Can any experienced fire bomber drivers offer advice on a career path to get to a fire bombing job?
What types of experience are most valuable?
(If there's already a thread on this, just point me... I can't seem to find one)
Thanks...
Fire Bomber career path...
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DiverDriver
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Driving Rain
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What do you want to fly? Fire work is broken down into about 5 different types.
1.) Land based large 4 and 2 engine types like the Lockheed Electra and the Convair 580's. plus the Grumman S2T Trackers. They drop anwhere from 800 to 2500 gallon IMP of long term fire retardant. (the red stuff) and soon (the blue stuff)
2) smaller SEAT's (single engine air tankers) like the Dromaders and the AirTractors. Some of the AirTractors get put on big amphib Wiplines floats. This group drops anywhere from 400 to 800 gallon IMP of long term.
3) Waterbombers including CL-215/415, Twin Otters and the afore mentioned AirTractor called the Fire Boss on floats. This group drops anywhere from 400 to 1500 gallons IMP of foam and water.
4) Helicopters are used in all aspects from bucketing and bombing to initial attack (carrying fire crews and equipment ) There are so many types I can't keep track but all shapes and sizes are used in all aspects of the business.
5) Bird Doging or Lead plane. Small light twins like Turbo Commanders and Ted Smith Aerostars. They provide ATC and attack strategy for the bombers and Helo's as well as central communications.
Some operations are private sector companies and some are Government. If you hate government stay far away from this line of work. Both private sector companies and government operations are rigidly controlled by provincal government bureaucracy as well as TC.
Do a google search or better yet go to the polls category here and see how many operations there are in Canada under 702 CARS and then seek the addresses find out their min. qualification and start applying.
Ontario requires 1000 hours on seaplanes and an ATPL. I would guess most of the other provinces require about the same. That could get you into a co-pilot seat on a CL-415. Expect to stay there for many years before the chance comes to get a left seat.
The land based tankers are mostly run by two companies in Canada, ConAir in Abbotsford BC and AirSpray in Red Deer AB.
ConAir operates Fire Bosses and AirTractors as well. The rest of the SEATS are run in Manitoba and New Broomstick.
Hicks and Lawrence provides Ontario with both detection and Bird
Dog aircraft and pilots. They're located in Dryden Ontario.
I didn't mention FIFT and the mighty Martin Mars. Unless you have a couple of Space Shuttle landings under your belt forget it, as there are only two of them left.
Good Luck.
DR
1.) Land based large 4 and 2 engine types like the Lockheed Electra and the Convair 580's. plus the Grumman S2T Trackers. They drop anwhere from 800 to 2500 gallon IMP of long term fire retardant. (the red stuff) and soon (the blue stuff)
2) smaller SEAT's (single engine air tankers) like the Dromaders and the AirTractors. Some of the AirTractors get put on big amphib Wiplines floats. This group drops anywhere from 400 to 800 gallon IMP of long term.
3) Waterbombers including CL-215/415, Twin Otters and the afore mentioned AirTractor called the Fire Boss on floats. This group drops anywhere from 400 to 1500 gallons IMP of foam and water.
4) Helicopters are used in all aspects from bucketing and bombing to initial attack (carrying fire crews and equipment ) There are so many types I can't keep track but all shapes and sizes are used in all aspects of the business.
5) Bird Doging or Lead plane. Small light twins like Turbo Commanders and Ted Smith Aerostars. They provide ATC and attack strategy for the bombers and Helo's as well as central communications.
Some operations are private sector companies and some are Government. If you hate government stay far away from this line of work. Both private sector companies and government operations are rigidly controlled by provincal government bureaucracy as well as TC.
Do a google search or better yet go to the polls category here and see how many operations there are in Canada under 702 CARS and then seek the addresses find out their min. qualification and start applying.
Ontario requires 1000 hours on seaplanes and an ATPL. I would guess most of the other provinces require about the same. That could get you into a co-pilot seat on a CL-415. Expect to stay there for many years before the chance comes to get a left seat.
The land based tankers are mostly run by two companies in Canada, ConAir in Abbotsford BC and AirSpray in Red Deer AB.
ConAir operates Fire Bosses and AirTractors as well. The rest of the SEATS are run in Manitoba and New Broomstick.
Hicks and Lawrence provides Ontario with both detection and Bird
Dog aircraft and pilots. They're located in Dryden Ontario.
I didn't mention FIFT and the mighty Martin Mars. Unless you have a couple of Space Shuttle landings under your belt forget it, as there are only two of them left.
Good Luck.
DR
But, you see, now that the Concorde is no more, the Mars is where I have to set my sights as the new King of Flying Machines!! How great would that be- flying a piece of living history in a real operational capacity. Sends shivers!!
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
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Driving Rain
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Everytime that thing takes off it sets new worlds records.Airtids wrote:But, you see, now that the Concorde is no more, the Mars is where I have to set my sights as the new King of Flying Machines!! How great would that be- flying a piece of living history in a real operational capacity. Sends shivers!!
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DiverDriver
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Driving Rain
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DiverDriver wrote:Thanks, DR, for all the info.
I guess, then, with the high float time requirement that most fire bombing pilots start out in the bush?
What about bird dog pilots? Is that considered an entry level position to fire bombing?
Well yes and no. In Ontario a Bird Dog position will not get you into a bomber unless you have the float time being as they are two different companies. It's never happened here as far as I know. At AirSpray and ConAir it has happened. Some of their guys are ex- military fighter pilots and some are bush. A good shwack of bush time is the best bet though regardless.
Hicks & Lawrence moves their Dog pilots up from it's detection pilot ranks. How it's done at ConAir and AirSpray I'm not sure but I believe they can progress into right seats and then left seats if they choose. Bird Dog Pilots are paid better than co-pilots at those firms so it's a case of one step up and two steps back to make that transition to bombers.
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Cat Driver
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Yeh CL Guy, I agree.
Only years of doing will make for a good water bomber pilot.
And some just never do learn, and become consultants.
Cat
Only years of doing will make for a good water bomber pilot.
And some just never do learn, and become consultants.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Driving Rain
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I don't know if that's true or not. The problem with taking a low time float pilot and putting him in the right seat of a 215 is not when everything is going good, it's when the plane breaks down on the water.bd wrote:How about Buffalo fellas? I heard they'd take rampies and put them right seat on a DC3 then a bomber. Any truth to that?
Imagine a rudderless 215 on one engine on the water in a remote lake on a windy day. That low time float pilot after serving many years in the right seat has been promoted to captain and is suddenly faced with the above situation. In all their years of sitting right seat this situation hasn't cropped up. In all my years on tankers that situation has never been discussed or trained for. Now get that plane to a safe anchorage where the engineers can service it without wreaking the darn thing. The gap in the above pilots experience isn't going to do them much good.
It happened to me and a couple of other guys I know of. My time and experience saved the day for me and my employer. My co-pilot that day was also a very experienced pilot with lots of multi engine float time. Between the two of us and a buddy above us flying and checking to make sure my route was shoal and rock free we got the thing to a safe place to picket until help arrived.
I know a 415 pilot who had an engine failure while scooping on the Baltic off Sweden. They had to be towed to land. Sounds simple enough if you know how to do it. Believe me not many know how to do it.
A 215 will drag an anchor as fast as most boats can sail, so just throwing out the anchor isn't going to do you much good.
Rudy, most operations start you out in a Birddog aircraft and you work up from there. It could be an A-Star or Commander 690. They seem to be the most popular type for birddogging the land based tankers.
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
Lets keep our fingers crossed for a good season!
Flying Tankers earn award
Shayne Morrow, AV Times
Published: Tuesday, January 31, 2006
Article tools
The operators of the Martin Mars water bombers have been recognized for their four and a half decades of service in the B.C. forest industry.
Last week, Flying Tankers Inc. received the Crystal Award for 2005, at the Vancouver Island Business Excellence Awards, in the category of Lifetime Achievement.
"It's a little different for us, because we're not a retail operation," Flying Tankers manager Terry Dixon said Friday. Dixon attended the event on Thursday evening, with TimberWest project manager John Phillips.
TimberWest has been the sole corporate sponsor of the Flying Tankers program since the early part of the century. Weyerhaeuser pulled out of the consortium after several relatively slow fire seasons, and the Sproat Lake-based operation has aggressively marketed its firefighting and maintenance services since then.
The giant flying boats re-gained their high profile during the wildfire seasons of 2003 and 2004, but, despite the earliest start ever, last summer's fire season was very slow, Dixon noted.
"The guys did a lot of maintenance over the summer, so we stayed well ahead of the curve in that area," Dixon said. "We'll be putting the first plane in the water in mid-April."
Dixon said there hasn't been a long-term forecast for the 2006 fire season, although the warm temperatures will undoubtedly result in a low snow-pack. That could result in dry ground conditions and another busy fire season.
"But who knows what it's going to mean? If you get a whole bunch of rain in June, it changes everything," he said. While climatologists grapple over the long-term effects of global warming, Dixon said he's more concerned with another climate issue.
"Global wetting," he quipped
© Alberni Valley Times 2006
Flying Tankers earn award
Shayne Morrow, AV Times
Published: Tuesday, January 31, 2006
Article tools
The operators of the Martin Mars water bombers have been recognized for their four and a half decades of service in the B.C. forest industry.
Last week, Flying Tankers Inc. received the Crystal Award for 2005, at the Vancouver Island Business Excellence Awards, in the category of Lifetime Achievement.
"It's a little different for us, because we're not a retail operation," Flying Tankers manager Terry Dixon said Friday. Dixon attended the event on Thursday evening, with TimberWest project manager John Phillips.
TimberWest has been the sole corporate sponsor of the Flying Tankers program since the early part of the century. Weyerhaeuser pulled out of the consortium after several relatively slow fire seasons, and the Sproat Lake-based operation has aggressively marketed its firefighting and maintenance services since then.
The giant flying boats re-gained their high profile during the wildfire seasons of 2003 and 2004, but, despite the earliest start ever, last summer's fire season was very slow, Dixon noted.
"The guys did a lot of maintenance over the summer, so we stayed well ahead of the curve in that area," Dixon said. "We'll be putting the first plane in the water in mid-April."
Dixon said there hasn't been a long-term forecast for the 2006 fire season, although the warm temperatures will undoubtedly result in a low snow-pack. That could result in dry ground conditions and another busy fire season.
"But who knows what it's going to mean? If you get a whole bunch of rain in June, it changes everything," he said. While climatologists grapple over the long-term effects of global warming, Dixon said he's more concerned with another climate issue.
"Global wetting," he quipped
© Alberni Valley Times 2006
Thanks CLguy, Could you tell me what a birddog pilot's job entails? I'm specifically interested in companies like Conair that operate the big land based aircraft. What's a typical day like? What kind of experience are they looking for? Any Conair/Airspray/Flying Tankers read this board?
Amen to that!! You can never count your chickens in the protection business.arsenal wrote: "But who knows what it's going to mean? If you get a whole bunch of rain in June, it changes everything," he said. While climatologists grapple over the long-term effects of global warming, Dixon said he's more concerned with another climate issue.
"Global wetting," he quipped
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
Rudy, the birddog pilot not only flies the aircraft which also has a Air Attack Leader on board, but he is also responsible for airspace management around the fire. Basically he is the air traffic controller over the fire and he makes sure everyone is stacked at an appropriate altitudes etc. to avoid any conflicts. No one comes, goes or makes a move without approval from the birddog.
For large land based tankers he is also responsible for doing the dummy runs to ensure there are no hazards that will cause problems for the larger birds during the run, drop and exit. When doing this he determines the drop altitude, any rising terrain, obstacles such as towers etc. and passes it along to the tanker pilots. This is usually done before the tanker arrives so he isn't held up circling and wasting valuable time waiting the for birddog to get his act together. Once the tanker is overhead, you will sometimes do what we call a show me run. This is a run to show the tanker pilot, the direction of the run, the target area and direction for exit. This is only done if the tanker pilot can't understand what exactly the Air Attack Leader is looking for. These runs are usually done at around a 100 feet. You will also be required to lead the Tanker in which means picking him up, usually on a downwind or base leg, by tucking yourself in just in front of him at his airspreed and leading him in through the drop and exit. This is where go communications come in as you can appreciate. Basically you have a large, heavily loaded, up to 4 engine Tanker just off your tail following you at a couple of hundred feet over the trees. This takes a fair bit of practice to get used to and be able to understand how much room he needs to manoeuvre.
For scooper operations everything is pretty much the same except we very seldom do lead ins. We get a circuit set up and basically the birddog circles overhead and keep everyone out of our way.
Things can get very busy over a fire especially when you have helicopters circling overhead with the fire bosses, media etc. watching what is happening, helicopters coming and going from the fire dropping off crews and equipment, 6 or more sccopers working off a lake real close to the fire and large Air Tankers coming and going dropping retardent. The busiest I have ever seen was in Alberta. We had 11 scoopers working the fire, numerous helicopters working around the fire, an Electra and Air Tractor 802's hauling retardent from about 40 miles away. The boys earned their money that day.
As far as a typical day goes in aerial firefighting, is usually you are so bored you can't stand it or you are so busy you can't stand it. There never seems to be a happy medium. You do get to work with some great people though!
I would suggest calling the companies and find out what they are looking for because I don't know what their requirements are. As far as I know Conair, Airspray and Saskatchewan Gov't are the only companies that operate both Tankers and Birddogs. All other operations, the Birddogs are contracted by different companies.
Hope this helps!
For large land based tankers he is also responsible for doing the dummy runs to ensure there are no hazards that will cause problems for the larger birds during the run, drop and exit. When doing this he determines the drop altitude, any rising terrain, obstacles such as towers etc. and passes it along to the tanker pilots. This is usually done before the tanker arrives so he isn't held up circling and wasting valuable time waiting the for birddog to get his act together. Once the tanker is overhead, you will sometimes do what we call a show me run. This is a run to show the tanker pilot, the direction of the run, the target area and direction for exit. This is only done if the tanker pilot can't understand what exactly the Air Attack Leader is looking for. These runs are usually done at around a 100 feet. You will also be required to lead the Tanker in which means picking him up, usually on a downwind or base leg, by tucking yourself in just in front of him at his airspreed and leading him in through the drop and exit. This is where go communications come in as you can appreciate. Basically you have a large, heavily loaded, up to 4 engine Tanker just off your tail following you at a couple of hundred feet over the trees. This takes a fair bit of practice to get used to and be able to understand how much room he needs to manoeuvre.
For scooper operations everything is pretty much the same except we very seldom do lead ins. We get a circuit set up and basically the birddog circles overhead and keep everyone out of our way.
Things can get very busy over a fire especially when you have helicopters circling overhead with the fire bosses, media etc. watching what is happening, helicopters coming and going from the fire dropping off crews and equipment, 6 or more sccopers working off a lake real close to the fire and large Air Tankers coming and going dropping retardent. The busiest I have ever seen was in Alberta. We had 11 scoopers working the fire, numerous helicopters working around the fire, an Electra and Air Tractor 802's hauling retardent from about 40 miles away. The boys earned their money that day.
As far as a typical day goes in aerial firefighting, is usually you are so bored you can't stand it or you are so busy you can't stand it. There never seems to be a happy medium. You do get to work with some great people though!
I would suggest calling the companies and find out what they are looking for because I don't know what their requirements are. As far as I know Conair, Airspray and Saskatchewan Gov't are the only companies that operate both Tankers and Birddogs. All other operations, the Birddogs are contracted by different companies.
Hope this helps!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
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Driving Rain
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Good post CL Guy The only thing I'd add to that is around every fire there is a 5 mile PCZ from the ground to 3500' the the Dog Pilot is responsible for. A lot of the control workload is shared by the Air Attack Officer or ATGS. They never put new dog pilots with a new ATGS.
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Driving Rain
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Which tankers the twin otters or the CL-415?Glory. wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many pilots are in those tankers? I remember being told that there is only one so that the weight is kept down or something..is this true?
Single pilot DHC 6 and it has nothing to do with weight. Fire Bombing is conducted VFR so the DHC6 can be flown single pilot.
The CL-415 with an all up gross wt. of 47,000 lbs is a 2 pilot operation. Bomb load is 13,500 lb and max ramp wt utility is 41,150 so I doubt if they are trying to keep the weight down.
The things built like a brick shit house. 
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Probes Down
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Dog... I was in your position myself a few years ago, lots of time, lots of float time but no ATPL. Finally getting it finished opened up a lot of doors, in the bomber business and elsewhere. So if you can, get the time for the licence, it's well worth it. As for the pay, check in the Salary forum, I think it has been detailed already.
