Why Spin Training?

2R · Post by 2R » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:46 pm

Spining an airplane that is designed not to spin is stupid.That is why it is not done in the USA as most airplanes are built there and they know better.
Do not forget about forward spins Hedley or as you may call them snap rolls.
Lazy eights ,Chandelles,turns on a point ,pivotal altitude turns ,eights on ,eights around,s-turns ,spiral descents,steep turns at 55 degrees of bank would be far more productive exercise's for pilot training to increase pilot co-ordination and skills.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:56 pm

And don't forget x/wind landings....

2R · Post by 2R » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:04 pm

I once had the pleasure of flying with a certain gentleman who on departure in his amphib C185 out of CYCD cranked and banked a nice Chandelle of the runway and confused the FSS as they did not know what runway he had departed as it happened so fast and smooth ,if you blink you missed it.Why taxi when you can fly.

OW · Post by OW » Sat Apr 01, 2006 5:35 pm

In a recent issue of Flying Magazine it was mentioned that FULL Spin training was eliminated due to the fact that it usually occured at an altitude that would not permit a recovery. The same article raised the question of why that was a good reason for not completing the training.

We all know that avoidance is the main goal of the training, but a full understanding is a helpful tool in accepting the value of the avoidance.

How many of you would have tried the whole thing anyway if your instructor had just said "Just learn how to avoid it, caus you won't live to recover from it."

Don't learn to be cautious crossing the street, cause every gopher knows it's impossible anyways.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 6:14 pm

" I once had the pleasure of flying with a certain gentleman who on departure in his amphib C185 out of CYCD cranked and banked a nice Chandelle of the runway and confused the FSS as they did not know what runway he had departed as it happened so fast and smooth ,if you blink you missed it.Why taxi when you can fly. "

When I read this I though who might that have been cause I used to own a 185 Amphib....said to my self who in fu.k did I do that with?

Then I read the above again and sighed a sigh of reliefe.. whan I read this..

"with a certain gentleman "

So who was it?

Cat

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:40 am

Oh Cat, you are so modest...

Remember your tiger that couldn't be spun?? Not that it wasn't tried...

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:59 am

ISTP makes a good point about stalls going bad when you solo. Wednesday, I kept cocking-up my power-on stalls. They kept banking and turning left, nose down, and my instructor, after one such, did say it could possibly end up in a spin.

Aprt from that, I did ask him yesterday why such emphasis was placed on learning spin recovery since most times you'll be too close to ground for recovery. He agreed with my point; didn't have a further answer; suggested I pose the question out of interest to the CFI someday. Obviously, someone who set the training rules and regs had a reason. Maybe the stall training gone bad is it. Dunno.

Rained Saturday, so spent some time in the simulator. Helped me get ready for real spirals today. Had my instructor do a spin in the simulator to show me the visual sensation. Interesting. Weird. Glad I did. Know what to expect visually now.

2R · Post by 2R » Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:43 am

There are only two pilots that I know that pull that off ,without hurting himself or the aircraft .And chuckles worth is one .
If you are unlucky enough to find yourself in a spin too close to the ground
do not try to recover from the spin.Spin it in to the ground in a fully stalled spin and you will spend less time in hospital than if you try to recover and manage to hit the ground in a spiral dive.
The first spin that was ever demonstrated to me was recovered a few hundred feet AGL .I was thrilled i thought it was the most fun ever wow that was great i was thinking lets do that again .Oh boy this flying is better than extreme skiing . And then i seen the face of my instructor and i realized that something was wrong as he looked scared .His artificial leg had came off and he was having trouble applying the rudder to stop the rotation.As the leg had jammed under the rudder pedal.When i asked him how he lost part of his leg he told me it was in a spinning accident .We went back up for some more spinning .He was trooper was our old instructor.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:01 am

Anybody remember the AD's on the C-150/152 where people were jamming the rudder past the stop during spins?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:15 am

Quote 2R:

" There are only two pilots that I know that pull that off ,without hurting himself or the aircraft .And chuckles worth is one . "

There are many pilots who train and practice to reach as close to perfection as mere mortals can attain. When you attend large airshows the pilots performing these manouvers have demonstrated they have that ability, what seperates air display pilots from flight instructors working under a very controlled set of rules is flight instructors must perform all manouvers at an altitude that will give room for recovery if control is lost.

Accurate flying is all about training and recurrent practice...and some luck thrown in occasionally.

However I do appreciate your faith in me.

Cat

Hotwings · Post by **Hotwings** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:00 pm

Toronto Guy,

Why do you ask questions on this forum that you have already answered in the same post. I agree with CatDriver, start asking your instructor more of these repetative questions. Well, that's not exactly what he was saying, but I am.

TG-"I'm not at all convinced of the need to teach me how to recover from a spin, unless, I suppose, there are some situations at altitude that could result in a spin -- through circumstances and pilot error."

Here it is.....right here....YOU JUST TOLD US.....

TG-"Don't know about others, but my instructor is indeed constantly giving me examples of what might be happening: e.g. "OK, let's suppose you're on the base leg and getting ready to turn onto final but you think you're too low, so you start nosing up..." Or: "You're on base, you've started your turn onto final too late and you're going past the runway; you make a bad decisions and deepen the turn. Airspeed drops and..."

That's why you need to know about spins, and stalls (with and without flaps), and aggravated stalls....shall I go on! Your instructor just gave you many examples.

Also, I don't know if anyone agrees, but I could really do without ALL of the complaining. You know.....about the few bumps you flew through on each and every flight and how the visibility was bad and the horizon was obstructed......then don't fly. Better yet, when your instructor tells you that today's not a good day for the particular lesson you're working on.....maybe you'll start picking up on what he's talking about. A Met Class might help with that. Thus, helping YOU to make decisions about the weather and the conditions of your practice area. Having that reference, especially as a beginner pilot makes it easier to get those lessons completed.

Sorry, I'm just tired of watching you come on here and give everyone a play-by-play everyday that you go flying.

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:44 pm

Want to see a Cherokee do something nasty - doesn't happen accidentally that often?
Full power, full flap stall - just as you might experience in a botched overshoot (ie. add full power and haul that nose up 20º in an effort to out-climb the trees that are fast approaching!) - do that and watch that sucker snap over. Well, "snap over" is probably a bit of an exaggeration, but compared to it's normal, docile handling, it's damn fast. Anyway, what I am getting at is that just about any aircraft is capable of getting into an "unusual attitude" if it is badly mishandled. Knowing what ALL stages of stall/spins look like is vital for pilots, and knowing what to do if you get into one is obviously very important (better if you don't mishandle the aircraft in the first place though!).
I think it's better for a student pilot to initially feel a little frightened in a spin, but at least know how to recover, than simply be told what to do, then being unable to remember what to do when the worse happens.

Hotwings · Post by **Hotwings** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:53 pm

"just about any aircraft is capable of getting into an "unusual attitude" if it is badly mishandled. Knowing what ALL stages of stall/spins look like is vital for pilots, and knowing what to do if you get into one is obviously very important (better if you don't mishandle the aircraft in the first place though!). "

"I think it's better for a student pilot to initially feel a little frightened in a spin, but at least know how to recover, than simply be told what to do, then being unable to remember what to do when the worse happens."

Laticsdave, I couldn't agree with you more.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 1:03 pm

I third that opinion.

TorontoGuy · Post by **TorontoGuy** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:55 pm

Hotwings, I had no idea that my little questions and stories were getting someone so upset that he'd write out such a long harangue about them! Sorry to read you feel that way. Honestly, tho, you've got one thing wrong: I wasn't complaining, I was describing, as part of the story, in the same way you might say that the sky was blue, the grass was green.

I suppose nobody's forcing you to read my stuff. Nonetheless, I hear your point.

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:43 pm

Hey TG, don't get too distraught

I personally like to hear you talk about flying, it's nice to hear a fresh perspective from someone so in love with the act of aviating.

And I also know it gives me a good idea what is going through my friends/pax head when i take them flying, them not being "super-pilots" and stuff like that.

Keep on keeping on

Anti

Hotwings · Post by **Hotwings** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:24 am

Toronto Guy

Your little questions and stories are hardly getting me upset.....you missed the point of my post. It's the fact that you not only ask a question, but then answer it yourself! If you want the feedback from this forum then try just posting the question.

I have no problem with posts asking questions, its the complete regurgitation of the conversation with your instructor thats annoying.

RatherBeFlying · Post by **RatherBeFlying** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:09 am

Don't know about survivability remaining in spin if initiated at low level.

As for gliders, people have survived spins into the ground in a Blanik, but not the Puchaz.

Time spent in the hospital is very short if you're DOA.

As for staying out of spins in the pattern:

Control your airspeed
Use at least 30 degrees bank turning base and final (45 degrees recommended in gliders) so that you're not tempted to "help" the turn with rudder

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:32 am

staying out of spins in the pattern

Better advice: keep the ball centered and fly 1.5 times your
stall speed until you're wings level on final, at which time
you should slow down to 1.3 times your stall speed.

Eg Vs = 50 mph. Maintain 1.5 x 50 = 75 mph until wings level
final. Over the fence you want to be 1.3 x 50 = 65 mph

Why 1.5 x Vs? Remember that in a level, co-ordinated
60-degree banked turn, you will pull 2 G. Stall speed will
increase to sqrt(2) x Vs = 1.4 x Vs. So, at 1.5 x Vs, you
can pull 2 G, which you should not be doing in the pattern.

Other crucial advice: keep the ball centered. No skidding
turns. See "illusions created by drift".

People get too worried about bank angle. Bank angle isn't
the problem, it's angle of attack that's the problem. Heck,
you can do a 90 degree banked slip at 1.5 x Vs and you
won't stall, because you're not pulling any G, and so
you're not cranking up the AOA.

Hotwings · Post by **Hotwings** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:02 am

Most students are taught not to use more than 30 degrees of bank especially when flying lower to the ground (ie. the circuit). When this bank angle is exceeded what happens when the student happens to lower the nose (for any number of reasons), throw in improper rudder imputs and the chance of a spiral dive developing is more likely.

Isn't that the objective, to teach students to stay away from scenarios that will result in spiral dives, spins, stalls.

In my opinion, exceeding 30 degrees angle of bank in the circuit is not something students should be doing.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:06 am

I think that a more in depth understanding of attitudes and movements and the understanding of how to produce and control same would be a move in the right direction before they are exposed to circuits or any other flight regime.

But WTF would I know about it.

Cat

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:35 am

The following training video illustrates WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN if more than 30 degrees of bank is used below 1,000 AGL:

http://www.skipstewartairshows.com/v2/slowjump2.wmv

Hotwings · Post by **Hotwings** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:48 pm

Hedley, That's exactly what I'm talking about.......I think students should only be able to do that once their licenced with a little bit of time under their belt.