2 pilot crew in a 1 pilot airplane

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:02 am

hi guys,

can you have two pilots one being the pic and the other the first officer in an airplane where you only need one as long as you have it amended in the company operational manual?
the reason for this is if you want to help out a young pilot log the time by putting him/her in the right seat.
the airplane in question is the partenavia twin engine 6 seat airplane.

any info on this would be appreciated

thanks

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:19 am

No you cannot. The only way is if you fly that Partinavia IFR, with no autopilot, it's in the COM, the FO is PPC/PCC'd and there are IFR insturments (including what's necessary for an approach) on the FO side (looking over doesn't count).

Snowgoose · Post by **Snowgoose** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:27 am

PC-12, Navajo, and Caravan are all single pilot airplanes. A lot of places fly them two crew and both people log. Even Citation I and II are single pilot machines. Can't see why you can't do that in a Patenavia. Talk to your TC guy.

flyinthebug · Post by **flyinthebug** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:48 am

How many times do we have to go over this?
If your company amends its Ops manual to reflect a "two crew" operation, you will then be credited with actual F/O time. If the ops manual says it.. its how it is. Remember, Transport approves the ops manual so if it reflects 2 crew, it means you`ll have no issues when it comes time for the ATPL to be signed off. TC will check the company ops manual and if it reflects 2 crew, they wont even bat an eye (prairie region anyways). Be SURE the ops manual is amended and all will be well whether a Partenavia or PA31. Good Luck.
Fly safe.

icecold · Post by **icecold** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:28 am

Bede, you are wrong! The instruments can be on the captains side and f/o can just use them. I think any twin engine can be flown 2 crew, there is a co-pilot column in the log book. Co-pilot time doesn't eally count, not like pic time. If you have a ppc on a turbine then it is looked at by airlines. It can only be counted as half towards your ATPL.

Sulako · Post by **Sulako** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:42 pm

The citation II can be flown single-pilot in Canada as long as you are properly certified. But you also need to keep the weight below 12,500 lbs. Good luck with that.

The Beech 1900 is a single-pilot machine in the states also, but I have yet to see that actually happen in Canada.

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:48 pm

helinas wrote:hi guys,

can you have two pilots one being the pic and the other the first officer in an airplane where you only need one as long as you have it amended in the company operational manual?
the reason for this is if you want to help out a young pilot log the time by putting him/her in the right seat.
the airplane in question is the partenavia twin engine 6 seat airplane.

any info on this would be appreciated

thanks

Ok, bunch of commentary, but, dont seem to have anybody with definitive answers. Allow me to speak from experience, I do have a COM with all the details for 2 pilot operation on a single pilot airplane. I do dispatch it legally with single pilot crew, and with 2 pilot crews. The 2 pilot dispatch will happen for one of three reasons, a) its a customer requirement, or b) I'm sending off a captain that does not meet single pilot IFR requirements, either in experience or in training records, or c) the autopilot is unservicable. The COM (and CARS) do not permit the airplane to dispatch single pilot ifr without a serviceable autopilot.

The reality is, as an operator with aircraft of this calibre, the business case for doing all the paperwork on 2 crew operation often boils down to leaving yourself a dispatch back door with autopilot out of service, and parts on order. Another totally valid business case, is your quoted case above, philathropy, you want to give a young kid an opportunity to log legal time in the airplane. Before you go down this road, you probably do want to sit down and write out a business case justification, even if it's just some notes on a scrap of paper for your own reference. A couple months from now, you will definitely look back at those notes, and ask yourself 'was it worth it', especially if you are trying to justify to 'higher ups' the expenses occurred in the training budget. Another rationale in the business case, it's going to allow you to dispatch the airplane with a captain that does not meet single pilot ifr requirements. All of this assumes you are indeed operating ifr. If you are a vfr only operation, smile, pat yourself on the back, and revel in the philanthropy justification, it's the only one you've got

Now the nitty gritty of the process:-

- First you need to write SOP's for the airplane. This is easiest if you can grab a copy of something already being used by somebody else, and modifiy it to fit your operation. I started with the SOPs for the Transport Canada KingAir as the example, re-wrote them to fit a Cessna 421. You will get brownie points by sticking details in there that are airplane specific. A good example of some of the types of changes you probably need, in our case, we reference most duties as 'pilot flying' and 'pilot not flying', but, some things are dictated by physical realities, switches that can only be reached by person in the left seat, so, we have some duties referenced by 'left seat occupant' and some by 'right seat occupant'. PF can be on either side, but some duties stay with the seat, not with the flight role. TC folks do like that, it demonstrates you are indeed aware of how/why the documents are written, and, have applied the realities of your own aircraft, so you are 'thinking it thru', not just re-writing somebody else's document on your company letterhead.

- Second, you need to ammend your COM to reflect 2 pilot operation. Off the top of my head, this means adding sections for training requirements to qualify for right seat, adding details in operational control areas to reflect 2 pilots dispatch, and afew more fields into the OFP forms.

- Third, you need to take all these updates to TC, and get the COM amendments approved, and, the initial copy of the SOPs approved. The SOPs will become another document on file with TC, just like your COM, and will end up with the same amendment procedures.

- Fourth, you need to take your candidate thru an entire initial training program, gonna be a lot more there than you think offhand. Gonna be more than you expect there, besides the 4 or 5 hours flying (refer to com for details), there's gonna be all the other stuff, CFIT, icing, CRM etc etc.

- Fifth, you will need to do additional training for your captain if they have only done single pilot work on the airplane. Again, reality doesn't matter in this case, it's the training records that matter. Think CRM and flight training for SOPs, stuff you haven't done before. Gotta do it all, and document it.

- Sixth, you need to do flight tests. Yes, that's plural, even your captain will need to do yet another PPC, the initial PPC did not include use of SOPS and delegation of authority. If you use TC for your rides, they will normally combine a ride for both folks, assuming you are not set up already to do PPC and PCC in house. Your captain may have to do another TC PPC ride, this time taking along the FO, and demonstrate the operation as captain of a two crew environment, the FO will have to do a ride as FO, including 2 approaches as pilot flying. Send your CP on the first ride, once they have the 2 pilot thing written on the PPC card, they can do all the PCC rides in house without jumping thru the hoops required to do PPC in house. This is an ongoing thing now, every 'captain' ride in the future will require an FO. If the captain being tested is also being tested for single pilot authority, it will be combined into one ride. the examiner will ask the FO to 'die' at some point along the way, and the captain will be expected to recognize the incapacitation, and take over on his/her own. The rest of the ride will be flown single pilot. The ride will normally include 3 instead of 2 approaches when done this way. the captain will be expected to demonstrate a 'pilot flying', a 'pilot not flying' and a 'single pilot' approach on a combined ride.

After this is all said and done, and you've got captains and first officers with all the correct paperwork on file, you can dispatch the airplane with 2 pilots on board. As long as the dispatch paperwork for the flight in question shows a crew of 2 assigned to the plane, it's legally loggable for both pilots, one as captain, one as FO. I have had folks in the right seat that later used that time as part of the justification for an ATPL license, and they have not had a problem with it.

As yet another point of reference, there is an operator on the field where we are that had a PC-12 in the past. They were dispatching it with 2 folks up front, both wearing shiny new eppilettes. Some of the folks that did ride along in the right seat had the time disqualified by TC when they went to apply for an ATPL. The reason for the disqualification, the operator had never processed the paperwork for 2 pilot operations, and therefore from a TC perspective, that was a single pilot airplane, and folks riding in the right seat were doing just that, going for airplane rides. Without SOPs on file, and training records in place for all that stuff, that time is NOT loggable.

Another detail where I've seen confusion in this area here on AvCanada, is the question of sending the airplane off with 2 crew, when the left seat occupant is indeed qualified to operate the airplane single pilot. Can you still have the FO logging time. The answer is an emphatic YES. It's all about procedure. If your ops manual references 2 crew operations, and the crew is flying the airplane as per the SOPs, then both crew have legally assigned flight duties, and therein is the KEY statement. As long as the flight duties assigned to the second crew member are LEGALLY ASSIGNED (paperwork in order, company, airplane, and individuals), that time is loggable.

In the end, you'll have to ask yourself if its worth the time/effort. I've done it, but I have a valid business case for the process, it's a 'customer requirement', and a secondary bonus, I can dispatch an airplane while I'm waiting on autopilot parts by putting a human into the second seat. i will plead guilty to the charge of 'enjoying' the option to take along youngsters, train them in a 'professional' environment, and give them the opportunity to experience things like 'ice on the airplane' and 'ifr in the flight levels' for the first time. I have yet to hear a complaint from any of them about the typical run of the mill crap, but then again, I pay better for a right seat than most navajo operators pay in the left seat. My captains are all folks that have been thru the formal simulator training on the airplane, and they are all tasked with 'teaching' when they fly with an FO. We treat an FO as a qualified 'entry level' pilot, and utilize the time to make sure they get real world exposure to 'new stuff'. Your mileage may vary.

grassroots · Post by **grassroots** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 5:34 pm

Golden Eagle,

Excellent outline of the requirement to introduce a 2 pilot crew to a 1 pilot aircraft (and operation). If I had a dime for every time an applicant asked me "why can't I sit in the right seat for free and build time?", I could probably buy a Lada. As I am sure everyone can appreciate it is a pretty costly affair to implement all the steps required (TC fees for COM amendments, time, flight training, new PPC's for your Single Pilot IFR guys etc.), the business analysis you spoke of is a very real consideration.

I'm all for the two crew environment for its operational advantages, workload sharing etc. But unfortunately it does carry a heavy price. And at the end of the day, that guy you are trying to help out so he can build hours and hopefully advance to Captain in your organization, will leave you the minute a perceived better job comes along.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:36 pm

icecold,

I'm sorry but either you are from the US (in which case you would be right), or have no knowledge of the subject. You cannot log FO time in any twin engine aircraft. You must be qualified (PPC/PCC). If you want proof talk to the guys at Montair who spent 3000 hrs in the RS of a PC12, applied for their ATPL and had TC tell them that the last 4 years of their career was useless. If you need proof about the flight instruments thing look at page 21 of this document:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... nce703.pdf

"Primary field of vision is defined as right in front of the person, not cross cockpit..."

Just wondering where you got your information from?

icecold · Post by **icecold** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:58 pm

Like I said bede, You can log co-pilot time, but its counts as nothing. If you have a ppc its still not that great. In my company you only need a multi-ifr to fly right seat and about 5 hours of flight time to train. The only good thing right seat time is good for is to move up to the next plane and get pic time. But you have to start somewhere and as an fo its great.

Wigwam Willie · Post by **Wigwam Willie** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:14 pm

In a single crew aircraft with two seats up front, the second seat shall be used for:

lowandslow · Post by **lowandslow** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:15 pm

log it anyways. IS anyone really going to care about the 100 or so odd hours of twin time you have? Are you getting experience? Are you flying on empty legs? If yes, then log it as FO time. After the first few jobs, people could care less about if your company had blah blah blah set up with TC. NEVER lie about a ppc or anything like that, but for a bit of FO time for a newbie, that is actually doing some flying and loading? I say sure. The newbie is getting some hands on experience and hopefully some good advice from a usually more experienced Captain.
People are way to uptight about this I think. Relax

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:52 am

lowandslow wrote:log it anyways. IS anyone really going to care about the 100 or so odd hours of twin time you have? Are you getting experience? Are you flying on empty legs? If yes, then log it as FO time. After the first few jobs, people could care less about if your company had blah blah blah set up with TC. NEVER lie about a ppc or anything like that, but for a bit of FO time for a newbie, that is actually doing some flying and loading? I say sure. The newbie is getting some hands on experience and hopefully some good advice from a usually more experienced Captain.
People are way to uptight about this I think. Relax

While you're at it, why not log jet time when you're in the back of WJ? Some of us have always been honest when logging our time, logging only in types qualifed in, and logging PIC only when the company designates us. Having pilots log time that is not legit lowers the bar for everyone.

lowandslow · Post by **lowandslow** » Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:22 pm

While you're at it, why not log jet time when you're in the back of WJ???

You've missed the point.

Do you have control of the aircraft, no, are you gaining any experience from the Captain sitting beside you, no. Don't log it. If you are then log it. Who really gives a S#@% if TC says otherwise. let them go back 5 years and try to check your 100 hours or so. they won't.

Here is a situation for ya, A 180 pilot on floats goes with an experienced pilot in a BE18 up north. Coming back empty, newbie takes off, flies the 2 hours home and lands, all under close supervision from the vet (dual contrtols). Log it, even without the bullsh$% PPC from TC?? Sure and don't forget to buy the Capt a beer later!!!!

As i said before, people get way too worked up over this logging of time bs.

FlyYukon · Post by **FlyYukon** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:54 am

Bede, What they are saying is that why not log it? It may not be Transport Canada Certified towards your ATPL, but it is actual FO time you flew. Experience is experience, so log it all. Just be sure you have the proper certified hours when you go for your ATPL.

As far as I understand the issue, if a single pilto airplane is in the COM stated as a two crew aircraft, then you can log the hours, using half the accumulated time for your ATPL requirements.

FY

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:27 am

I might be wrong, but "FO" time on a single-pilot aircraft looks a lot like dual time from here.

Would you log FO time on a 172 or Cherokee 140? I hope not. Would you log dual, because you were learning from the PIC? Sure, why not.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:05 pm

There is something here that does not seem to be addressed, and that is the attitude of those who would log such time. They may actually think they can fly the plane. I used to let my kids "fly" from the right seat.

Particularily in more complex planes, there is much much more than simply being allowed to take off, cruise and land. There is systems management, emergency stuff, and, at the very least, treating the equipment properly. Not the kind of thing you learn riding around in the right seat,without some formal training.

There are some tragic cases on TSB's website of young pilots who flew around witha buddy, logged it, and then got hired by a company that did not check to carefully. All went well until something went a little sideways and people got killed.

Please, all you pilots starting careers. Get it straight that there is more to flying an airplane than playing with the controls and more to experience than writing it in your logbook.

FlyYukon · Post by **FlyYukon** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:11 pm

Yeah, I slightly, ineffectively, alluded to that TK.. as I said make sure you have certified time. I have sat right seat in a NAvajo, did takeoff and everything but land, and I dont count that as a lesson, just a neat intro of the ifr- multi world. There is no subsitute for real training, but you can learn practical stuff sitting right seat.
FY

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:53 pm

you can learn practical stuff sitting right seat

Hence the appropriateness of logging dual in the right seat of a single-pilot aircraft, when there is a qualified PIC in the left seat.

You're learning. That's nothing to be ashamed about. It's not a bad thing, honest, to learn about flying aircraft.

But are you required to be there? Not by the manufacturer's aircraft certification.

FlyYukon · Post by **FlyYukon** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:56 pm

You are by the COM, which is what Transport looks for.. point made, to me anyways, Hedley.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:06 pm

the COM, which is what Transport looks for

Maybe, but that's a slippery slope.

As you get older, you realize that just because something legal, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

For example, Transport might tell you that you are empowered to sexually molest small children. Given some of the people that work there, it wouldn't really surprise me very much.

Now, just because Transport says it's ok for you to sexually molest small children, does that mean you should?

As you get older, you realize that you have to figure out your own code of morals and ethics, that you will live by, regardless of where and when you happen to be.

I might suggest that Ottawa is perhaps not the best source of guidance on morals and ethics.

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:07 pm

I have a friend who logged 50 hours of multi-dual without a multi rating while working for a company and going along on the empty legs... he was sitting left seat the whole time that he logged it, doing all take-offs and landings and practicing some emergencies etc.

I know some instructors who say that doesn't count, but it's still experience right? What's your opinion?

Anti

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:37 pm

It would be good reading for some of you to read the accident report in Rainbow lake a few years back. A low time guy who worked in dispatch was given the oppertunity to go along in the RS of a Navajo. Before you know it the plane crashes.

I was in a low time situation once as well. Here's what I did: I did all the PA31 exams, studied the book and one day the CP took me along. On an empty leg, we did the PCC (all exercises), and then I was fully qualified to fly in the RS.

Remember, if you ever crash with a non PPC'd guy in the RS, you're going to hang.

trey kule · Post by **trey kule** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:59 pm

ANM wrote:

I know some instructors who say that doesn't count, but it's still experience right? What's your opinion?

I am not an instructor, but you will get my opinion anyway.
First , yes, as described it is good experience. The challange arises however when someone just rides around in the right seat and gets to play with the controls, and then claims the experience was the same as you described and wants to log it. There is no way to differentiate the two. Any reputable company will review your logbooks and may do things such as ask for proof of formal groundschool on type....no formal groundschool no counting the time.

I would also hope that TC guy posts on this topic as he is probably in a more knowledgable position to give an opinion on this type of training.

I am going to say it again, like a broken record, hoping someone will benefit...Time in a log book is a record of experience...not experience itself. And flight training should be dedicated. Not buck shee. Once there is a level of training being done, right seat time, logged or not , can be valuable. You are playing with your lives, and the lives of your passengers if you lie about your experience.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:42 pm

Trey, very well said.

Here's the accident report I was refering to:
http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/199 ... 8w0009.asp

2 pilot crew in a 1 pilot airplane

2 pilot crew in a 1 pilot airplane

Bede

Re: 2 pilot crew in a 1 pilot airplane

2 crew