Wings Jan/Feb '06

[Cat Driver]

" I'm going to go pull my wire, "

First sensible thing you have posted here Charlie_G, let us know how it went.

[trey kule]

Charlie g wrote

I'm going to go pull my wire, because that'll be a lot more satisfying than trying to make a point on here.

do I understand this correctly? No more Charlie g?

Well , if he does work for Nav Canada it is step in the right direction.

[bronson]

[If the aviation community thinks it is overtaxed, then talk to your MP about it. quote]

Why the fook do you think we called Collenette the minister of trains?[/quote]

[ahramin]

I really cannot see what your problem is guys. You want the government to provide an ANS for your use. You don't want to pay for it. Does anyone see a problem here?

YOUR goverment, which YOU condone, decided to do something very crooked by creating another cash cow in the form of airport rent. NavCanada had no choice in the matter. They certainly cannot tell the government to give them money when it is the other way around.

You guys say NavCanada should not charge you for using their services (but it's ok to charge the airlines because they use the service) because you already pay taxes, of which NavCanada does not see one cent. It is bread and circuses idiocy. There Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. Those other taxes you pay go towards taking away your guns, buying Quebec planes for American airlines, paying for Kyoto, ad nauseum. Not towards air transportation infrastructure. What the hell do you want NavCanada to do? Tell the government "Hey, that $2 billion to register a few hunting rifles, we could really use that to make flying free for the whiners. Give it to us or else ... uh ... we'll do something."

charlie_g it is probably best not to get into arguments as incontinent as this. While it does not hurt your credibility to explain that government taxes do not go towards ANS, the "Everyone else should pay" free lunch crowd just can't understand. However taking a position defending pseudo goverment bureaucrats is misguided at best. Getting back onto topic here as stated, non-profit and goverment organizations like this naturally attract management that are losers at best, crooked politicos at worst. As exemplified by Kathy Fox. Great on paper, impotent in reality.

[Hedley]

free lunch crowd just can't understand

Perhaps you think I'm part of the "free lunch crowd", but for what it's worth, I strongly suspect I pay more in taxes each year, than you earn.

I don't expect to get something for free. In fact, I pay and pay and pay and pay endless amount of taxes for very marginal services provided.

Before NavCan was split off from the gov't, some of my tax dollars went to them.

I didn't see my taxes go down when NavCan was created. NavCan is like a stupid guy that lost his wallet. It's not my problem that he's out the money.

If NavCan really doesn't have enough revenue to support operation, because it negotiated a stupid deal with the gov't when it was created, their poor negotiation skills are not my problem. It's not my problem when some guy loses his wallet, either.

If NavCan is really a private corporation, it should do what any private corporation does when it runs out of money - tell everybody to go home, turn the lights off, and chain the doors.

Please, NavCan, do us all a favor, grow a spine and shut down. If you had the balls, you could stop all IFR movements and force the gov't to re-negotiate the deal with you, and get the fuel excise tax for revenue.

Canadians are such pussies, though - it will never happen.

[charlie_g]

YOUR goverment, which YOU condone, decided to do something very crooked by creating another cash cow in the form of airport rent. NavCanada had no choice in the matter. They certainly cannot tell the government to give them money when it is the other way around.

Ok, so I'm not the only one who shares this view. Your post is right on the money.

Hedley: you still make reference in your post to NC somehow being victimized by the government because they don't receive tax revenue. They are not spineless victims. They were given a mandate to fulfill, and the power to fund that mandate, period. As ahramin said, and as I have also said many times, it is not NC's problem if the gov't decided to wrap it's greedy arms around the cookie jar, this forcing another fee on the aviation community. NC serves the aviation community, but they are not responsible for the misuse of tax dollars.

Why would NC management, when given the means to collect ANS fees, instead refuse that, and say to the government: "We don't want to collect fees. We want you to give us tax revenue instead. We're leading a crusade on behalf of taxpayers everywhere!" How could that be NC's responsibility? NC is not an advocate for taxpayers, period. I don't know why anyone would confuse them as such?

As much as it may bother you, NC does not give a rat's ass about the fact that your tax dollars are being misspent or misdirected. Drop the assertion that somehow NC was somehow screwed over upon its creation. The government said here's your mandate, here's your ability to fund it, and goodbye.

If you want your significant tax dollars to be better spent, you're barking up the wrong tree by attacking NC. It is not NC's responsibility to hold the government to account for how it distributes tax revenue. It's yours.

[ahramin]

Hedley, paying taxes does not automatically exempt you from the bread and circuses crows. However i doubt that you are a free luncher.

NavCan is like a stupid guy that lost his wallet.

Not a bad definition. I certainly have not seen any improvement in service since NavCan was created. Nor have i seen my taxes go down. I do have a bill for $70 here, which i am happy to pay because i use their services quite frequently. I am not happy with paying gas taxes that go towards taking away guns and other crooked idiocy.

I did not follow the creation of NavCanada closely, though i understood what the government was up to. What could NavCanada have done to stop itself from being created? Or from having to pay airport rent? It seems to me that by the time the entity was created, the system was already in place. It will not go bankrupt because it can charge more. Canadians have a practically unlimited capability to pay taxes. I have never heard of anything bad happen to anyone who raised taxes.

[charlie_g]

What could NavCanada have done to stop itself from being created? Or from having to pay airport rent? It seems to me that by the time the entity was created, the system was already in place. It will not go bankrupt because it can charge more.

Your question - 'What could NC have done to stop itself from being created?'. Do you mean what could the aviation community have done in order to ensure that the government funded the new entity via taxes already in place?

[ahramin]

I am just looking for more info from Hedley because as i said i did not watch the changeover closely.

As for the aviaiton community, i am pretty sure we did everything we could to stop the change, with the usual results.

[zzjayca]

Before NavCan was split off from the gov't, some of my tax dollars went to them.

I didn't see my taxes go down when NavCan was created.

As has been said before. The government didn't reduce your taxes. This has nothing to do with Nav Canada.

If NavCan is really a private corporation, it should do what any private corporation does when it runs out of money - tell everybody to go home, turn the lights off, and chain the doors.

According to the ANS privatization act, Nav Canada funds the ANS through user fees. Nav Canada must set it's fees to break even. I don't necessarily agree with the set up since, when times are good, Nav Canada has no problem breaking even and the users are in a better position to pay. However, when a recession hits, Nav Canada must still break even. During these downturns, the users usually aren't in as good a position and yet, Nav Canada must set it's fees to a level allowing it to break even.

Again, if you feel the current set up for funding isn't appropriate, then you need to go to the government, not Nav Canada, to have the appropriate acts changed.

Please, NavCan, do us all a favor, grow a spine and shut down. If you had the balls, you could stop all IFR movements and force the gov't to re-negotiate the deal with you, and get the fuel excise tax for revenue.

Why? Again, if you don't agree with the government taxing you on fuel, make your complaint to the government, not Nav Canada.

[Cat Driver]

Bump::

" Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:56 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" I'm going to go pull my wire, "

First sensible thing you have posted here Charlie_G, let us know how it went.
_________________


How did it go???

[charlie_g]

Bump::

" Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:56 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" I'm going to go pull my wire, "

First sensible thing you have posted here Charlie_G, let us know how it went.
_________________


How did it go???

Pretty good!

[charlie_g]

If NavCan really doesn't have enough revenue to support operation, because it negotiated a stupid deal with the gov't when it was created, their poor negotiation skills are not my problem. It's not my problem when some guy loses his wallet, either.

Reading this again: when you say "doesn't have enough revenue to support operation", it sounds as though you think NC receives revenue (i.e. taxes) from the gov't in addition to the user fees it collects?

That is not the case of course, although reading it that way is about the only way that I can conceive of how some people out there are misled to think that there was some kind of "negotitation" with the government when the ANS was split off from Transport, and that today's user fees are somehow used to make up for the alleged poor negotitations? Otherwise I don't know why the concept of negotitation is even mentioned, because it is not applicable in this case.

[trey kule]

Charlie g....
why are you still here? You had promissed to do some wire pulling and be gone. Lied to again. I guess you really are from the government, er I mean, monopoly private, not for profit corporation who had its senior management conspire with our polictical masters to increase the tax base by, heh heh, keeping all the fuel taxes and then charging "user fees"

They need people like you charlie to preech the mantra and lie without conscience.

[charlie_g]

Charlie g....
why are you still here? You had promissed to do some wire pulling and be gone. Lied to again. I guess you really are from the government, er I mean, monopoly private, not for profit corporation who had its senior management conspire with our polictical masters to increase the tax base by, heh heh, keeping all the fuel taxes and then charging "user fees"

I never promised to be gone. Wire pulling yes. Gone, no. Your facts are skewed, as are your paranoid theories behind the creation and operation of NC.

[trey kule]

Charlie, I have seen the light. I would very much like to listen to your theories in person and have the opportunity to discuss them face to face.
Why dont you PM me you name and address and I will be sure to call when I am in you neck of the woods.

[charlie_g]

Charlie, I have seen the light. I would very much like to listen to your theories in person and have the opportunity to discuss them face to face.
Why dont you PM me you name and address and I will be sure to call when I am in you neck of the woods.

Thanks for the offer, but I suspect that your logic and counterpoints would be as inapplicable in person as they are online.

[Cat Driver]

trey kule:

Why don't you just put up a poll?

Agree with Charlie_G's position or agree with yours?

Cat

[charlie_g]

trey kule:

Why don't you just put up a poll?

Agree with Charlie_G's position or agree with yours?

Cat

What is his position? The only post of substance from him on this thread is that NC was created as part of a conspiracy to increase the tax base. That's a theory (wild-assed or not), although not really a position.

I've said many times before, I'm not any happier than you are about the government spending avgas tax dollars elsewhere. Or any other tax dollars collected under false pretenses, for that matter.

But it is not the responsibility of NC mgmt to right the government's (many) taxation wrongs.

[trey kule]

Cat:

Cant do the poll thing. First there is the problem with the paranoids jumping on the poll and skewing it, and then, .... and then.....if everyone agreed with Charlie g I would have no alternative but to immortalize my shame with a painful lingering self-inflicted death.

I am sure you can see my quandry.

[Cat Driver]

trey kule:

No matter which way you cut it Nav Canada is an arm of Government.

Before the Government employees became so prolific that our tax structure could not support their bloated offices we received "ALL" our services through the income tax and fuel surcharges.

Now every service we get has a "fee" read tax added, Nav Canada is just another smoke and mirror exercise to hide the inneficiency of a bloated government.

And I agree a poll here would prove nothing.

PS:

Some years ago I had the missfortune of dealing with one of Nav Canada's top management, a rethread from TC, and a crertifiable cretin...

Soon very soon I and the rest of my generation will be history and the Charlie_G's of todays smoke and mirror think will be free to beaver away with the new generation that know nothing else except that mentality..

Cat

[trey kule]

Cat I think you are quite right and it is really sad.

And while we are on the moroose, I happened to have a read of the latest version of the aeronautic act. Very very scary. TC has effectively hijacked parliament's ability to make law as there is clauses in there that allow TC to modify the act...And they are now able to deal with anyone who they detrmine to be incompetent etc.etc. It is very much the type of legislation that existed in Nazi German in the thirties.......and I know that my attitude will be noted. I understand the present head of TC is a lawyer....what does that tell you about their philosophy.


Keep at it. Maybe, just maybe, some of these younger ones will wake up before its to late.

[Cat Driver]

" And while we are on the moroose, I happened to have a read of the latest version of the aeronautic act. Very very scary. TC has effectively hijacked parliament's ability to make law as there is clauses in there that allow TC to modify the act...And they are now able to deal with anyone who they detrmine to be incompetent etc.etc. "

It's about time someone stands up to this unacountable gang of thugs that are taking their marching orders from Tower C.

The us against them mindset should never ever have started, but when the regulator becomes unacountable and driven by moral degenerates Canadian Aviation is in very deep trouble.

If they wish to flex their self serving sense of power I invite them to start with me.

If they can take me down they will at least have showed some backbone, but cowards will never work in the open.

Don't you think it would make for great entertainment seeing TC trying to discredit me by trying to remove my license based on their opinion of who should be allowed to fly..

...It ain't gonna happen trey kule because there are all those other government bodies who are still approving me to fly under their systems...but I would love to see a discussion between TCCA and CASA and the EUSA and S.A. C.A.A. defending their approving me under their systems ....to name a few.

Thanks for posting this, maybe the younguns will wake up.

Cat

[charlie_g]

And while we are on the moroose, I happened to have a read of the latest version of the aeronautic act. Very very scary. TC has effectively hijacked parliament's ability to make law as there is clauses in there that allow TC to modify the act...And they are now able to deal with anyone who they detrmine to be incompetent etc.etc. It is very much the type of legislation that existed in Nazi German in the thirties.......and I know that my attitude will be noted. I understand the present head of TC is a lawyer....what does that tell you about their philosophy.

Give me a fucking break -- you can't seriously be drawing parallels between TC's authority within the aeronautics act and Nazi Germany?? Time to take a few steps back there, chief.

To suggest that TC could somehow supercede parliament is also a dimwit's interpretation. Obviously parliament remains in control of the contents and execution of the act, since they were the ones who wrote it in the first place.

You and Cat would be well suited to take a long one-way flight together off into the sunset somewhere, where you could end your days discussing the alleged gigantic conspirist minds that are apparently running everything to do with aviation in this country. I'm sure you could solve all the problems for the rest of us with your brilliant insights.

In the meantime I'll just sit in my radar cubicle and marvel at the big evil machine I'm part of...

[trey kule]

The Nav Canada mentality.

The Boat Race

Westjet Airlines and Nav Canada decided to have a canoe race on the
St. Lawrence River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak
Performance before the race. On the big day, Westjet won by a mile.

Afterwards, the Nav Canada team became very depressed and discouraged. The
Nav Canada management decided that a reason for the crushing defeat had to be
found. A "Measurement Team" made up of senior management was formed. They
would investigate and recommend appropriate action.

They concluded that Westjet had eight people rowing and one person steering,
while Nav Canada had one person rowing and eight people steering. So NavCanada management hired a consulting company and paid them an incredible amount of
money. They advised that too many people were steering the boat and not enough
people were rowing.


To prevent losing to Westjet next year, the rowing team's management
structure was completely reorganized. There would be four steering supervisors, three
area steering superintendents and one assistant superintendent steering manager. Nav
Canada also implemented a new performance system that would give the one rower a greater
incentive to work harder.

The "Rowing Team Quality First Program" had meetings, dinners and included
free pens for the rower. "We will give the rower empowerment and
enrichments through this quality program," management said.

Next year, Westjet won by two miles.

Humiliated, Nav Canada management laid off the rower for poor performance,
Halted development of a new canoe, sold the paddles, and cancelled all capital
investments for the new equipment. Then they gave a "High Performance" award to the
steering management and distributed the money they realized as bonuses to the senior
executives