Just landed a job flying jumpers at the local DZ.
The club has a 1963 C182 with the 260HP upgrade.
Questions:
Q1. I am transitioning from a C172 and found the C182 to be a bit nose heavy on landing. After doing some research today, I have found that the most common cause of C182 damage comes from nose first landings. I do not want to be the guy who damages the firewall!!! Any tips, tricks or advice on how to land this bird, mains first, would be greatly appreciated.
Just a note - To make the C of G even more forward, all seats have been removed, with the exception of the pilot seat of course, to facilitate the jump operation.
Q2. If anyone has the correct Vspeeds for a 1963 C182 in MPH, they too would be appreciated.
Q3. I have been a skydiver for over 10 years, however this is my first job flying. I would love to hear from other jump pilots on what to expect, watch out for etc. I would like to learn from others and their experiences/mistakes in an attempt to lessen my own.
Best Regards,
Crispy3M
Skydive Ops and Landing Tips for a C182
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
Re: Skydive Ops and Landing Tips for a C182
Keep the nose off the ground and gently lower it just before the aircraft stops flying. Sounds dumb but I am amazed on how many pilots just want to get on the ground. Just a feel that comes with time on the airplane. Fly the airplane...don't let it fly you.Crispy3M wrote: Q1. I am transitioning from a C172 and found the C182 to be a bit nose heavy on landing. After doing some research today, I have found that the most common cause of C182 damage comes from nose first landings. I do not want to be the guy who damages the firewall!!! Any tips, tricks or advice on how to land this bird, mains first, would be greatly appreciated.Crispy3M
Airspeeds are colour coded...no one remembers the exact numbers after their flight test.Crispy3M wrote: Q2. If anyone has the correct Vspeeds for a 1963 C182 in MPH, they too would be appreciated.
Crispy3M
1. Well now you're one of us. Don't smoke weed.Crispy3M wrote: Q3. I have been a skydiver for over 10 years, however this is my first job flying. I would love to hear from other jump pilots on what to expect, watch out for etc. I would like to learn from others and their experiences/mistakes in an attempt to lessen my own.
Crispy3M
Seriously...most engines failures come on the first power reduction. Don't pull any handles until you are turning back toward the airport...if uncontrolled. In a controlled zone....not until you can make a selected field do you set climb power. (Know your 'Max Continuous power' time limit)
2. Tightly adjust your seat belt before you reach over to close the door.
3. Don't let the 'meat bombs' rush you to fly until you are assured you have the sufficient fuel & oil to do the trip up..and all the way down. I have seen guy's blast off and 4 minutes later...'quietly' return because they were new to the skydive 'environment'.
4. Don't let them push the weather. No means no. Those meat bomb aircraft have no reliable nav aids...or attitude indicators.
5. Before they jump...have a glance at their pilot shoot is not hanging out. That would make for a bad day for you.
Also glance @ their equipment before they board.
6. Don't bust any jugs in the descent!!!!!!!!!
7. Don't bust any jugs in the descent!!!!!!!!!
and finally;
8. Don't bust any jugs in the descent!!!!!!!!!
Have fun!
Thank you
BirdDog,
Thanks for the reply and the welcome. It's been a long road, but I am very hopeful that this is a big first step. 90% of all the DiverDrivers we have had at the DZ over the past 10 years have made it to the commercial world.
Funny you mention the power change / Engine Failure thing. I have never heard of this in the very short time I have been flying but have heard it twice now in the past two weeks. It's good advice and I will adhere to it!
I will also do my best to keep the engine from shock cooling. I've been a jumper long enough to know that I would rather wait 0.1 for the plane to get back than have to get out below 1000 agl LOL!
Crispy3M
Thanks for the reply and the welcome. It's been a long road, but I am very hopeful that this is a big first step. 90% of all the DiverDrivers we have had at the DZ over the past 10 years have made it to the commercial world.
Funny you mention the power change / Engine Failure thing. I have never heard of this in the very short time I have been flying but have heard it twice now in the past two weeks. It's good advice and I will adhere to it!
I will also do my best to keep the engine from shock cooling. I've been a jumper long enough to know that I would rather wait 0.1 for the plane to get back than have to get out below 1000 agl LOL!
Crispy3M
My bits of advice are;
1 - make it instinct to slam on the right rudder if anything goes wrong once the jumpers are out the door. Get the tail as far away from them as you can.
2 - don't rely on your ASI once the door is open, use the horizon as a reference. The jumpers interfere with the RH static port.
3 - don't let yourself get too slow on jump run. remember that you are usually at max gross, at the service ceiling of the aircraft with a moving load and flying cross controlled once the four to five jumpers get out onto the strut.
4 - Leaning the mixture and carb heat use are a different ball game at 12000'. they can both get you into a lot of trouble if not done properly
5 - fly the C-182 a little heavy handed in the descent, the elevator trim has been known to run-away at higher speeds in the older 182s. It really sucks when your teeth go through the dash.
6 - I've had many jumpers accidentally shut the fuel off on me. Keep an eye on the fuel selector
7 - and like someone else mentionned, don't ever let the jumpers pressure you into anything you are not comfortable with.
1 - make it instinct to slam on the right rudder if anything goes wrong once the jumpers are out the door. Get the tail as far away from them as you can.
2 - don't rely on your ASI once the door is open, use the horizon as a reference. The jumpers interfere with the RH static port.
3 - don't let yourself get too slow on jump run. remember that you are usually at max gross, at the service ceiling of the aircraft with a moving load and flying cross controlled once the four to five jumpers get out onto the strut.
4 - Leaning the mixture and carb heat use are a different ball game at 12000'. they can both get you into a lot of trouble if not done properly
5 - fly the C-182 a little heavy handed in the descent, the elevator trim has been known to run-away at higher speeds in the older 182s. It really sucks when your teeth go through the dash.
6 - I've had many jumpers accidentally shut the fuel off on me. Keep an eye on the fuel selector
7 - and like someone else mentionned, don't ever let the jumpers pressure you into anything you are not comfortable with.
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Cat Driver
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Where do you get the idea that " Most power failures come on the first power reduction? "
In fifty two years of flying I have never had a failure on the first power reduction, nor has anyone ever shown me that this is a fact.
But I can guarantee you that if you do not do a power reduction as soon as practical after lift off ( positive rate of climb and gear on the way up. ) in airplanes with big radials you will have engine failures due to improper power handling.........
To assume that the first power reduction is your most dangerous action in piston engines is a very flawed theory.
Just my obversavations and experiences after many tens of thousands of hours doing power reductions on piston pounders.
Cat
In fifty two years of flying I have never had a failure on the first power reduction, nor has anyone ever shown me that this is a fact.
But I can guarantee you that if you do not do a power reduction as soon as practical after lift off ( positive rate of climb and gear on the way up. ) in airplanes with big radials you will have engine failures due to improper power handling.........
To assume that the first power reduction is your most dangerous action in piston engines is a very flawed theory.
Just my obversavations and experiences after many tens of thousands of hours doing power reductions on piston pounders.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Not that I strive to have engine failures like they were trophies or somthing, however 2 of my 3 full blow engine failures happened on the first power reduction. I guess I must suck.Cat Driver wrote:Where do you get the idea that " Most power failures come on the first power reduction? "
In fifty two years of flying I have never had a failure on the first power reduction, nor has anyone ever shown me that this is a fact.
To assume that the first power reduction is your most dangerous action in piston engines is a very flawed theory.
Just my obversavations and experiences after many tens of thousands of hours doing power reductions on piston pounders.
Cat
Maybe just a dumb guess or actually told to me prior to my own engine failures by a few 'seasoned' pilots that the high probalility that engine failures may occur is at the first power reduction. Maybe I misunderstood them.
Just my obversavations and experiences after a 'few' thousand hours doing power reductions on piston pounders.
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Cat Driver
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We need to take all of these ideas or assumptions with a grain of salt.
Lets look at it from an operational standpoint and use waterscoopers as our example of wether or not the first power reduction is more likely to cause a failure of the engine, the waterscoopers perform more take offs per hour of flying than any other airplane that I can think of.
I flew fifteen years waterbombing for two different companies and to the best of my knowledge we did not have a failure at the first power reduction in all the many engine failures these airplanes had.
If the idea that the first power reduction is the most likely time for a failure, why did this not hold true for the waterbombers as you "must" reduce power as soon as possible due to the long full power timeframe needed to fill the tanks while scooping. Remember these machines will be at take off power every six minutes or so when doing pickups.
I would rather believe that smooth easy power changes will be your best insurance against engine failures at any time.
For what ever it is worth I always handle the thottles until climb power has been set, that way I assure that smooth and slow power changes will give me the best chance of the engines running to TBO.
Cat.
Lets look at it from an operational standpoint and use waterscoopers as our example of wether or not the first power reduction is more likely to cause a failure of the engine, the waterscoopers perform more take offs per hour of flying than any other airplane that I can think of.
I flew fifteen years waterbombing for two different companies and to the best of my knowledge we did not have a failure at the first power reduction in all the many engine failures these airplanes had.
If the idea that the first power reduction is the most likely time for a failure, why did this not hold true for the waterbombers as you "must" reduce power as soon as possible due to the long full power timeframe needed to fill the tanks while scooping. Remember these machines will be at take off power every six minutes or so when doing pickups.
I would rather believe that smooth easy power changes will be your best insurance against engine failures at any time.
For what ever it is worth I always handle the thottles until climb power has been set, that way I assure that smooth and slow power changes will give me the best chance of the engines running to TBO.
Cat.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Driving Rain
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- Contact:
My only two engine failures both on R2800's happened after powering up. One after a drop and the other after starting to scoop. The first we made it home 110 miles on the starboard engine and the latter we stayed the night on the lake after the port engine conked , ( ate an intake valve) so there goes that theory.
Might we compromise gentlemen? Lets agree that "some" engine failures on piston engines anyway... occur after power changes.
Might we compromise gentlemen? Lets agree that "some" engine failures on piston engines anyway... occur after power changes.
squawk 1276
Agreed. Sort of.
I believe the Catalina's and Twotters have 2 engines? I think a C182 has only one. Why phuck with a good thing until you are ready for the worst.
Keep giving her until (respecting the max cont. power setting) you are able to make a field or road before pulling to climb power.
Treating the engines with respect is vital for the life of the power plants. However, I'd rather sacrifice a 25K$ engine than wreck a 100K$ aircraft and more important...it's souls onboard.
But hey...it's just me...2 out of 3 engines failures before I got smart. What were the odds I thought.
I believe the Catalina's and Twotters have 2 engines? I think a C182 has only one. Why phuck with a good thing until you are ready for the worst.
Keep giving her until (respecting the max cont. power setting) you are able to make a field or road before pulling to climb power.
Treating the engines with respect is vital for the life of the power plants. However, I'd rather sacrifice a 25K$ engine than wreck a 100K$ aircraft and more important...it's souls onboard.
But hey...it's just me...2 out of 3 engines failures before I got smart. What were the odds I thought.
Ah but if you pull power early in the climb, you are decreasing your chances of losing that single engine in the long run.
Just like the guys who do their multi on a turbo seneca, and learn "Wow, if i crank the good engine to fifty inches, i don't need to remember to put the gear and flaps up". Which is probably just as well, as you will need the gear and flaps down for what may likely follow shortly.
If you treat your engine well, it is far less likely to fail you, thereby avoiding this problem.
Just like the guys who do their multi on a turbo seneca, and learn "Wow, if i crank the good engine to fifty inches, i don't need to remember to put the gear and flaps up". Which is probably just as well, as you will need the gear and flaps down for what may likely follow shortly.
If you treat your engine well, it is far less likely to fail you, thereby avoiding this problem.
Assuming you are the ONLY pilot flying this airplane...however when there are 10-12 different pilots flying this airplane in a single season with 10-12 different 'styles' of flying it...ahramin wrote: If you treat your engine well, it is far less likely to fail you, thereby avoiding this problem.
Add the factor that they are skydive aircraft to begin with...maintenance ain't a priority...believe me I once was there. If the price is right, "Joe's Wing Wrench Garage" will suffice.
We are not talking about great aircraft like Cat or Twin Otter or a CL215....I am talking about a clapped out single engine, skydive aircraft flown by many different pilots with different techniques on a shoe string budget.
I am just trying to give buddy a fighting chance is all. I'd hate to see at his level of experience having a failure and not being able to recognize he/she is about to fly into hydro wires because he is desperate, in disbelief, and with the door open as his passenger's are "trying" to bail out on him/her...literally.
Will it fail on the first power reduction...gosh I hope not. 2 out of 3 times makes me think it will. And there's nothing you can say that will make me change my mind. When you have a choice between hitting onlookers, or fuel depot, or busy 2 lane highway with trucks doing well above speed limit or a 300 year old Oak tree, you may want to keep the max continuous power on for another 30-45 seconds until you can make a field. Not many options as a young pilot trying to build time. Shit money, shit job (but fun) shitty aircraft. Thats if he/she lucky in landing a flying job. Otherwise, "put down those RayBans (Revo's are better by the way) you won't be using them for a while, pick up this box and load into that aircraft."
But hey, I was NOT lucky enough to slide into an intructing job. My probation officer would not allow it. Something about having a short fuse and assulting people...Can't really remember. Too many years ago.
It is a fact that on the flat (horizontally-opposed) fuel-injected engines such as Lycoming or Continental, that last inch or so of throttle may not change the manifold pressure very much, but it has a big change in the fuel flow.
If the engine is set up a bit lean, if you like to grab the throttle right after takeoff and pull it back to 25 inches, next time watch the fuel flow drop and the EGT soar. You are cooking the exhaust valves, which are already red-hot.
Most pilots don't learn their aircraft systems well enough to ever learn this. The rest of the pilots usually aren't observant enough to notice the engine instrument indications.
Here's one guy who did:
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182179-1.html
Here's what he says:
"On all these engines (again, normally-aspirated), the first observable reduction in MP from the fully open position will also lean the mixture. That's something you don't want to do. It is counter-productive because it can actually increase the peak internal cylinder pressure, and it moves the peak pressure too close to top dead center. You will usually see the CHTs rise if you do that."
I know, you guys are all smarter than him. I knew that already, you don't need to tell me.
If the engine is set up a bit lean, if you like to grab the throttle right after takeoff and pull it back to 25 inches, next time watch the fuel flow drop and the EGT soar. You are cooking the exhaust valves, which are already red-hot.
Most pilots don't learn their aircraft systems well enough to ever learn this. The rest of the pilots usually aren't observant enough to notice the engine instrument indications.
Here's one guy who did:
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182179-1.html
Here's what he says:
"On all these engines (again, normally-aspirated), the first observable reduction in MP from the fully open position will also lean the mixture. That's something you don't want to do. It is counter-productive because it can actually increase the peak internal cylinder pressure, and it moves the peak pressure too close to top dead center. You will usually see the CHTs rise if you do that."
I know, you guys are all smarter than him. I knew that already, you don't need to tell me.
hz2p wrote:It is a fact that on the flat (horizontally-opposed) fuel-injected engines such as Lycoming or Continental, that last inch or so of throttle may not change the manifold pressure very much, but it has a big change in the fuel flow.
If the engine is set up a bit lean, if you like to grab the throttle right after takeoff and pull it back to 25 inches, next time watch the fuel flow drop and the EGT soar. You are cooking the exhaust valves, which are already red-hot.
Most pilots don't learn their aircraft systems well enough to ever learn this. The rest of the pilots usually aren't observant enough to notice the engine instrument indications.
Here's one guy who did:
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182179-1.html
Here's what he says:
"On all these engines (again, normally-aspirated), the first observable reduction in MP from the fully open position will also lean the mixture. That's something you don't want to do. It is counter-productive because it can actually increase the peak internal cylinder pressure, and it moves the peak pressure too close to top dead center. You will usually see the CHTs rise if you do that."
I know, you guys are all smarter than him. I knew that already, you don't need to tell me.
...Oh one more thing...what he just said
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Cat Driver
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O.K. :
I guess we will have to struggle through many, many posts to get back to the origional statement.
" Engine failures are more common on the first power reduction. "
All I have is suggested is I can find no proof of this.
The engine handling subject link is very well written, however there is a very important item to take into consideration and that is to make the decision to leave the power at 100% or to at some point reduce it to a lower setting.
To truly ensure just what is going on inside your engine you must have an engine moniter fully probed to all cylinders as well as fuel flow to record all temps and pressures as well as fuel flow.
I have flown with these moniters and they are truly amazing in the information that one can gather from them, however they are rare in the airplane fleet today.
Each of us must operate their engines in the manner we think will give best performance and longest life.
Also there will be slight differences in power required from one flight to another.
Common sense would suggest to me that by using a very slow, smooth reduction in power once you are safely established in the climb the savings in wear caused by friction due to high RPM and high internal pressures will be more fuel efficient and will not shorten the engine life.
Remember the enemy of engines is heat...combined with friction and distance travelled rotationally ........... the higher the RPM the further the distance travelled internally within the engine.
By the way heat can be reduced through higher airspeed.
Cat.
I guess we will have to struggle through many, many posts to get back to the origional statement.
" Engine failures are more common on the first power reduction. "
All I have is suggested is I can find no proof of this.
The engine handling subject link is very well written, however there is a very important item to take into consideration and that is to make the decision to leave the power at 100% or to at some point reduce it to a lower setting.
To truly ensure just what is going on inside your engine you must have an engine moniter fully probed to all cylinders as well as fuel flow to record all temps and pressures as well as fuel flow.
I have flown with these moniters and they are truly amazing in the information that one can gather from them, however they are rare in the airplane fleet today.
Each of us must operate their engines in the manner we think will give best performance and longest life.
Also there will be slight differences in power required from one flight to another.
Common sense would suggest to me that by using a very slow, smooth reduction in power once you are safely established in the climb the savings in wear caused by friction due to high RPM and high internal pressures will be more fuel efficient and will not shorten the engine life.
Remember the enemy of engines is heat...combined with friction and distance travelled rotationally ........... the higher the RPM the further the distance travelled internally within the engine.
By the way heat can be reduced through higher airspeed.
Cat.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Ok Cat...agreed.
If we every fly two crew together, I'll take one set of levers and you can have the other set
I'd hate to talk sports with you.
However I have learned a lot on this thread. Don't worry, I don't expect you to say the same....haha!
Until the next topic...may it be like Cat's and Dog's forever!!
Ruff-Meow!
If we every fly two crew together, I'll take one set of levers and you can have the other set
I'd hate to talk sports with you.
However I have learned a lot on this thread. Don't worry, I don't expect you to say the same....haha!
Until the next topic...may it be like Cat's and Dog's forever!!
Ruff-Meow!
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Cat Driver
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Birddog :
People with open minds always learn forom others, I try and have an open mind.
If we flew together you would be operating one set of levers...the pitch levers, and monitering the instruments to ensure everything is normal......
I always remain in control of the power levers to ensure accurate and instant control of the airplane until such a time as the thing is climbing at an airspeed that will give safe directional control in case of a sudden loss of power on one engine.
The power reductions are simple, as I reduce manifold pressure you follow with RPM.
Usually I have the other pilot fly every other leg, then we just reverse the proceedure...you handle power and I handle pitch and moniter.
Then when the other pilot gets to be real good I make them do all the take offs and landings because I am tired of doing them....
Have a safe season and don't accept candy from the MNR guys after work when you are alone....
People with open minds always learn forom others, I try and have an open mind.
If we flew together you would be operating one set of levers...the pitch levers, and monitering the instruments to ensure everything is normal......
I always remain in control of the power levers to ensure accurate and instant control of the airplane until such a time as the thing is climbing at an airspeed that will give safe directional control in case of a sudden loss of power on one engine.
The power reductions are simple, as I reduce manifold pressure you follow with RPM.
Usually I have the other pilot fly every other leg, then we just reverse the proceedure...you handle power and I handle pitch and moniter.
Then when the other pilot gets to be real good I make them do all the take offs and landings because I am tired of doing them....
Have a safe season and don't accept candy from the MNR guys after work when you are alone....
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
