Just did a search & could not find what I wanted. I would like to know if I could carry 6-7 pax off 3000 feet of pavement with any range. Also how are they on gravel? I have a potential buyer that would like the best of both worlds. My first thought for them was PC-12 or B200 but would like to present the most options.
Thanks.
Piaggio
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Don't know much other than they are poor on gravel and need long strips...small gear...low belly...low props.
They are also 'super-fancy' in terms of interior features (wood, gold trim), etc...meaning that I'm sure an owner wouldn't want to run one in and out of gravel/dirt strips.
If your buyer has that kind of cash I'd recommend a new Raisebck-ed KA 200...or a new KA 350.
G
They are also 'super-fancy' in terms of interior features (wood, gold trim), etc...meaning that I'm sure an owner wouldn't want to run one in and out of gravel/dirt strips.
If your buyer has that kind of cash I'd recommend a new Raisebck-ed KA 200...or a new KA 350.
G
"Slow and steady wins the race"
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sprucemonkey
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- Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:31 pm
Sorry "G".Don't know much other than they are poor on gravel and need long strips...small gear...low belly...low props.
Is 2860 feet a long strip? 2.5 feet low props? Has a gravel kit option for the adventurous types. I've got around 2000 hrs on the P180 and we always hit the 3000 foot strips in AB with full pax and around 2.5 hrs fuel. (CED4 too)
The new planes are certified for 12,500 mgwt and 0.70M. If the budget is a PC12 or a 200, you need not look at a new P180. PM me if you want a bit more info.
Last edited by sprucemonkey on Fri Mar 24, 2006 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Greetings Tailhook,
With regards to loading:
Although the P180 has 7 seats in the back, it cannot take 7 adults and stay within the c of g. Maybe 7 adult midgets or small people as they are called these days
With regards to field length:
The P180 isn't the best short field performer. You would be hard pressed to one with any sort of load on it out of a 2800' strip. I would recommend 3500' minimum and much more if the runway is covered in snow. The reverse on that bird is so so and because the props are so far aft, they cause the tail to wag if too much reverse is used (not nice on snow)
With regards to gravel:
The POH strictly prohibits operation into gravel strips. I haven't heard of the aforementioned gravel kit, but if it is available, don't tell my boss.
I don't know what the others cost to purchase but a new Piaggio will run you 6 bills.
Regards,
N
With regards to loading:
Although the P180 has 7 seats in the back, it cannot take 7 adults and stay within the c of g. Maybe 7 adult midgets or small people as they are called these days
With regards to field length:
The P180 isn't the best short field performer. You would be hard pressed to one with any sort of load on it out of a 2800' strip. I would recommend 3500' minimum and much more if the runway is covered in snow. The reverse on that bird is so so and because the props are so far aft, they cause the tail to wag if too much reverse is used (not nice on snow)
With regards to gravel:
The POH strictly prohibits operation into gravel strips. I haven't heard of the aforementioned gravel kit, but if it is available, don't tell my boss.
I don't know what the others cost to purchase but a new Piaggio will run you 6 bills.
Regards,
N
According to the type certificate, the P180 is RVSM certified (MAX Alt 410). As far as I know the PC12 (30K Max alt anyway) and B200 aren't.
On the down side the P180 is limited to -30C (MIN) for takeoff whereas the PC12 and B200 aren't limited.
For the most part I've heard nuttin' but good about the P180. According to those in the know, its quite a well engineered piece of aeronautics but its more of a Lamborghini than a Fiat. And you don’t want to go off-roadin’ in a Lamborghini.
On the down side the P180 is limited to -30C (MIN) for takeoff whereas the PC12 and B200 aren't limited.
For the most part I've heard nuttin' but good about the P180. According to those in the know, its quite a well engineered piece of aeronautics but its more of a Lamborghini than a Fiat. And you don’t want to go off-roadin’ in a Lamborghini.
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sprucemonkey
- Rank 8
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....actually, its a well engineered piece of crap on the mtc side of things. I took a tour while down for the olympics and it was pretty cool but there is no support once it is kicked out the door.
you're not out of cofg if you "load" it correctly with 7 on board. lightest in the front.
don't forget with full fuel and 2 crew you're also out the back of cofg. count you're crew luggage....on the divan!
It is a great aircraft if they actually get it certified for what it can DO!
The minus thirty thingy. IF the itals were smart, they'd take it out of the limitations section. It has only been 'tested' to -30. Ive left YYC at 28 below and landed in YZF in 43 below and it was fine. IT is a pleasure to fly indeed but for an owners point of view it is a money sucking pig all-around.
Cheers.
you're not out of cofg if you "load" it correctly with 7 on board. lightest in the front.
don't forget with full fuel and 2 crew you're also out the back of cofg. count you're crew luggage....on the divan!
It is a great aircraft if they actually get it certified for what it can DO!
The minus thirty thingy. IF the itals were smart, they'd take it out of the limitations section. It has only been 'tested' to -30. Ive left YYC at 28 below and landed in YZF in 43 below and it was fine. IT is a pleasure to fly indeed but for an owners point of view it is a money sucking pig all-around.
Cheers.
Last edited by sprucemonkey on Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hey Spruce,
To be fair, from a service point of view, you have to consider the fact that the P180 is small in numbers with only 15-20 coming off the line per year. To date, their numbers are low in North America although this is slowly changing with companies such as Avantair. North American service centers are starting to appear and a flight safety program will be available shortly in West Palm. I suggest you read this dated article from AIN before you give people the wrong impression regarding service problems:
http://www.ainonline.com/Features/Pilot ... ti701.html
Particularly comments such as: “There were times when it was a little hard to get parts, but the people in Italy always stuck by the airplane. There has never been a time when I could not get someone to talk to about a problem.”
As for the W/B issue. I think you will find that if you use standard weights (which aren't required but are often accurate in my neck of the woods) you will find it is out of balance in the front, at least with our machine. On a similar note, our machine is within limits with full fuel and crew bags in the back, perhaps each machine is a tad different.
Finally, with regards to the temp limits, I respect what is in the POH. If it says Min Take-off temp is -30 C, so be it. If it says Min Outside Air Temp of -40 at Sea Level then I will respect that. Is the max TO weight also a discretionary item, i am certain the plane will become airborne at 11650. Do you bump the torques up an extra 50 ftlbs just to get to destination a bit quicker?
Limits are given for a reason, I will continue to fly by the numbers.
Regards,
Neo
To be fair, from a service point of view, you have to consider the fact that the P180 is small in numbers with only 15-20 coming off the line per year. To date, their numbers are low in North America although this is slowly changing with companies such as Avantair. North American service centers are starting to appear and a flight safety program will be available shortly in West Palm. I suggest you read this dated article from AIN before you give people the wrong impression regarding service problems:
http://www.ainonline.com/Features/Pilot ... ti701.html
Particularly comments such as: “There were times when it was a little hard to get parts, but the people in Italy always stuck by the airplane. There has never been a time when I could not get someone to talk to about a problem.”
As for the W/B issue. I think you will find that if you use standard weights (which aren't required but are often accurate in my neck of the woods) you will find it is out of balance in the front, at least with our machine. On a similar note, our machine is within limits with full fuel and crew bags in the back, perhaps each machine is a tad different.
Finally, with regards to the temp limits, I respect what is in the POH. If it says Min Take-off temp is -30 C, so be it. If it says Min Outside Air Temp of -40 at Sea Level then I will respect that. Is the max TO weight also a discretionary item, i am certain the plane will become airborne at 11650. Do you bump the torques up an extra 50 ftlbs just to get to destination a bit quicker?
Limits are given for a reason, I will continue to fly by the numbers.
Regards,
Neo
Yes, you wouldn't want to take this off pavement:you don’t want to go off-roadin’ in a Lamborghini.
http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/Jive ... 202000.jpg
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/factsheets/fact_air_e.htm
Good enough for the RCMP boss.
Good enough for the RCMP boss.
CID,
You are correct the Min OAT for TO is -30; however, the minimum outside operating temp is-40C. This allows you to takeoff at -30 but land at -40. That said, you may have to wait till high noon for the temp to rise again for your next departure.
Perhaps, I am misinterpreting things, it wouldn't be the first time.
Regards,
N
You are correct the Min OAT for TO is -30; however, the minimum outside operating temp is-40C. This allows you to takeoff at -30 but land at -40. That said, you may have to wait till high noon for the temp to rise again for your next departure.
Perhaps, I am misinterpreting things, it wouldn't be the first time.
Regards,
N
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PC12's are better
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Not quite good enough
The P180's are fine machines but in responce to the comment as per bandaid
Good enough for the RCMP boss isn't quite correct
The P180 was purchased for a 2 fold mission for the RCMP. Both as an executive transport for the top end as well as a quick response unit for their ERT division (emergency response Team) AKA SWAT.
it has succeeded nicely in column A but FAILED it's mission in column B.
case study
ERT team consists of 6 members + 2 pilots and about 100 lbs of gear for each ERT member. this reasults in a C of G way out of the limits.
When the 180 arrived it wasn't within the limits that the RCMP required as a usefull load.
Solution. send along a PC12 as a cargo plane.
P180 cruise speed 350-375 kts
PC12 cruise speed 265 kts
ERT Members will arrive but without their gear.
Note: a swat team without any combat gear is only 1 thing. target practice
Next solution in my opinion send a single B1900D in a 1 AC run for ERT and also keep a hawker or lear for the execs.
Good enough for the RCMP boss isn't quite correct
The P180 was purchased for a 2 fold mission for the RCMP. Both as an executive transport for the top end as well as a quick response unit for their ERT division (emergency response Team) AKA SWAT.
it has succeeded nicely in column A but FAILED it's mission in column B.
case study
ERT team consists of 6 members + 2 pilots and about 100 lbs of gear for each ERT member. this reasults in a C of G way out of the limits.
When the 180 arrived it wasn't within the limits that the RCMP required as a usefull load.
Solution. send along a PC12 as a cargo plane.
P180 cruise speed 350-375 kts
PC12 cruise speed 265 kts
ERT Members will arrive but without their gear.
Note: a swat team without any combat gear is only 1 thing. target practice
Next solution in my opinion send a single B1900D in a 1 AC run for ERT and also keep a hawker or lear for the execs.
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oldncold
- Rank (9)
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- Location: south of 78N latitude , north of 30'latitude
piaggio or pilatus
hm im biased go with the 12 the new 2006 models have an upgross to 10400 so more stuff can be put inside and say the boss wants to go fishing
well the 12 WILL get out of a 2000 ft gravel strips then fly to chicago for example . lots of gas 2700 pnds sipping 340 a hour at 27000ft
do the math- 600+ pc 12's and production increasing to 90- planes next year.
lots of range/ payload- big door -lots of toys to keep the pilots happy/
low fuel bills /good support/ no balanced field requirements.
oh check out the jan 2006 issue of aopa pc 12 cover and full review.
no I don't sell them but 2500 hrs in them made a believer out of me
nothing like watching a sunrise as ya break out thru the cloud deck
sipping coffee doing the paper work. all the bells and whistles working in
harmony. ps ask any refueler what they would rather do first on a -40 morning a pc 12 or anything else - no brainer the 12 and why simple two
tanks 1 on each wing -this makes for quick turns- and that will impress the big boss man.
well the 12 WILL get out of a 2000 ft gravel strips then fly to chicago for example . lots of gas 2700 pnds sipping 340 a hour at 27000ft
do the math- 600+ pc 12's and production increasing to 90- planes next year.
lots of range/ payload- big door -lots of toys to keep the pilots happy/
low fuel bills /good support/ no balanced field requirements.
oh check out the jan 2006 issue of aopa pc 12 cover and full review.
no I don't sell them but 2500 hrs in them made a believer out of me
nothing like watching a sunrise as ya break out thru the cloud deck
sipping coffee doing the paper work. all the bells and whistles working in
harmony. ps ask any refueler what they would rather do first on a -40 morning a pc 12 or anything else - no brainer the 12 and why simple two
tanks 1 on each wing -this makes for quick turns- and that will impress the big boss man.
You're only a single point failure away from being forced to break though the cloud deck on the opposite end however. For me the single engine solution wouldn't enter in to it. Especially as a fare paying passenger.nothing like watching a sunrise as ya break out thru the cloud deck
ps ask any refueler what they would rather do first on a -40 morning a pc 12 or anything else - no brainer the 12 and why simple two
tanks 1 on each wing -this makes for quick turns- and that will impress the big boss man.
Actually, speaking as a refueller, the PC-12 is nice but the piaggio is also pretty good. Single-point beats overwing any day, the only reason the PC-12 is competitive is that the piaggio's single-point is hard to get at and there are relatively few piaggio's flying, so half the rampies have to look up how to fuel them in the book or ask the crew. So I'd say that the PC-12 and Piaggo tie in that respect.
PS, They both leave the King Air in the dust for ease-of-fueling...
I've never taken a taxi where the driver blind folded himself while driving on the freeway. That's pretty much the scenario I'm talking about when a single engine airplane has a shut down in IFR. Sorry, too much risk for me.CID respect the opinion but you can just as easily arrive early in the next world taking a taxi from pearson to downtown these days as "farepaying passenger"
Overall, it certainly is riskier to take a cab than it is to fly an airliner. However, the stats don't support Air Taxi ops and there's a reason. The level of safety is lower for Air Taxi. Even lower than the cab scenario if you consider the flight time rather than the distance. So why it even more riskier by leaving the second engine at home?
Every single jet fuel burning aircraft should have single point! Anyone agree? No more overwing nozzles, therefore no chance in hell of fueling an avgas a/c with jet fuel. An besides, it's way more fun for the rampie.Lommer wrote:Actually, speaking as a refueller, the PC-12 is nice but the piaggio is also pretty good. Single-point beats overwing any day
The 180 is a bitch though because it doesn't suck the fuel from the truck fast at all. It's a slow fill. PC-12 is wide open. King Air just blows. They didn't think about the ramp guy when they designed that one. (Not that they should) But I prefer fueling the 180 because it's easier.
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sprucemonkey
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