Buying a plane to build time

[icecold]

I am thinking of buying a cessna 150 since they are the cheapest to run and operate. Would this be an ok way to build time? I would like 500 to 1000 pic for my first job in aviation. i would get my atpl quicker and it would be a good investment. Otherwise being an fo is a long route.

[twotter]

You may want to look at some other types as well.. Many of the older taylorcraft, aeronca etc. may be found for some good deals.. Of course, before you buy, get a good reputable engineer to check out not only the airplane, but it's records..

[Strega]

If you are in the YYC area, there are still shares available in the Okotoks Flight Clubs' C-150, ($50/month and $30/hour dry/air time) and excellent, cheap way to buid time and skill/experience

PM me if you are interested

[PC12's are better]

Ice Cold this is only my personal opinion but this is how I see it.

consider that if you spend the money on insurance it will cost you about 4000/year approx alone, speak to the guys with park insurance. dave fitzpaterick is a great guy and will be able to help you out. at the end of the day you will have to pay for 5-10 100 hour inspections. at what cost? I don't know, 200-300 maybe

so tack on another 1000-3000 dollars for maintainance alone.

so you are already somewhere near 5-7000 and you havn't paid for fuel, unscheduled maintainance, upgrade or even the aircraft ammortization. what does it cost to hold 30,000 for a year, 3000 maybe at 10% interest rate.

so that's $10,000 and only now you are ready to pay for fuel.. god help you if the aircraft has any problems, blown piston, cracked head. metal in the oil.. I wouldn't want to overhaul any engine, even an O-230

you aren't looking to get an aircraft ie. C172R/S or such but an aircraft that is easilly found at any airport ramp available for rent. what happens if you don't get a good job after 1000 hrs, are you looking to spend more time in the aircraft.

at the end of the day you may end up spending the same amount of money I think more on the 150, but the risk of the investment on the 150 is huge, consider the cost and likeleyhood of an overhaul on an O230 and that is enough for me to go rent

My 2 cents, still looking for change

[Jungle Jim]

I've got a Stinson 108-3 and it is my hobby.( I'm not looking for a career in Aviation) I find that at the end of every year my costs come out to about $90.00-$100.00 per hour to fly. This includes everything.(maintenance,gas insurance,upgrades, etc) The only thing about having your own plane is that you get to fly whenever you want. You are not subject to plane availability.

My friend with a C-150 finds that his costs are about $65.00-$75.00 per hour. The 0-200 engine is an 1800 hour engine and if you are looking for 1000 hours you will need a low time engine to start with.Plan on things such as:
1) tires- $300.00 per set
2) Annual- $500.00
3) Insurance- $1000.00/year
4) Oil changes- $50.00 every 25 hrs without filter kit
5) Tie down-$50.00 per month
6) transponder recert- $100.00
7) ELT recert- $25.00/year
etc

In short see if you can rent or join a club first. It will be cheaper.

[niss]

Im looking at a 50% on a PA28-140. I got a quote for insurance, as a student with "0"hours and now previous ownership, the total for the plane will be around $2000 split 2 ways. This covers 30000 hull in motion and on the ground as well as $1000000 liability and $100000 for each seat. Also what I couldnt believe is that the deductable is $100!

The cost of the share will be about $16000.

I dont need a loan so interest is not an issue, but God help me if we need to MOH the engine. It is high time but it looks like it still has plenty left in her. 1917SMOH. And the whole aircraft has been OH toes to tits with exception of the engine roughly 600 hrs ago.

I think it is a very economic way to go.

[Stinky]

I owned a plane for time building. In the end it cost about the same as renting. The #1 advantage is flying when you want, you will fly a lot more. It's nice to be able to take the plane on a 3 day vacation and not have to worry if you only put 4 hours on it.
You will also learn more by not having a flying school tell you it's too windy, too cloudy etc.

[cyyz]

I owned a plane for time building. In the end it cost about the same as renting.

It all boils down to the numbers... If you do fly for 1000 hours, then your hourly insurance is $1, if you fly 100 hours your hourly insurance is $10...

If you plan on flying it for the 1000 hours, you're best bet and that's assuming you don't have any incidental maintenance issues along the way is to buy and not rent...

Also, I know 2 people that have tried this, they thought the very same thing, "1000 hours," they got 250, and 200 in the year, you need to pay for the hours, and I'm guessing that's a 9-5 job, you'll be looking at flying on weekends and evenings,

Bad wx is a fact of life, there goes a weekend, a day, or some hours...

If you can pull off the 1k hours, you are golden...

But 100hrs, you're better off buying a share as someone mentioned in YYC for example...

and lastly, renting it from the flight school...

OR

Instructor rating for 7k, and free hours everyday and you're paid peanuts to fly...

[Stinky]

I averaged 150hrs a year for two years. Of course I had to have a full time job to pay for the plane which meant a lot of CAVOK days the plane sat in the hangar. In hindsight I would have had a partner to split the costs.

[Luscombe]

Buying an airplane in the OM category can also save you a whack of bucks (as long as you are mechanically inclined).

I've had my Luscombe 8A for 16 years now. I bought it initially as a time-builder but fell in love with the little thing. It's a simple airplane (ie Continental 65 engine, no electrics, no vacuum pump etc...) as a result I got to really enjoy the simplicity..... not much there but then again not much to break either.

In all my years of owning it, I have never paid $4,000 for insurance for a year. I go through COPA, and I pay less than $1,000 per year. Just like car insurance, it certainly pays to shop around.

Don't get me wrong, I think the C150 is a wonderful airplane. It's just that if you are looking for a cheap time-builder, you might want to think about a Champ, Taylorcraft or something like that. Besides, flying around an airplane with the "little wheel on the back end where it belongs" is a lot of fun. It might also get you a job where flying a tailwheel airplane is part of the picture.

Let me know what you decide.

[icecold]

Ya thats what i would do, even buy mogas or mix it to make it cheaper. I would only get an annual done on it and do the rest myself. I would fly the nuts off of it so I can log 1500 hours or so. I should be able to find a 150 from 15-20k with low time.

[Inverted2]

If you are semi-handy and have a bit of a maintinence background you should consider a plane that is on Owner Maintenance or a homebuilt. You would save tons of cash by doing the work yourself but you'd have to trust your work! Also, resale value wise, they are devalued on OM.

[CarbIce]

We had a 1962 Cherokee 160 with 4 owners.... 5 hours per month was the break even point with renting. If you fly less than 5 hours per month, rent. If your flying more to build time fast, Id consider buying, but I wouldn't try owning alone... your bank account will bet smoked the first time something breaks.

Find a local guy selling blocktime... if you find a good plane, you can get the freedom and benefits of ownership for less than renting.

Sold my share last summer.... miss the old beauty. It had an engine failure 6 months after I sold... not sure where they took it but it cost them almost $30k to get it back in the air.

If I get to buy again... it will be a Champ.

Good luck

[icecold]

I was thinking of taking time off the plane and puting it in my log book, not all of it but some. It will save money, I know its wrong but so is logging taxi time towards your total time.

[Stinky]

Logging taxi time is perfectly acceptable. I believe it's in the CAR's, once the aircraft is moving under its own power with the intention of flight.

As far as just logging time falsely, most people on this board are going to strongly disagree with that including myself. The truth of the matter is though, if you plan on BS'ing time, you don't need to buy a plane. I've held numerous flying jobs, several of which had a minimum number of hours of multi PIC or night or IFR etc. yet nobody has ever looked at my logbook. I would highly doubt that anyone would ever check your aircraft journey log and compare it with your personal log. Possibly transport if you applied for a license and clearly didn't have a clue what you were talking about, they might get suspicious.
I've never BS'ed any time, I know people who have and it hasn't come back to bite them and theyv'e done well in the industry. The only problem is, they have to live with that forever, it really is cheating.

[AntiNakedMan]

I think it depends how much you cheat..... If you play-log 1000 hours and you only have 500, one would hope it might show..... Maybe not though. Either way, I don't cheat because i want to spend that .2 or .3 actually in the plane

Anti

[Stinky]

Also, I realized that if youre entering this stuff in the log book you're still paying for maintenance as well as insurance, hangaring and payments. A luscombe or similar burns less the 5gal an hour. If you use mogas and get the road tax back you would only be saving 10-15 dollars an hour. Hardly worth it.

[BirdDog IV]

My Two Cents:

-Had a C-120 (Tail Dragger)...all metal.
-Bought it for $16 000.00
-It was rough looking, but airworthy.

Here are some helpful hints for trying to keep the costs down.

1) Get a tie-down at a grass stripwhere the have Glider towing or Skydiving or other small private acft. (S/Ontario has lots of places like that.)

2) Ask either company if they buy bulk fuel (which they probably do) , and then ask if you can buy your fuel on their bulk order.
ie. if they buy 3000 Ltr's a month as to buy 1000 Ltr's and keep it in their
tank.

3) Talk to your insurance company about the lowest HULL coverage you can get. If you can live with the risk of losing the hull and not replacing it then do so. You WILL need Liability Inurance. But again ask for the lowest amount to keep you legal.

4) Find a friend or two to join you in this venture. Splitting costs will be helpful when it comes time for Mtce. I would look for another person like yourself here on AVCan.


Hope this helps.

[Bede]

Logging taxi time is perfectly acceptable. I believe it's in the CAR's, once the aircraft is moving under its own power with the intention of flight.

As far as just logging time falsely, most people on this board are going to strongly disagree with that including myself. The truth of the matter is though, if you plan on BS'ing time, you don't need to buy a plane. I've held numerous flying jobs, several of which had a minimum number of hours of multi PIC or night or IFR etc. yet nobody has ever looked at my logbook. I would highly doubt that anyone would ever check your aircraft journey log and compare it with your personal log. Possibly transport if you applied for a license and clearly didn't have a clue what you were talking about, they might get suspicious.
I've never BS'ed any time, I know people who have and it hasn't come back to bite them and theyv'e done well in the industry. The only problem is, they have to live with that forever, it really is cheating.

I know of a guy and it bit him. He was flying Capt on a Beech 99, which was too much for him (he grossly falsified his time). He crashed, and died. It came back and bit him. Unfortunately, he also killed a bunch of people.

[Hedley]

He was flying Capt on a Beech 99, which was too much for him

So much for PPC's

[ragbagflyer]

I bought a small plane for myself to build time on in december. A christavia mk -1. I was only interested in a tail dragger because I want to eventually fly super cubs, 185's, beavers etc in the bush commercially. It is expensive though. Renting probably would have turned out cheaper but in my opinion it's not really even in the same league as owning. There's way more responsibility in owning. I care way more about my own machine then I ever did with a rental. Mine's a homebuilt so I can do all the maintenance myself, although at this stage I don't. I'm a handy guy but I don't have all the airplane specific tools...yet. It's been great so far. I've flown about 100 hours since December but a big chunk of that was flying the plane from northern ontario to the Yukon (where I live). I've been out landing on frozen lakes on wheels, something I never got to do renting, in fact I actually took a fair bit of flack just for "flying to low" at flight school in Calgary where they have a different outlook on flying then they do in the Yukon. Just today I was scoping out sandbars to land on but decided against it because I was unsure of the firmness. if you want to buy an airplane, go for it. It feels great owning one. Just make sure you have the cash to back it. Also, 1000 hours is a lot to fly in your own plane. Were you planning on doing that in a year? Good luck with that. Even 300 a year in a personal airplane is a lot. I would encourage you to get a taildragger though. WAY more fun in the circuit plus more off airport cabability if thats what you're into. PM me if you have specific questions. I've leaned a lot in the last year since I started shopping for a plane.

[swede]

I bought a small plane for myself to build time on in december. A christavia mk -1. I was only interested in a tail dragger because I want to eventually fly super cubs, 185's, beavers etc in the bush commercially. It is expensive though. Renting probably would have turned out cheaper but in my opinion it's not really even in the same league as owning. There's way more responsibility in owning. I care way more about my own machine then I ever did with a rental. Mine's a homebuilt so I can do all the maintenance myself, although at this stage I don't. I'm a handy guy but I don't have all the airplane specific tools...yet. It's been great so far. I've flown about 100 hours since December but a big chunk of that was flying the plane from northern ontario to the Yukon (where I live). I've been out landing on frozen lakes on wheels, something I never got to do renting, in fact I actually took a fair bit of flack just for "flying to low" at flight school in Calgary where they have a different outlook on flying then they do in the Yukon. Just today I was scoping out sandbars to land on but decided against it because I was unsure of the firmness. if you want to buy an airplane, go for it. It feels great owning one. Just make sure you have the cash to back it. Also, 1000 hours is a lot to fly in your own plane. Were you planning on doing that in a year? Good luck with that. Even 300 a year in a personal airplane is a lot. I would encourage you to get a taildragger though. WAY more fun in the circuit plus more off airport cabability if thats what you're into. PM me if you have specific questions. I've leaned a lot in the last year since I started shopping for a plane.

Good advice, I have owned a couple of planes and it is far more rewarding and interesting than renting. I had some really bad rental experiences, if you can't afford to own, you have no choice but it is really the lousiest way to go. You will learn a hell of a lot more owning and have a huge amount of independence in comparison to renting. As an owner, you can get yourself into more trouble (obviously) but will reap the rewards in terms of invaluable experience.

[SYT_YYZ]

Is it wise to go in on it as a group deal? like have 5 or 6 guys (or gals) go in on a plane together?? anyone done this? if so what problems did you face sharing the plane?

in the end would it be better to rent?

-syt

[swede]

I got into a multi ownership plan once on a C-170. It was ground looped before I ever got near the thing, and I never saw a cent of my $ back. Multi ownership is generally a very bad idea, unless you have some sort of boiler plated lawyered up contract which will end up costing as much as the plane.

[Hedley]

Sweedy: let me guess ... you think the government ought to give everyone their own airplane ... am I correct?

Only a fascist dictatorship would not provide an aircraft for building time to each and every citizen .... it is the right of every citizen to build time in the most egalitarian form possible ... am I close?