Periodic Re-testing: What Do You Think?

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:30 am

Should private pilots have to get re-tested -- on paper and in the air -- periodically?

Reason I wonder: Driving to work on Toronto's downtown streets this morning, I came across all the bad habits drivers can accumulate: seeming ignorance of who has the right of way; cutting others off to get ahead in traffic; ignoring traffic signals; negligence with signals, and so forth, in a general sloppiness with the rules of the road and with courtesy for other drivers. Could result in a fender bender, or as much as a death.

I'm thoroughly convinced that drivers should be re-tested on paper for the rules of the road, and behind the wheel for behaviour, every 5 years.

I wondered: Do private pilots fall into similar bad habits? Does your experience suggest to you that re-testing might be a good idea?

Just curious as a topic of discussion.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:37 am

Or we could just train em' correctly the first time around...I'm still waiting for that innovation.

rotateandfly · Post by **rotateandfly** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:47 am

I'm not sure re-testing would be the way to go.
In my opinion it's everyone's own responsibility to brush up on what they may have forgotten over the years once in a while, i know i do.
Sure there are some ignorant pilots out there but it would be difficult to filter them out.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:56 am

There is this large country called the "USA" just to the south of us.

In this "USA" the FAA requires that every pilot perform a 2-year BFR to exercise VFR privileges, and 2-year ICT to exercise IFR privileges.

A BFR, last I heard, was defined as one hour minimum on the ground and one hour minimum in the air with an instructor.

Transport tried to slide that in, oh, about 10 years ago. All sorts of grumps old guys with fabric taildraggers complained that there was no instructor competent to act as PIC on their aircraft, and Transport went with the pencil-whipping route on the 24-month self-paced recurrency test that they mail out, complete with answers.

JW · Post by JW » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:52 am

I wonder how many people own aircraft in the "USA" compared to Canada. In Canada clubs and schools do checkrides.....Often takes about an hour.

JW

mikegtzg · Post by **mikegtzg** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:03 am

Some of the old guys around our field that have full hull insurance on there aircraft must do a bi-annual or yearly checkride with an instructor.
One of the old fellas has a unique aircraft. At least unique to most flight instructors. I've spoken to a instructor after one of these. And they said they learned more from the 'old guy', and want to fly with them again.
The rule is written so that the individual takes responsibility for his own competency. Hopefully most of us will practice our skills, and enjoy the challenge of constantly improving them.
We have rusty pilots on our field as well. And they know it. They wait for 'perfect' flying conditions, fly alone, or with another pilot. And fly out of quiet airstrips. There are pilots on our field that I will not fly with again.
Also a jerk in traffic is likely someone that doesn't pay attention to what they are doing. And aircraft are much more unforgiving of this behaviour.

Hotel Tango · Post by **Hotel Tango** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:02 pm

re: the drivers

I think there are two issues with this.
1: I think that some of the people should NOT have gotten their license in the first place, removing the need for the retest
2: The other DO know how to drive well and safely... They just don't. Once you get them in a test with an examiner they'll do it properly, pass and go home cutting people off and speeding like they were before.

would this apply to the pilots as well?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:04 pm

" would this apply to the pilots as well? "

Of course it would.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:10 pm

Hotel Tango wrote:re: the drivers

2: The other DO know how to drive well and safely... They just don't. Once you get them in a test with an examiner they'll do it properly, pass and go home cutting people off and speeding like they were before.

OK, then I vote for surprise attacks...I mean spotchecks. If they fail, their licences are burned on the spot and their cars are seized and sold, the money used to fix potholes.

Seized planes can be used to fix runways.

All those in favour...

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:21 pm

Toronto Guy:

For chri.t sake TC reads these forums, don't give e'm ideas....

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:30 am

TorontoGuy wrote:
Hotel Tango wrote:re: the drivers

2: The other DO know how to drive well and safely... They just don't. Once you get them in a test with an examiner they'll do it properly, pass and go home cutting people off and speeding like they were before.

OK, then I vote for surprise attacks...I mean spotchecks. If they fail, their licences are burned on the spot and their cars are seized and sold, the money used to fix potholes.

Seized planes can be used to fix runways.

All those in favour...

Hmmm... I will have to take this up with upper management. Sounds like it could work.

Cat Driver wrote:For chri.t sake TC reads these forums, don't give e'm ideas....

too late Cat.. I am drafting the memo now...

-Guy

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:40 am

TC Guy wrote:

Hmmm... I will have to take this up with upper management. Sounds like it could work.

OK, then! Now I've done my public service, when can I expect my Senate appointment in the mail?

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:51 pm

I am not of the opinion that proper training is the total answer. It definitely is part though.The problem is, we forget things and then begin to omit them untill they come up and bite us.

Years ago we spent huge amounts of money on a super training program. It worked. The pilots came back and they were sharp. Then about six months later I am doing a line check and all at once some new procedure is being used....by all of them..And without exception they all explained to the old guy how it was a good idea...until we contacted the manufacturer. Funny as how these little things sneak up on us. I found that most pilots after initial trainingand PPC were really up to snuff but at about 100 hours they started doing some rather wierd things, like suddenly starting to land a little off centreline. Quick refresher and they were back up to snuff. I find it hard to believe that non working pilots dont have the same problems.

so. I am in favor of recurrent training. big time. But I would rather not see it be mandated or completed by those nifty little questionaires. As to the old guys (like me) who claim that no one is good enough to check them out...utter BS. We can all use a little training just to make sure we are reminded of the importance of things like a thorough walk around.

I usually isnt what we dont know that gets us in trouble, its what we think we know that aint so...Abe lincoln

StepOnTheBall · Post by **StepOnTheBall** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:39 pm

rotateandfly wrote:In my opinion it's everyone's own responsibility to brush up on what they may have forgotten over the years once in a while, i know i do.
Sure there are some ignorant pilots out there but it would be difficult to filter them out.

It's unfortunate that more pilots out there aren't proud enough of their piloting privileges to recognize the need to brush up on them.

Where I used to work, I came to realize that there are probably hundreds of 'pilots' out there who keep 'current' by flying about 0.2hrs per month. One, maybe even two circuits (!) if the mood suits them. Just to keep current. I still wonder what the point is of having your license if you have to drag yourself to the airport to stay 'current'. The attitude seemed to be that a checkflight with an instructor would be tantamount to a trip through hell, and actually heard somebody say "if I have to go up with an instructor, I'm just going to quit flying". Do you want to be sharing the skies with these pilots, who will do their 'currency' circuit in 1/2 mile vis just because it is their last day to 'remain current'? What happens when they finally decide to take some friends, family, or children on a flight outside of the circuit (with their green CFS and WAC chart)???

Another brand of 'current' pilots are the long time aircraft owners. You know, the guys who fly once a month or less. The guys who don't do their walkarounds because 'it was fine last time I was up, only about 4 or 5 weeks ago!', nevermind that it sat outside through the windstorm the week previous, and then there was that hailstorm... The guys who fly their circuits so wide that they need their GPS to find the airport back, and then get on the radio and tell others what they are doing wrong with their circuits.

It is for these guys that we need a recurrent training program. No doubt TC would find a way to screw it up (self-checkouts? "Ensure that you conduct one simulated forced approach while acting as PIC to maintain your currency, and make an entry in your logbook to reflect that currency...you shall even give yourself a letter grade between A and F, A meaning excellent, and F meaning that you need to re-try your currency check"), but a well thought out program would likely help to adjust some attitudes towards being proficient. Of course, that wouldn't affect the guys who fly without licenses or currency anyways.

Luckily, the larger portion of pilots are proud of their skills, and not unwilling to demonstrate them and even develop them further when given the chance to take a checkride. Many renters and owners even hire instructors yearly or even more frequently to ensure that they remain proficient, especially for IFR skills. It is of course the responsibility of the instructor to make sure that these checkouts are aimed at proficiency and fun, rather than criticism of the pilot being checked. So yeah, I do think it would be helpful to have periodic testing, especially in the airplane.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:43 pm

Is it necessary to go to a certified flight instructor for recurrent training, or would working commercial pilots be at least as good for doing recurrent training?

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:29 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Is it necessary to go to a certified flight instructor for recurrent training, or would working commercial pilots be at least as good for doing recurrent training?

Interesting question. What I had in mind was having to re-do and pass your flight test and a written test (even PSTAR) on a regular recurring basis. Again, I was talking only about private pilots.

I wasn't thinking so much about people who forget the right things to do, but those who just get sloppy. Back to the car analogy: all these people who make lane changes without signaling, or even turn at intersections without a signal, I'm sure know damn well that they should. Those who run yellow or red lights just to get a little bit ahead, know damn well what yellow and red really mean. One of the few times when people might have actually forgotten is at a 4-way stop. Who has the right of way. But really, how difficult is it to remember the "right" of way. The word is in the phrase.

So, as I asked from your (plural, meaning all of you) experience, do you find pleasure pilots getting sloppy and doing things like ignoring who has the right of way; trying to race ahead and/or cut someone off in a circuit; cutting across runways on the ground, and other lazy or aggressive behaviour? Do the bad habits we see on the streets and highways also show up in aviation?

(CAT: I won't even ask you if there are as many yahoos in commercial aviation as there are in commercial ground travel -- from speeding truckers to insane cabbies.)

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:38 pm

No there are not anywhere near as many, due to the initial and recurrent training needed for driving them...aircraft.