Mr. Gazu, read my post again (the one you quoted): by the time management gets around to asking for concessions, they have already dropped the paddle (you know? Shit Creek?). Forcing the employees to draw a line in the sand is a tactic to shift the blame from management who have already taken the company to the wall. Employees don't kill a company with their salaries, but they might mess it up with their attitudes.
Hordes.
Delta Pilots vote 94.7% to strike
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
That is somewhat accurate xs, but do you really think you could talk wage cuts to employees after a bad quarter?...2 quarters?.... year end?...impending doom??
It IS often too late when this comes up and it almost always guarantees bankruptcy protection is around the corner. Unfortunately, management does use it to negotiate down the base salary figures for the pending re-emergence from bankruptcy.
The truth though is, if you are going toe to toe with discounters, you need to reduce costs accordingly.
If payroll takes too big a chunk of revenues, then payroll has to be reduced. Salary cuts are the easiest way to achieve it without compromising capacity. If you reduce capacity, you reduce revenue, which means you reduce expense so reduce (labor) so reduce capacity .....so reduce revenue.... The closed loop economics of the North American aviation industry. Then throw in discounted seat prices...
It IS often too late when this comes up and it almost always guarantees bankruptcy protection is around the corner. Unfortunately, management does use it to negotiate down the base salary figures for the pending re-emergence from bankruptcy.
The truth though is, if you are going toe to toe with discounters, you need to reduce costs accordingly.
If payroll takes too big a chunk of revenues, then payroll has to be reduced. Salary cuts are the easiest way to achieve it without compromising capacity. If you reduce capacity, you reduce revenue, which means you reduce expense so reduce (labor) so reduce capacity .....so reduce revenue.... The closed loop economics of the North American aviation industry. Then throw in discounted seat prices...
cpl_atc
Your facts might be true, but on one hand I tend to believe that companies like AA, DL, UA, AC and other N.American giants are run by a bunch of crooks, which have one goal in common: MONEY.
So, when DL and US Air (for example) have guts to ask someone TWICE for concession while they keep earning their out-of-this-world salaries, I say: screw them and stand up and say NO! I am said that AC guys never had their say in this last round, but probably will never get an interview with them because of this
I heard of SARS, Mad cow, Iraq war x 2, terrorists, high oil prices, bird flue, and nowhere but here in N.America do airlines wine and complain more and try to get concessions! ...Does that tell you something??
Your facts might be true, but on one hand I tend to believe that companies like AA, DL, UA, AC and other N.American giants are run by a bunch of crooks, which have one goal in common: MONEY.
So, when DL and US Air (for example) have guts to ask someone TWICE for concession while they keep earning their out-of-this-world salaries, I say: screw them and stand up and say NO! I am said that AC guys never had their say in this last round, but probably will never get an interview with them because of this
I heard of SARS, Mad cow, Iraq war x 2, terrorists, high oil prices, bird flue, and nowhere but here in N.America do airlines wine and complain more and try to get concessions! ...Does that tell you something??
So compensation for pilots gets less and less until only the bozos and winos will fly airplanes, then they introduce the pilotless aircraft; (kinda like the Skytrain in Vancouver that is driver-less) flight attendants are eliminated too. The only labour cost left is the cost for the guy that turns on the tap that hoses out the airplane between flights. Tickets are electronic, baggage is self-loading, fuel is automatic, maintenance by robots...
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
lol....gr8gazu wrote:Printed facts that back your arguments are almost always a thread killer cpl-atc!
But cpl-atc, if continental is paying 9.7, the lowest of the legacies, but still higher then the LCC's, how are they still not "bankrupt?" or "under protection?" unless they have declared 11, but I thought they were the only one to stay clean?
Why are we looking at LCC's and not Continental's business model?
Furthermore, just to continue our discussion about wages, why not fire some of that middle management? didn't A/C or WJ fire 500 middle managers??
Does A/C still have in house bag handlers and CSR's? Why not fire them all and outsoure to globeground or servisair or whoever is doing it now?
I'm not sure if Delta has already done that, but that's one way to go, before cutting the pilots salaries.
I know the 20/hr baggy vs the 150/hr pilot is a difference... But the planes will not fly without a pilot*, they will fly with whomever is tossing in the bags....
Nice to see that someone actually brought this up. I don't imagine many posting on here understand what that implies. What's the starting pay to fly a jungle jet deltas tier 2s? 18k, ir is it less than that now? If delta pilots were to back down not only would they be making half as much, but the company would have every little rj company out there flying 737's by the end of the year, with the 767 training to begin the year after that.Pith Helmet wrote:Delta management isnt only asking for a ridiculous salary cut. They also want unlimited scope relaxation. With that, the mainline pilots willl see a reduction in their fleet while the connectors gain aircraft and their jobs.
You can get your money back when times are good, but you loose your flying for good.
For all those who say it's better to be making 54k/yr than be out of a job:
What do you think your dentist, doctor or lawyer would say if they were to take a 50% pay cut? How many would scream bloody murder because all the effort they put into getting there was no longer worth it? I think that's exactly the case here. I didn't work in a fine selection of northern shit holes to get an appreciation for northern canada. I didn't clean the bellies of navajo's on rollers as the varsol dripped onto my face to better myself. I didn't bite my tounge as alocholics who couldn't graduate highschool talked down to me because I was "just another pilot wannabe" working the ramp to make them feel important. The guys at Delta don't leave their wives and kids at home half the month, missing birthdays, christmas and every weekend for two decades for 50k a bloody year.
While I don't agree with your opening lines, I certainly agree that the medical profession pays significantly better than aviation..
So if your life sucks that badly, go become an MD or DDS! Did you not make a conscious decision to enter this field or did some one force you?
Can you leave now? You bet. Rather than take the approach we are all famous for as pilots (complaining), act and improve your life!
There are a lot of high school grads driving airplanes but not too many practicing medicine. Management knows that...
So if your life sucks that badly, go become an MD or DDS! Did you not make a conscious decision to enter this field or did some one force you?
Can you leave now? You bet. Rather than take the approach we are all famous for as pilots (complaining), act and improve your life!
There are a lot of high school grads driving airplanes but not too many practicing medicine. Management knows that...
I believe you totally misread what I was trying to convey. I'll try to clear it up for you.
I was trying to say I support the delta pilots decision. I believe they're fighting for the right thing, because at some point all the sacrafice put in isn't worth what you get out. For everyone the equation is different, but a 50% pay cut with an increased flying block and less days off puts lots of people into the same boat.
Right now there is still enough of a top end left the justify the road there IF you can make it. I never said my life sucks, if i did please find the thread it was posted in and share with us all.
I was trying to say I support the delta pilots decision. I believe they're fighting for the right thing, because at some point all the sacrafice put in isn't worth what you get out. For everyone the equation is different, but a 50% pay cut with an increased flying block and less days off puts lots of people into the same boat.
Right now there is still enough of a top end left the justify the road there IF you can make it. I never said my life sucks, if i did please find the thread it was posted in and share with us all.
Sorry if I misinterpereted the above quote as "your life sucks". I think anyone would have a tough time reading "I have had a great career" into it.endless wrote: I didn't work in a fine selection of northern shit holes to get an appreciation for northern canada. I didn't clean the bellies of navajo's on rollers as the varsol dripped onto my face to better myself. I didn't bite my tounge as alocholics who couldn't graduate highschool talked down to me because I was "just another pilot wannabe" working the ramp to make them feel important. The guys at Delta don't leave their wives and kids at home half the month, missing birthdays, christmas and every weekend for two decades for 50k a bloody year.
As I have said a few times endless, The industry is still on the decline and all indicators are that management doesn't think we have hit bottom yet. They still think they can squeeze more out of labor with increased hours and reduced pay. The good news
is: they are going to let us all work later in life to compensate.Cheers and thanks for the clarification.
I'd say that's justification for the top end rather than "my life sucks". I did it like everyone else out there to take a step closer to the final goal. I think you'd be very hard pressed to find pilots who don't have the same stories. Poor instructors who couldn't afford to eat anything other than ketchup soup, poor ramp guys suffering in the knife at -50 in the dark for months. It's no different than a lawyer or doctor justifying their pay by saying they went to school for a decade then articled or interned before they made the big bucks.gr8gazu wrote:Sorry if I misinterpereted the above quote as "your life sucks". I think anyone would have a tough time reading "I have had a great career" into it.endless wrote: I didn't work in a fine selection of northern shit holes to get an appreciation for northern canada. I didn't clean the bellies of navajo's on rollers as the varsol dripped onto my face to better myself. I didn't bite my tounge as alocholics who couldn't graduate highschool talked down to me because I was "just another pilot wannabe" working the ramp to make them feel important. The guys at Delta don't leave their wives and kids at home half the month, missing birthdays, christmas and every weekend for two decades for 50k a bloody year.
I am not arguing against you endless. Just pointing out the trends in the industry.
I too came up though those same ranks and in fact flew for 6 years at jobs that paid less than my wife's entry level filing clerk positions.
I was 10 years in the business before I made as much as my high school job paid that many years earlier. I too worked those crap jobs and got dirty, exhausted and hungry but I did it without expectation. That is why I reacted to your first post. Yes we give up a lot to do this job so you had better love flying airplanes above all else!
The Delta issues aside, discount carriers are here to stay. The legacy(dinosaur) carriers are going to have to make changes to their cost structure in order to survive. Even then, they may not as they are rapidly losing market share. Salary cuts are the easiest way to reduce expenses so they too will continue.
As I said, I don't like it any more than anyone else but that is the current industry trend.
I too came up though those same ranks and in fact flew for 6 years at jobs that paid less than my wife's entry level filing clerk positions.
I was 10 years in the business before I made as much as my high school job paid that many years earlier. I too worked those crap jobs and got dirty, exhausted and hungry but I did it without expectation. That is why I reacted to your first post. Yes we give up a lot to do this job so you had better love flying airplanes above all else!
The Delta issues aside, discount carriers are here to stay. The legacy(dinosaur) carriers are going to have to make changes to their cost structure in order to survive. Even then, they may not as they are rapidly losing market share. Salary cuts are the easiest way to reduce expenses so they too will continue.
As I said, I don't like it any more than anyone else but that is the current industry trend.
I need to find a way to put this in a macro, since it needs to be typed so often:endless wrote:I was trying to say I support the delta pilots decision. I believe they're fighting for the right thing, because at some point all the sacrafice put in isn't worth what you get out. For everyone the equation is different, but a 50% pay cut with an increased flying block and less days off puts lots of people into the same boat.
Supply. Demand. Period. If the market will bear it, companies will do it. It is an employer's market, and probably always will be. They should print this on the back of PPLs so that people aren't disappointed later on.
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Random Flatulation
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your facts may be accurate cpl-atc, but pilot salaries are not the cause of the difference in cost per seat mile. Southwest pilots are the highest paid 737 pilots in the US, and Westjet's new contract has them making the same as Air Canada for a similar aircraft size. The big salary difference between low cost and legacy likely come from the unskilled labour. This is where the unions at the legacy carriers have kept the salaries very high. Probably the biggest cost difference comes from all the other dead weight at a legacy carrier. Compare the employees per aircraft numbers and I bet you'll see a big difference.
cyyz
Or should we all follow US counterparts like Southwest or even majors who give people $7-8/hr start...you heard me right! Then us pilots will feel more worth in life with a $40K salary flying B767, while CEO and managers will form the elite of the society with over payed salaries...
endless
...do you hear yourself at all?? So, what.. just us pilot-wonders are given this gift from above to be making six figure salaries!!? If someone has spent 20-30yrs in the company, is it wrong for the company to reward the person with a descent salary, on which you can actually enjoy your life, instead of trying to meet ends on $10/hr for life! I don't think so.....An ordinary desk clerk in TC or NavCanada starts at $35K+ salary, so a guy after 20 years of braking his back lifting these bags does not deserve it??Does A/C still have in house bag handlers and CSR's? Why not fire them all and outsoure to globeground or servisair or whoever is doing it now?
I'm not sure if Delta has already done that, but that's one way to go, before cutting the pilots salaries.
I know the 20/hr baggy vs the 150/hr pilot is a difference... But the planes will not fly without a pilot*, they will fly with whomever is tossing in the bags....
Or should we all follow US counterparts like Southwest or even majors who give people $7-8/hr start...you heard me right! Then us pilots will feel more worth in life with a $40K salary flying B767, while CEO and managers will form the elite of the society with over payed salaries...
endless
this is so true....like these guys didn't give enough in their life to get to where they deserve, and now some douchebag comes in as a CEO to prove him self that he can run the place even better and cuts pays even further and then rewards him self with a higher salary!! Bunch of f*cking beaurocrats and greedy jerks!!! Well, like I said before about Delta - give it to them boys - you deserve it! Too bad our boys in Canada didn't have the cojones (or their union ot be precise) to do it too...I believe they're fighting for the right thing, because at some point all the sacrafice put in isn't worth what you get out.
What do you think your dentist, doctor or lawyer would say if they were to take a 50% pay cut? How many would scream bloody murder because all the effort they put into getting there was no longer worth it?
Actually, just skimmed through LH's(DD's?) thread about health care, GM, includes $5000 in the sticker price for health benefits and maybe pensions...Random Flatulation wrote:your facts may be accurate cpl-atc, but pilot salaries are not the cause of the difference in cost per seat mile. Southwest pilots are the highest paid 737 pilots in the US, and Westjet's new contract has them making the same as Air Canada for a similar aircraft size. The big salary difference between low cost and legacy likely come from the unskilled labour. This is where the unions at the legacy carriers have kept the salaries very high. Probably the biggest cost difference comes from all the other dead weight at a legacy carrier. Compare the employees per aircraft numbers and I bet you'll see a big difference.
So the "staff" are responsible for the overhead, but it isn't in the wages, it's in the high benefits/health plans and pensions...
Ummm, they want to cut PILOTS wages, so the baggies will still make their $25 the AME's will still make their $25 and the pilots will soon be making $25....So, what.. just us pilot-wonders are given this gift from above to be making six figure salaries!!? If someone has spent 20-30yrs in the company, is it wrong for the company to reward the person with a descent salary, on which you can actually enjoy your life, instead of trying to meet ends on $10/hr for life! I don't think so.....
So, like I said, if they want to have the company go broke, LET THEM, because they didn't need to spend 50k and X years trying to get into the airline when they could have dropped out of high school and straight into the bag handlers room and they'd be retired by now with their 30 years of service, and richer and probably with only 1 wife...
cyyz so since you know all, how come you missed the fact that enitre AC took cuts, including pilots??? Sales, ramp, baggage, inflight, crew sched....all took a bite, some more some less.
I say we keep a $20/hr for a baggage guy with 20+ years of service and KEEP pilots pay where they are! Because they all deserve it!!
But that wouldn't work well for CEOs and VIP, wouldn't it!?? By the way, here's little something that I read today which proves my point that those members of 'elite socitey' never get enough.
I say we keep a $20/hr for a baggage guy with 20+ years of service and KEEP pilots pay where they are! Because they all deserve it!!
But that wouldn't work well for CEOs and VIP, wouldn't it!?? By the way, here's little something that I read today which proves my point that those members of 'elite socitey' never get enough.
American warns of more cuts. American Airlines' new chief financial officer said the carrier needs to cut staff costs further to stay competitive. American won major concessions in 2003 after flirting with Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, but has since insisted that further pay cuts were off the table as it sought suggestions from unions on non-wage related cost reductions and revenue increases. In the fourth quarter, the airline had higher unit costs than Continental Airlines and United Airlines and various discount carriers, but lower than some other traditional carriers. April 7, 2005 [Industry news, Air Canada]
It's about Delta, the only group that is gonna get hit at the moment is/are the pilots, so it ain't like A/C because obviously they wouldn't need to cut wages by 34% for pilots if they just cut the wages 20% across the board... But they want to hit the pilots first and then the other workers... So the pilots should stand their ground....Mig29 wrote:cyyz so since you know all, how come you missed the fact that enitre AC took cuts, including pilots???
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Random Flatulation
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cpl-atc: I'm told that Westjet's top salary for a 73 captain is 150K. AC's top A320 pay is $166/hour. Multiplied by 80 hour months = 160K. Since the A320 is a bit bigger than the 73, the pay is basically the same.
CYYZ: Westjet pilots also get medical benefits et al. As for the pension, you're right, it does cost money. I don't remember how much, but I remember reading it a few years ago and being suprised by how small of a percentage of our pay the company has needed to contribute.
I'd like to see a comparison of management pay (total compensation and cost to the company) between Westjet and AC, and number of managers per aircraft. I think you'll find a lot of dead weight there. Also a comparison of all the employee groups pay at AC vs the same group at Westjet. I bet you find that the pilot wages are not the problem.
CYYZ: Westjet pilots also get medical benefits et al. As for the pension, you're right, it does cost money. I don't remember how much, but I remember reading it a few years ago and being suprised by how small of a percentage of our pay the company has needed to contribute.
I'd like to see a comparison of management pay (total compensation and cost to the company) between Westjet and AC, and number of managers per aircraft. I think you'll find a lot of dead weight there. Also a comparison of all the employee groups pay at AC vs the same group at Westjet. I bet you find that the pilot wages are not the problem.
NO.Random Flatulation wrote:cpl-atc: I'm told that Westjet's top salary for a 73 captain is 150K. AC's top A320 pay is $166/hour. Multiplied by 80 hour months = 160K. Since the A320 is a bit bigger than the 73, the pay is basically the same.
CYYZ: Westjet pilots also get medical benefits et al. As for the pension, you're right, it does cost money. I don't remember how much, but I remember reading it a few years ago and being suprised by how small of a percentage of our pay the company has needed to contribute.
I'd like to see a comparison of management pay (total compensation and cost to the company) between Westjet and AC, and number of managers per aircraft. I think you'll find a lot of dead weight there. Also a comparison of all the employee groups pay at AC vs the same group at Westjet. I bet you find that the pilot wages are not the problem.
You do not average 80 hours of pay time per month per year. Close but no cigarello.
Look at Pprune.
WJ pilots now make MORE than AC 320. Closer to AC 767.
All the b/s about wage cuts, most groups at AC did not take much in the end, because they did not live up to their union promises, and with snap backs are now back to par - except the pilots at AC that have and still are paying for the CCAA.
Ah yes, boo-hoo you say. The great Canadian socialism.
Spend $50-$60,000 learning how to fly, and then make the same as a new hire flight attendant. Actually, AC new hire flight attendants now make MORE than new hire pilots.
SO for all you candy assed, PC correct MFers, bend over an take it up the shufftie if you want to wrork at AC as a pilot, because you LOVE ---- flying??
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Jaques Strappe
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Mig...do you hear yourself at all?? So, what.. just us pilot-wonders are given this gift from above to be making six figure salaries!!? If someone has spent 20-30yrs in the company, is it wrong for the company to reward the person with a descent salary, on which you can actually enjoy your life, instead of trying to meet ends on $10/hr for life! I don't think so.....An ordinary desk clerk in TC or NavCanada starts at $35K+ salary, so a guy after 20 years of braking his back lifting these bags does not deserve it??
Not to belittle ground staff but a baggage handler position should be a job, not a career. No different from flight attendants. There are some leads at AC making 80 grand a year. Sorry but when the national average salary is in the 45K area, that is an insane salary for unskilled labour. The only reason the guy has been there for 20 plus years is because he can't get a job any where else that will pay him that much.
Standby for new atis message
I heard of guys making around 50-55K regular time, but not 80K....unless its O/T when that is possible. Btw, leads get buck or two more on the top hourly salary, which both sales/ramp/baggage is about $22.31hr....so no more than $24-25hr
Now, its sounds a lot, but it not too far off from national average of 45K as you mentioned.
The said part is that pilots at Georgian/Jazz and AC make less than then when they start...I agree...but, I also belive that some of those ramp guys dont deserve $10/hr. Guys who tow A340 around ATC's rush hour traffic in Peason from gates to hangars and drive $200 million equipment really don't deserve this....Maybe not $25/hr, but come to think of some GTAA customer service reps who wonder through the halls of T1 getting payed $25/hr to show people where the bathrooms are, I'd then go for the ramp guy who is towing that A340
Now, its sounds a lot, but it not too far off from national average of 45K as you mentioned.
The said part is that pilots at Georgian/Jazz and AC make less than then when they start...I agree...but, I also belive that some of those ramp guys dont deserve $10/hr. Guys who tow A340 around ATC's rush hour traffic in Peason from gates to hangars and drive $200 million equipment really don't deserve this....Maybe not $25/hr, but come to think of some GTAA customer service reps who wonder through the halls of T1 getting payed $25/hr to show people where the bathrooms are, I'd then go for the ramp guy who is towing that A340
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Jaques Strappe
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