Student logging night/instrument and multi-instructing

[threegreen]

Two questions with two scenarios...

Scenario A

A post PPL student wants to do a night rating and decides to do the 5 hours of instrument at night. Now from my understanding if they do this than the dual hours cannot count towards the five dual for the night rating. If you could count both than potentially you could just do five hours of instrument at night and kill two birds with one stone, but that doesn't make sense. So ok you have to do five instrument and then 5 extra actually at night. Do they still log the flight time for the instrument under the night column? Recently I saw a PTR that looked as though at the end of a night cross-country the hood was put on to cover 0.5 instrument. In that case than that 0.5 night could not be counted to the 5 dual??? This PTR was issued a night rating.

Scenario B

Two instructors at a flying club. Both have less than 50 hours multi but have a chance to instruct on the twin if they get their 50 hours. If they need 15 hours each and it only takes 10 to get checked out, can they both fly the plane and one log dual and log PIC and split the cost to get 50 hours? I am aware that you can't teach multi without 50 hours but what if the instructors went IFR?

M

[Aeros]

Two questions with two scenarios...

Scenario A

A post PPL student wants to do a night rating and decides to do the 5 hours of instrument at night. Now from my understanding if they do this than the dual hours cannot count towards the five dual for the night rating. If you could count both than potentially you could just do five hours of instrument at night and kill two birds with one stone, but that doesn't make sense. So ok you have to do five instrument and then 5 extra actually at night. Do they still log the flight time for the instrument under the night column? Recently I saw a PTR that looked as though at the end of a night cross-country the hood was put on to cover 0.5 instrument. In that case than that 0.5 night could not be counted to the 5 dual??? This PTR was issued a night rating.

As far as the logging goes -- was the flight conducted at night? If it is then the time should be logged in the night column. That being said, it does make the math more complicated when it comes time to apply for the night rating. In the case of a student that did all of their hood work at night they would actually need to have 10 hours of night dual. When working with PTRs for students in this case you need to remember that you need to end up with "Total night dual - Night instrument time >= 5 hours." I have had students do this in the past. It does require a bit of mental gymnastics to make sure that all of the requirements are met but it isn't really all that hard. In the example you provided here the .5 hours flown under the hood should not have been counted towards the night dual time (nor the night cross-country either)-- but is still could have been logged as such, just not used to meet the hour requirements for the rating. If it was counted as night, cross-country and instrument time for the application for the night rating and the rating was issued this would have been an error -- mind you it wouldn't be the first, nor the last time that this knd of thing happend.

Scenario B

Two instructors at a flying club. Both have less than 50 hours multi but have a chance to instruct on the twin if they get their 50 hours. If they need 15 hours each and it only takes 10 to get checked out, can they both fly the plane and one log dual and log PIC and split the cost to get 50 hours? I am aware that you can't teach multi without 50 hours but what if the instructors went IFR?

M

The 50 hours of multi requirement only applies when you are providing training to someone that doesn't already hold a multi-engine class rating (See 425.21 (5)). In this case they could each check the other pilot out, provide additional dual or they can also teach IFR to anyone that already holds a multi-engine class rating. Many schools will do this type of thing. They might have one or two instructors that have the magic 50 hours multi. These folks provide the student with their multi-engine class rating. Once the student has the rating the other instructor (with less than 50 hours multi) jumps in the twin with the (newly minted) multi-engine pilot to provide the multi IFR training. Once this instructor has built up the 50 hours they can then begin filling the role of the person doing the initial multi-engine class rating training.

[Kenny G]

Aeros is right about scenario B

Yes they can both log it, as long as one is the trainer and one is the trainee.
The only question I will post is, the check ride should cover the same things on the multi ride. i.e., engine failures steep turns blah blah. If that is the case then what make the instructor qualified to "check out" some one, (who could have no time in the aircraft) and not qualified to "teach" some one (who has no time on mulit engine)?

Scenario A

The difference is "logged" time and "counted" time. If you do it at night "log" it... if you do x country, "log" it. BUT if you do any instrument time at night then that NIGHT time does not "count" towards your 5 night. Even if the flight is 1.0 and the instrument is .1, the night does not count. As for that PTR, I echo what aeros said, that should not have counted.

[looproll]

do you even have to submit a PTR to TC for a night rating?!

[Aeros]

do you even have to submit a PTR to TC for a night rating?!

There is no requirement to submitt the PTR for a night rating. In fact, you don't even need to use a PTR for training towards a night rating. You only need one if you are training towards a PPL, CPL or Instructor Rating.

[threegreen]

Ya the PTR is simply because they are continuing on to do a CPL. Upon further review it was found that the night instrument time was not actually counted towards the night rating. It was extra night so they still had 5.0 of night without the hood on. I guess it's true that the only set back to doing the instrument at night is the math when it comes down to calculating what "counts." Ugh, pilots and math.

As for the multi they can both be checked out by a qualified instructor and then fly IFR together to gain the 50 hours. Correct? Both have current multi-ifr ratings, the check is simply the FTU's policy before they will let them fly it.

M

[Stan_Cooper]

As for the multi they can both be checked out by a qualified instructor and then fly IFR together to gain the 50 hours. Correct? Both have current multi-ifr ratings, the check is simply the FTU's policy before they will let them fly it.

If two instructors are flying together and they both have multi ratings then one instructor can log PIC and one can log dual... Neither instructor in this case needs to have an IFR rating, nor is there any requirement for the flight to be conducted IFR.