions. Do you think flying your crappy schedules and lifestyles would be any better if it was in an Airbus? The PRC guys lived 3 to a room in the Travelodge when they were here - wanna share your hotel room with your copilot, steward, and 3 flight-bags and cook in your room? Believe me, the guys who are at the top of the list at AC bid their positions so they could fly LESS, not more.
No matter what you think of Buzz Hargrove as a person, his job is to
represent his union members and that's bloody well what he's doing. Do you really think the unions killed/will kill AC? Do you think the investors will walk over $18 million? Any idea what it costs to buy a starter or an hydraulic pump for a 767? There's way more going on here than we will ever know about.
Call me a cynic (ouch, you bully) but a case of beer says Westjet has a union by the end of the decade. Note that a WJ trip across the country is the most expensive option unless you book 6 months in advance. As soon as the first C checks start to come up on those new jets in 3 or 4 years, the creative accounting Clyde uses will see the profit-share checks vanish
and the "WJ Pilot Association" will arise from the discontent.
Personnally I don't wish to work for an outfit with a union, but when I did, it sure protected me at promotion-time when the boss' buddy was a number or two behind me!
I have some clients at a Chinese airline who came to us for some upgrade training. They had been flying RJs and they (both) had 2500 hours in 'em, 2100 hours command. I asked them how long they had been flying the Skidoo and they said ONE YEAR. These guys were selected to be pilots out of over a million applicants for flight school (per year) so you know they were sharp. They worked 7 days a week, but boy could they program an FMS (4 fingers). The joke was when they pulled into the jetway they opened up the overhead hatch so a bucket of noodles could be lowered in so they could eat. They have no electronic flight planning so they did it all themselves in addition to their flying duties. They were choked because their 'promotion' meant fewer hours flight time but less money!
Communist countries, even quasi-communist like PRC do not like unions. Do you think flying your crappy schedules and lifestyles would be any better if it was in an Airbus? The PRC guys lived 3 to a room in the Travelodge when they were here - wanna share your hotel room with your copilot, steward, and 3 flight-bags and cook in your room? Believe me, the guys who are at the top of the list at AC bid their positions so they could fly LESS, not more.
No matter what you think of Buzz Hargrove as a person, his job is to
represent his union members and that's bloody well what he's doing. Do you really think the unions killed/will kill AC? Do you think the investors will walk over $18 million? Any idea what it costs to buy a starter or an hydraulic pump for a 767? There's way more going on here than we will ever know about.
Call me a cynic (ouch, you bully) but a case of beer says Westjet has a union by the end of the decade. Note that a WJ trip across the country is the most expensive option unless you book 6 months in advance. As soon as the first C checks start to come up on those new jets in 3 or 4 years, the creative accounting Clyde uses will see the profit-share checks vanish
and the "WJ Pilot Association" will arise from the discontent.
Personnally I don't wish to work for an outfit with a union, but when I did, it sure protected me at promotion-time when the boss' buddy was a number or two behind me!
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Yes, it was the Air Canada Union that created the TC rules that say 1200 hours a year per pilot. So WestJet should thank Air Canada's union's for allowing their pilots to use the Air Canada 1200hr/yr law. Wow, the unions must have had everyones best interests at heart..xsbank wrote:Without the unions, airline pilots would all be making $peanuts/yr and flying 200 hours/month.
Wow, Cathay works their boys to sh8t. Funny how we have "EXPATS" flocking to Cathay's door..I have some clients at a Chinese airline who came to us for some upgrade training. They had been flying RJs and they (both) had 2500 hours in 'em, 2100 hours command. I asked them how long they had been flying the Skidoo and they said ONE YEAR.
No, Commies love "unions" the thing that is found in North America your beloved "union" is a capitalistic monster it doesn't care about it's members just it's pocket books..Communist countries, even quasi-communist like PRC do not like unions.
Go look at France, their precious 12 week/yr holidays and 35 hour work week is in jeapordy because their country can't support that luxury anymore, chirac said they might have to work 40/hrs soon. The unions would rather have their country crumble.. Brilliant logic..
http://ca.fullcoverage.yahoo.com/fc/bre ... ructuring/No matter what you think of Buzz Hargrove as a person, his job is torepresent his union members and that's bloody well what he's doing. Do you really think the unions killed/will kill AC?
Air Canada Breaks Off Talks With CAW Union
Umm, read the negative threads about wj, people suspect it'll be dead in a decade already. But for your theory, unions are so great.. Call up McDonald's ask to speak with their Union Head..Call me a cynic (ouch, you bully) but a case of beer says Westjet has a union by the end of the decade.
And that chinese guy who was smarter then you but was #3. But atleast you're honest and admit you weren't a good worker but your union gave you a promotion regardless of your skill and let the good workers sufer. and you "when you did" can be misconstrued and taken as after they promoted you and fired/downsized the chinese guy the company went broke because it had no good employees.when I did, it sure protected me at promotion-time when the boss' buddy was a number or two behind me!
The real issue is union power
Terence Corcoran
National Post
Thursday, May 20, 2004
Buzz Hargrove always seems to know what he's doing, so why do an awful lot of people think the Canadian Auto Workers leader has suddenly lost his grip? An $850-million deal to rescue Air Canada has been initialed by every banker, investor, pension manager, regulator and union leader involved. But there's Buzz, holding out, apparently blowing up the deal for the sake of a couple of million dollars and a few of his airline workers.
Some say Mr. Hargrove is playing to a bigger audience, the vast multi-industry CAW membership, and therefore doesn't care all that much about the fate of the few thousand members who work for Air Canada. By playing the Air Canada negotiations out to the last, right up to the brink and beyond, he proves to hundreds of thousands of CAW members and potential members that, hey, here's a guy who will stand up for our rights, right to the end.
Of course, if the end means the end of Air Canada, such a strategy would be counter-productive, even self-destructive. How much cache would be left if all Mr. Hargrove had to show for his brinkmanship was a wasted airline. "I'm the guy who killed Air Canada" would be a tough slogan to run on at the next CAW leadership contest.
If that theory is debatable, what are the other explanations for what appears to be a suicidal mission? Certainly Mr. Hargrove doesn't see his negotiating position as some kind of wild end-game. As he explains on this page, there's a lot of built up background that lends some support to his position that this is not the end. "I don't think the airline's going down," he told a news conference yesterday, "I don't think that's even a remote possibility."
He may well be right. Liquidation of Air Canada at this stage would be a no-win situation for everyone, including Mr. Hargrove and CAW members who work for the airline. Furthermore, he seems to clearly understand that Ottawa is not going to bail out Air Canada with a typical Canadian solution to airline problems. "The government is not coming in," Mr. Hargrove said yesterday.
But what, exactly, is Mr. Hargrove expecting to happen? He's been floating the idea that there's a group of investors out there who are waiting to move in to pick up where Deutsche Bank will leave things if they don't get a deal. He's given names to the media: Onex, Texas Pacific Group and the Ontario Teachers' Pension Fund as parties willing to step up to the Air Canada plate if Deutsche Bank leaves town.
The worrying thing here is that there appears to be little interest from some members of this group. Nothing from Onex suggests they plan to rush into the vacuum. Ontario Teachers is a backer of West-Jet. Do they want to begin bailing out West-Jet's main competitor? One source told me that from all he's heard about Texas Pacific, they are simply not interested.
Now it is possible that some of Mr. Hargrove's prospective buyers will be interested in Air Canada should the Deutsche Bank abandon its plan. But here, too, Mr. Hargrove's strategy looks a little shaky to an outsider. Those of us who have minimal negotiating skills or talent are in no position to advise an old pro like Mr. Hargrove, but it seems unlikely to me that the next bidder to come along, whether it's Onex or Don Carty or Gerald Greenwald, is going to come in with a better offer than Deutsche Bank.
Mr. Hargrove seems to think the third or fourth bidders to come along are going to be stupider than the one that's in the room. The next investor to look at Air Canada will be in an even stronger negotiating position, knowing that two major players have walked away and the field of alternatives is getting smaller and smaller.
Even if another investor group does come along, chances are it will want even larger concessions from the CAW and other unions. Mr. Hargrove likes to think that Air Canada big airline with 50% of the Canadian market, 90% of foreign flights out of Canada and nearly $1-billion in cash. "Give me that model, even I can make money." It's a cute and clever quip, but the fact is that it's not his money that's going to be on the line at Air Canada.
And that, ultimately, gets to the heart of the issue, which is union power. There's no way to understand the full range of issues at play in any negotiation, especially one as complex as Air Canada's. The fact is that the future of an airline should not hang on the power of a union to hold up a negotiation and exert such control over what should be a business process.
An employer, especially a company in such dire straits as Air Canada, should have the right to set its own labour conditions. If employees don't want to work under the conditions established by the company, then the employees should leave and, if necessary, the company should have the right to replace those workers with others who will work.
Mr. Hargrove is a great guy and a great negotiator, but he really should not have the power he has.
© National Post 2004
Terence Corcoran
National Post
Thursday, May 20, 2004
Buzz Hargrove always seems to know what he's doing, so why do an awful lot of people think the Canadian Auto Workers leader has suddenly lost his grip? An $850-million deal to rescue Air Canada has been initialed by every banker, investor, pension manager, regulator and union leader involved. But there's Buzz, holding out, apparently blowing up the deal for the sake of a couple of million dollars and a few of his airline workers.
Some say Mr. Hargrove is playing to a bigger audience, the vast multi-industry CAW membership, and therefore doesn't care all that much about the fate of the few thousand members who work for Air Canada. By playing the Air Canada negotiations out to the last, right up to the brink and beyond, he proves to hundreds of thousands of CAW members and potential members that, hey, here's a guy who will stand up for our rights, right to the end.
Of course, if the end means the end of Air Canada, such a strategy would be counter-productive, even self-destructive. How much cache would be left if all Mr. Hargrove had to show for his brinkmanship was a wasted airline. "I'm the guy who killed Air Canada" would be a tough slogan to run on at the next CAW leadership contest.
If that theory is debatable, what are the other explanations for what appears to be a suicidal mission? Certainly Mr. Hargrove doesn't see his negotiating position as some kind of wild end-game. As he explains on this page, there's a lot of built up background that lends some support to his position that this is not the end. "I don't think the airline's going down," he told a news conference yesterday, "I don't think that's even a remote possibility."
He may well be right. Liquidation of Air Canada at this stage would be a no-win situation for everyone, including Mr. Hargrove and CAW members who work for the airline. Furthermore, he seems to clearly understand that Ottawa is not going to bail out Air Canada with a typical Canadian solution to airline problems. "The government is not coming in," Mr. Hargrove said yesterday.
But what, exactly, is Mr. Hargrove expecting to happen? He's been floating the idea that there's a group of investors out there who are waiting to move in to pick up where Deutsche Bank will leave things if they don't get a deal. He's given names to the media: Onex, Texas Pacific Group and the Ontario Teachers' Pension Fund as parties willing to step up to the Air Canada plate if Deutsche Bank leaves town.
The worrying thing here is that there appears to be little interest from some members of this group. Nothing from Onex suggests they plan to rush into the vacuum. Ontario Teachers is a backer of West-Jet. Do they want to begin bailing out West-Jet's main competitor? One source told me that from all he's heard about Texas Pacific, they are simply not interested.
Now it is possible that some of Mr. Hargrove's prospective buyers will be interested in Air Canada should the Deutsche Bank abandon its plan. But here, too, Mr. Hargrove's strategy looks a little shaky to an outsider. Those of us who have minimal negotiating skills or talent are in no position to advise an old pro like Mr. Hargrove, but it seems unlikely to me that the next bidder to come along, whether it's Onex or Don Carty or Gerald Greenwald, is going to come in with a better offer than Deutsche Bank.
Mr. Hargrove seems to think the third or fourth bidders to come along are going to be stupider than the one that's in the room. The next investor to look at Air Canada will be in an even stronger negotiating position, knowing that two major players have walked away and the field of alternatives is getting smaller and smaller.
Even if another investor group does come along, chances are it will want even larger concessions from the CAW and other unions. Mr. Hargrove likes to think that Air Canada big airline with 50% of the Canadian market, 90% of foreign flights out of Canada and nearly $1-billion in cash. "Give me that model, even I can make money." It's a cute and clever quip, but the fact is that it's not his money that's going to be on the line at Air Canada.
And that, ultimately, gets to the heart of the issue, which is union power. There's no way to understand the full range of issues at play in any negotiation, especially one as complex as Air Canada's. The fact is that the future of an airline should not hang on the power of a union to hold up a negotiation and exert such control over what should be a business process.
An employer, especially a company in such dire straits as Air Canada, should have the right to set its own labour conditions. If employees don't want to work under the conditions established by the company, then the employees should leave and, if necessary, the company should have the right to replace those workers with others who will work.
Mr. Hargrove is a great guy and a great negotiator, but he really should not have the power he has.
© National Post 2004
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Sqwak 7600
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Here's a thought 
Why doesn't Buzz approach the "Big 3" CAW auto workers and get them to invest in Air Canada, hmmmmm? There's a plan. Those guys down in Windsor and where-ever-the hell else make close to a hundred grand a year installing ash trays in chrysler neon's....they can pony up the cash. My last calculation by calculator showed me that at approx. 20,000 CAW's multiplied by $5,000 a piece off their paychecks for 1 year would produce about $100 million in cash!
There's the solution....Buzz would be a real hero...they'd be talking about it for months, maybe even days!
Why doesn't Buzz approach the "Big 3" CAW auto workers and get them to invest in Air Canada, hmmmmm? There's a plan. Those guys down in Windsor and where-ever-the hell else make close to a hundred grand a year installing ash trays in chrysler neon's....they can pony up the cash. My last calculation by calculator showed me that at approx. 20,000 CAW's multiplied by $5,000 a piece off their paychecks for 1 year would produce about $100 million in cash!
There's the solution....Buzz would be a real hero...they'd be talking about it for months, maybe even days!
Ok just a comment about unions. I know the issue is with AC and the customer service agents. But when i worked ramp at YVR AC had guys making like 30 bucks an hour to sling bags and none of them actually worked i recal one guy who would sit in the bag room watching TV while some part time kid hiked bags. One guy i knew was even running his own fencing business on his cell phone while "working" at AC. The Union would also protect employes that stole from customers bags, they would just claim that they have an addiction to stealing and would be sent for help with full pay!! I think unions have become to political its all just a front that they put up for the people, standing up to business to save face and your right at the end of the day if AC does go down Buzz walks away just like a politician that looses an election, "oh well ill run again in 4 years" meanwhile thousands are out of work.
But honestly I think we should be talking about ROBERT MILTON here hes the one who ran the TITANIC into the Iceberg. Just look at his track record trying to go toe to toe with westjet and operating routes at a loss give me a break does butfuck nowhere really need 5 737 flights aday just to get market share. AC should stick to what there good at Overseas travel and the major markets in Canada. Let Private business pick up the slack to the smaller communities EG look at Pasco and Hawk Air.
thats my rant for the week this midnight sun is great
But honestly I think we should be talking about ROBERT MILTON here hes the one who ran the TITANIC into the Iceberg. Just look at his track record trying to go toe to toe with westjet and operating routes at a loss give me a break does butfuck nowhere really need 5 737 flights aday just to get market share. AC should stick to what there good at Overseas travel and the major markets in Canada. Let Private business pick up the slack to the smaller communities EG look at Pasco and Hawk Air.
thats my rant for the week this midnight sun is great
The CAW and AC are about 27 million apart in their positions. That is less than 1% of the value of AC. Do you really think AC will be forced into liquidation over 1% of their value? Everyone was saying if Li walked away there would be nobody else, and their was. Now they're saying if DB walks there will be nobody else. Hargrove is not a fool. Like the business people he negotiates against, he's the head of a multi-million dollar enterprise.
There is obviously money to be made here or nobody would ever have been interested. The real question for potential investors is how much can I make investing in AC vs other investment opportunities I might have for my money? Hargrove is negotiating to help his members keep a little more, and the investors a little less.
The anti-unionists on this board are blindly buying into the right wing rehtoric that working people are over paid, businesses can't compete, inefficient, etc, etc, etc. The reality is that business profits are higher than ever, and the wealthy in this country are wealthier than ever. The blue collar middle class is shrinking and rapidly dividing into the haves and have nots.
Unions created the middle class in North America during the post WWII industrial boom. A general labour shortage and rapid economic expansion allowed them to negotiate collective agreements that changed the distribution of wealth in society. The wealtiest were having to give a larger slice of the pie to their workers and a middle class developed. Now, we no longer have a labour shortage and the political right is trying to use that to their advantage. If they can get working people to compete for fewer jobs they can get away with paying lower labour costs. Lower labour costs equal higher profits and a bigger slice of pie for the people at the top.
The unions are only saying that companies should pay a decent salary and provide respectable working conditions regardless of the availablility of labour. In other words, people (labour) should not be treated as just another commodity like pork bellies and orange juice.
There is obviously money to be made here or nobody would ever have been interested. The real question for potential investors is how much can I make investing in AC vs other investment opportunities I might have for my money? Hargrove is negotiating to help his members keep a little more, and the investors a little less.
The anti-unionists on this board are blindly buying into the right wing rehtoric that working people are over paid, businesses can't compete, inefficient, etc, etc, etc. The reality is that business profits are higher than ever, and the wealthy in this country are wealthier than ever. The blue collar middle class is shrinking and rapidly dividing into the haves and have nots.
Unions created the middle class in North America during the post WWII industrial boom. A general labour shortage and rapid economic expansion allowed them to negotiate collective agreements that changed the distribution of wealth in society. The wealtiest were having to give a larger slice of the pie to their workers and a middle class developed. Now, we no longer have a labour shortage and the political right is trying to use that to their advantage. If they can get working people to compete for fewer jobs they can get away with paying lower labour costs. Lower labour costs equal higher profits and a bigger slice of pie for the people at the top.
The unions are only saying that companies should pay a decent salary and provide respectable working conditions regardless of the availablility of labour. In other words, people (labour) should not be treated as just another commodity like pork bellies and orange juice.
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Mostly Harmless
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Victor Li offer:
Workers take a collective $1 billion + cut in wage and benefits….
Robert Milton (one person) gets a $20 million bonus.
If I worked there, I’d be pissed too. No way I would sign a deal like that.
The Management of Air Canada needs to take the same hits as the line people, or in other words they need to lead by example. If the President can’t take the same cut (percentage of income and benefits (yes, that means bonuses and options)) that the staff are expected to take then why should Joe line worker shoulder all of the burden.
Workers take a collective $1 billion + cut in wage and benefits….
Robert Milton (one person) gets a $20 million bonus.
If I worked there, I’d be pissed too. No way I would sign a deal like that.
The Management of Air Canada needs to take the same hits as the line people, or in other words they need to lead by example. If the President can’t take the same cut (percentage of income and benefits (yes, that means bonuses and options)) that the staff are expected to take then why should Joe line worker shoulder all of the burden.
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Sqwak 7600
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- Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:22 am
- Location: Ontario
Sorry people if I seem a little bitter towards the CAW. I've just seen unions ruin too many companies. It's sad to see these unions brought in to protect the lazy employees we know all too well.
8 years ago, when I worked in an automotive factory out of highschool, the CAW pushed hard to get in the front doors. It seemed out of 150 employess, about 120 of them felt it wasn't fair that they actually had to "work" when they came to work. Discracefull, isn't it? How dare the company vie to make a profit and give people good jobs (and pay them quite well with great benefits i might add). Well, after a solid fight by 30 of us, the CAW enter into our lives.....and from that day forward, all hell broke loose. Work stoppages because apparent poor lighting, apparent ventilation problems, fighting for more coffee breaks (so the riffraff could go smoke their pot)....i can go on and on. A complete joke!
All the union did was create segragation between management and the workers (of which I thought the management types were great). The relationships the good workers had with management were gone forever.
When it came to the next contract negotiations, the CAW felt we needed a %25 raise! The company threatened to close up and move. It didn't and hasn't yet, but the time is very near, and layoffs are happening at an alarming rate because the company cannot bid on new business because salaries are too high.
So if I sound bitter, I am because I'm sick of the unions controlling the companies that have made it possible for this country to be a major player in world trade markets. I'm sick of seeing them ruin the average person's life. I know unions were created post world war II because of poor working conditions, but come on people, this is the 21st century, we have laws to protect us against those unsafe conditions.
The CAW doesn't employ people, it just makes damn sure a descent salary is paid so in ten years time it's members can look for a new job because the company that actually pays the wages goes out of business.
8 years ago, when I worked in an automotive factory out of highschool, the CAW pushed hard to get in the front doors. It seemed out of 150 employess, about 120 of them felt it wasn't fair that they actually had to "work" when they came to work. Discracefull, isn't it? How dare the company vie to make a profit and give people good jobs (and pay them quite well with great benefits i might add). Well, after a solid fight by 30 of us, the CAW enter into our lives.....and from that day forward, all hell broke loose. Work stoppages because apparent poor lighting, apparent ventilation problems, fighting for more coffee breaks (so the riffraff could go smoke their pot)....i can go on and on. A complete joke!
All the union did was create segragation between management and the workers (of which I thought the management types were great). The relationships the good workers had with management were gone forever.
When it came to the next contract negotiations, the CAW felt we needed a %25 raise! The company threatened to close up and move. It didn't and hasn't yet, but the time is very near, and layoffs are happening at an alarming rate because the company cannot bid on new business because salaries are too high.
So if I sound bitter, I am because I'm sick of the unions controlling the companies that have made it possible for this country to be a major player in world trade markets. I'm sick of seeing them ruin the average person's life. I know unions were created post world war II because of poor working conditions, but come on people, this is the 21st century, we have laws to protect us against those unsafe conditions.
The CAW doesn't employ people, it just makes damn sure a descent salary is paid so in ten years time it's members can look for a new job because the company that actually pays the wages goes out of business.
I believe that companies get the union that they deserve. If the union was not there to protect the workers, the company would trample on them. Generally speaking, they work well for larger companies, but smaller ones will get 'em too if the management treats the employees like dirt. In a free market for labour, where the assumption is made that a worker is free to vote with his feet, wages and working conditions are set at a level to keep the worker from leaving ("honey catches more flies than vinegar"). Remember what it was like a few years ago when the industry was booming and you couldn't hire a mechanic because there was a shortage and wages were bid up? Now jobs are scarce: if you've got one you better hang on to it; wages are being bid down now because there's tons of workers around and the companies don't need to worry about retention, nor do they need to worry about the cost of training.
I was around when the coastal float operators started getting unions because the forests were booming and you worked 7 days a week in the summer; unions worked well for a while, but then times boomed again and the 'brothers' moved on to better companies and the unions faded away. So did the trees. Not to mention that many firms went out of business, as almost all of them do. (Just to stir the pot a bit, ever worked for an airline that was run by a pilot? Most of them go t%ts up. The percentage of companies that are run by educated management? Rare.)
Did anyone see that article in The Economist a while ago that described corporations as psychopaths? Totally self-interested; solely concerned with shareholder value; completely amoral in the pursuit of profits; everything including worker safety subjugated for profits; CEO performance judged solely on the strength of their bottom lines, inflated due to "downsizing" etc.
Did you hear AC lamenting the sad fact that the coming-to- terms with the unions means the loss of a significant part of its workforce? Or that the company was so badly managed that those that stay are taking significant cuts in pay and benefits?
Those of you who think that AC gives a flying fzck for its people have your heads very firmly in the sand. Buzz Hargrove may be a primadonna and a publicity hound but he knows that the fewer CAW people working for AC means fewer dues and a smaller bonus for him, too. Not to mention all the union rhetoric that goes along with it.
In my 30+ years in this business I have seen/worked for union and non-union companies. Although I have chosen to work in a non-union firm now, I would overwhelmingly praise those unions that have gone before us and have given us the few good working conditions that we now enjoy. As soon as this industry turns around, and believe me it will, you will see the end of the Jetsgo pay-yer-own-type-rating and you will see WJ unionize, and all the chicken-shit outfits that treated us like dirt when times were bad will either not prosper or will go to the wall because no one with any value will stand for that treatment when times are good.
I was around when the coastal float operators started getting unions because the forests were booming and you worked 7 days a week in the summer; unions worked well for a while, but then times boomed again and the 'brothers' moved on to better companies and the unions faded away. So did the trees. Not to mention that many firms went out of business, as almost all of them do. (Just to stir the pot a bit, ever worked for an airline that was run by a pilot? Most of them go t%ts up. The percentage of companies that are run by educated management? Rare.)
Did anyone see that article in The Economist a while ago that described corporations as psychopaths? Totally self-interested; solely concerned with shareholder value; completely amoral in the pursuit of profits; everything including worker safety subjugated for profits; CEO performance judged solely on the strength of their bottom lines, inflated due to "downsizing" etc.
Did you hear AC lamenting the sad fact that the coming-to- terms with the unions means the loss of a significant part of its workforce? Or that the company was so badly managed that those that stay are taking significant cuts in pay and benefits?
Those of you who think that AC gives a flying fzck for its people have your heads very firmly in the sand. Buzz Hargrove may be a primadonna and a publicity hound but he knows that the fewer CAW people working for AC means fewer dues and a smaller bonus for him, too. Not to mention all the union rhetoric that goes along with it.
In my 30+ years in this business I have seen/worked for union and non-union companies. Although I have chosen to work in a non-union firm now, I would overwhelmingly praise those unions that have gone before us and have given us the few good working conditions that we now enjoy. As soon as this industry turns around, and believe me it will, you will see the end of the Jetsgo pay-yer-own-type-rating and you will see WJ unionize, and all the chicken-shit outfits that treated us like dirt when times were bad will either not prosper or will go to the wall because no one with any value will stand for that treatment when times are good.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
To CYYZ et al:
* Ex-pats are only "...flocking to Cathay's door..." because there are no good jobs in Canada and our natural direction, south, is prohibited to us unless we all have MBAs.
* There are no unions in China or Cuba. I can't think of any other surviving c. countries.
* I don't know anything about the French conditions, but anyone who demands a nap at midday and pilots who have wine with their lunch before going firebombing are very foreign to me.
* McDonalds does not have a union because it does not need one. The workers have rejected the offer of a union every time they have been asked (I think). The staff are transient and very part-time.
* How did you surmise that I am/wasn't a good worker? Considering you never met me, isn't that just a bit harsh? I'm wounded.
* In fact, downsizing only ever happened one year in that company's history and seniority only got you a kick at the cat. You still had to measure up to get promoted. I'm not there due to choice, and no other reason.
* What Chinese guy are you talking about? I only mentioned a specific country because they were very superior pilots but their working conditions are exactly like ours would be in Canada if we had not had unions in the mix. I did not in any way imply any type of disparagement due to race...
* I AM bitter and twisted, that's true, but its rude if you say it and OK if I do. People will stop buying you beer if you act like that.
* Ex-pats are only "...flocking to Cathay's door..." because there are no good jobs in Canada and our natural direction, south, is prohibited to us unless we all have MBAs.
* There are no unions in China or Cuba. I can't think of any other surviving c. countries.
* I don't know anything about the French conditions, but anyone who demands a nap at midday and pilots who have wine with their lunch before going firebombing are very foreign to me.
* McDonalds does not have a union because it does not need one. The workers have rejected the offer of a union every time they have been asked (I think). The staff are transient and very part-time.
* How did you surmise that I am/wasn't a good worker? Considering you never met me, isn't that just a bit harsh? I'm wounded.
* In fact, downsizing only ever happened one year in that company's history and seniority only got you a kick at the cat. You still had to measure up to get promoted. I'm not there due to choice, and no other reason.
* What Chinese guy are you talking about? I only mentioned a specific country because they were very superior pilots but their working conditions are exactly like ours would be in Canada if we had not had unions in the mix. I did not in any way imply any type of disparagement due to race...
* I AM bitter and twisted, that's true, but its rude if you say it and OK if I do. People will stop buying you beer if you act like that.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
