Glen Valley - CYA126(A)

[JW]

Whenever someone tells me they're doing a forced approach into glenn vally international I die a little. There is no god damn airport, let alone a f***ing international airport. My favorite was the first few days the notam came out that the freq had changed, half the people are bombing around on 123.20 the rest on 122.75. Then people telling me that I'm on the wrong freq and to change to 123.20...I felt like telling them to check the notams before they shoe horn they're fat asses into a 152 and start telling me what to do.

JW

[laticsdave]

JW..
Too fuckin' right!!!
In fact, I think TC should create a new frequency for those who still believe that CYA126 is actually Crescent Island - 95.3MHz (should help cover up the soft shit they play! )
In addition, a discrete xponder code as well - let's give em 8888 !!!!!!! [/quote]

[Dog]

So you guys are all doing aerobatics then, not flight training?
See my other post.

[Hedley]

aerobics is how I got my buns of steel.

[Dog]

That was, and still is, a very fine terd cutter.

[JW]

So you guys are all doing arobatics then, not flight training?
See my other post.

Simulated forced approach is "arobatic"?

JW

[Dog]

"aerobatic manoeuvre" - means a manoeuvre where a change in the attitude of an aircraft results in a bank angle greater than 60 degrees, an abnormal attitude or an abnormal acceleration not incidental to normal flying; (acrobatie aérienne)

Aerobatic Manoeuvres - Prohibited Areas and Flight Conditions

602.27 No person operating an aircraft shall conduct aerobatic manoeuvres

(a) over a built-up area or an open-air assembly of persons;

(b) in controlled airspace, except in accordance with a special flight operations certificate issued pursuant to section 603.67;

(c) when flight visibility is less than three miles; or

(d) below 2,000 feet AGL, except in accordance with a special flight operations certificate issued pursuant to section 603.02 or 603.67.

So I would say "no".

And just be glad I don't call it acrobatic.

[JW]

Hey dog, are you saying you can't do flight training in advisory airspace?
If that is what your saying, can you explain why to me?

Dog said:

So you guys are all doing aerobatics then, not flight training?
See my other post.

AIM 2.8.6 Advisory Airspace: "VFR aircraft are, however, encouraged to aviod flight in advisory airspace unless participating in the activity (aerobatics) taking place therein."

JW

[FlyYukon]

What he is saying, is that Glenn Valley CYA126(a) , advisory for aerobatics, is NOT used for aerobatics, but everything else. When I do spins, we are usually well out of the way of Glenn Valley to avoid the other students doing slowflight, stalls, forced, percautionary etc...

[Dog]

Nope, I'm saying that if Glen Valley were a Training area it would be CYA 126 (T) for training and not (A) for aerobatics.

RAC 2.8.6 Part (d):

in the case of advisory areas, the letter A, F, H, M, P, S or T in brackets after the three-digit number will indicate the type of activity within the area as follows:
A –acrobatic
F –aircraft test area
H –hang gliding
M –military operations
P –parachuting
S –soaring
T –training

[Dog]

Hey FY,
You beat me to it. You'd be fine spinning to you're hearts content in Glen Valley as a spin by definition is aerobatic.

[FlyYukon]

Thats what I meant to say that you were saying... (a) for aerobatics, but to do aerobatics in cya126(a) is deadly

[JW]

Hey dog, I realize that CYA126 (a) is indicates that it is advisory airspace for acrobatics (says acrobatic in the AIM). Just because it's designated use is "acrobatic" doesn't mean that all other aircraft have to stay clear if they are not conducting "acrobatics"

RAC 2.8.6 Advisory Airspace.

There are no specific restrictions which apply to the use of advisory airspace. VFR aircraft are, however, encouraged to avoid flight in advisory airspace unless participating in the activity taking place therein. If necessary, pilots of non-participating flights may enter advisory areas at their own descretion; however, due to the nature of the aerial activity, extra vigilance is recommended. Pilots of participating aircraft, as well as pilots flying through the area are equally responsible for collision avoidance.

God I'm bored

JW

[Dog]

Nope, only that the should. It's called airmanship.

[JW]

Nope, only that the should. It's called airmanship.

Well I'm not saying that CYA 126(a) is the safest little chunk of airspace in the lower mainland for anything, I'd say far from it, so I agree with you on that point. I also agree that it is bad airmanship to blunder around any CYA (a). However from what I've heard on the radio out there most "training" flights i.e precautionary, forced approach, slow flight etc are actually taking place over Glen Valley, which is about a mile and a half North of CYA 126(a). That said wouldn't you think its worse airmanship to do aerobatics out of the designated airspace? Since most training flights are actually not directly in the airspace but just outside of it.Another bit of bad airmanship would be that people actually think that Glen Valley is in CYA 126(a), most people think it goes right up to the river. I've seen aircraft perform aerobatic's actually over Glen Valley which is clearly north of CYA 126(a). The real crime here is that most people believe Glen Valley and CYA 126(a) are the same thing, when they are clearly not. Glen Valley, class E airspace. CYA 126(a) Canada advisory "acrobatic" airspace.

JW
ps, I'm not trying to start a pissing match just bored cause I can't fly today because of this shit west coast wx.

[PC12's are better]

OUCH, that one hurt


insert pissing match here,
I'm sure that everyone went to their VTA to look at that one!!
Nice one C

[Dog]

OUCH, that one hurt

Didn't hurt me... I've got my back up when it comes to advisory airspace. It's probably the most often abused airspace going. I'm a skydiver/jump pilot (well at least I used to be) and I will not jump at DZs in unconrolled airspace for exactly that reason. The DZs in Chilliwack and Matsqui are a good example: go there on any active jump day and watch how many planes cruise right on through there. Nobody is good enough to see every 200lb meat bomb coming out of the sky at anywhere from 120 to 200 mph. The consiquenses of that sort of lack in airmanship should be obvious.

That said wouldn't you think its worse airmanship to do aerobatics out of the designated airspace?

No.

The real crime here is that most people believe Glen Valley and CYA 126(a) are the same thing, when they are clearly not.

You can sleep easier knowing that I can read a map. In fact if you go back to yours you'll find that the majority of Glen Valley lies within CYA 126 as the boudary is roughly Gray Road/84th Ave. But that's really splitting hairs. My point was that the student pilots (and there instructors for that matter) are likley unaware that it is not actually a "training area" is it's most commonly reffered to on the blower. I've actually had people tell me to leave the area so they can do training. The plane I was flying burns more gas doing a runup than the it takes to fill a 152. I know it's not true of everybody that flys out of ZBB, but I've had my fill of the know-it-all types that seem to inhabit the place. If I sound snappy it's becasue I'm exersizing the law of effect.

God speed brave instructors of Glen Valley!

[JW]

You can sleep easier knowing that I can read a map. In fact if you go back to yours you'll find that the majority of Glen Valley lies within CYA 126 as the boudary is roughly Gray Road/84th Ave. But that's really splitting hairs. My point was that the student pilots (and there instructors for that matter) are likley unaware that it is not actually a "training area" is it's most commonly reffered to on the blower.

Its funny because we're both saying virtually the same thing, but when I do go back and look at my VTA I see none of Glen Valley in CYA 126(A). I'll do simulated forced approaches, and various other exercises there because I know it is out of CYA 126(A) and I'll do spins, spirals, and even stalls in CYA 126(A) because most stalls with student pilots actually can end up in some sort of aerobatic state. The reason why I'll stick to Glen Valley, and Pitt lake for that matter, is I'm not going to teach my student pilots to go around this busy airspace in the lower mainland splitting the hairs that seperate various control zones to practice a forced approach in between Langley and Surrey over some golf course. Glen Valley is busy, Pitt Lake is busy, the airspace is tight everywhere. So dog I'll just ask you this because I sincerely mean it, where else would you go? I go south all I can towards cherry point, but a student pilot can't go that way solo because its in US airspace. Going south has another bunch of problems with Victoria terminal airspace being right there as well. As you know the airspace is busy here, nothing we can do about it except try to find a chunk of sky to share with responsible pilots, pilots who communicate clearly, check NOTAM, and can read a map. I agree with you Dog, instructors need to stop saying "glen valley practice area" as this does not exist, however on a busy day CYA 126(A) and Glen Valley needs to be shared with student pilots, aerobatics, and weekend warriors heading up the CYCW for pie simply because on a busy day there is not enough responsible airspace for everyone with in a 20min flight from their airport. I appreciate constructive advise for me to help make the lower mainland airspace a little safer, as should every responsible instructor/pilot.

JW

[SkyWolfe]

*sits down with some popcorn* Im waiting for the bloodshed now.

[Dog]

I'm not arguing that Vancouver is busy. That's why I moved away after all. But when people are using the aerobatic area for aerobatics then other aircraft should remain clear. Just as people flying aerobatics should remain clear of training areas and so on. There is no good reason for anyone to bowl through an alert area when they could stay clear for safety. It's just good airmanship. I sympathise with you about the congested airspace but that is a drawback to training around a major TCA. If you think it's bad here you should check out Toronto. To avoid the "20 min flight" people choose to take there training elsewhere. It's just a crappy fact of life.
I would think twice about not using terminal airspace as it's an excellent area for increased safety. Along with giving your student some experience in an IFR enviroment. Granted Vancouver TCA is often too busy to accept VFR traffic, but the Victoria (Cherry Point, Boundary Bay, Bellingham etc.)sectors are usually unresticted and will provide traffic alerting services workload permitting. The 49th parellel is a bummer for your unlicenced students but for everyone else its a good alternative.

[JW]

I'm glad you and I are on the same page here dog

JW wrote:

I also agree that it is bad airmanship to blunder around any CYA (a)

Dog wrote:

There is no good reason for anyone to bowl through an alert area when they could stay clear for safety.

JW wrote

:I'll do simulated forced approaches, and various other exercises there because I know it is out of CYA 126(A) and I'll do spins, spirals, and even stalls in CYA 126(A) because most stalls with student pilots actually can end up in some sort of aerobatic state.

Dog wrote:

But when people are using the aerobatic area for aerobatics then other aircraft should remain clear. Just as people flying aerobatics should remain clear of training areas and so on.

The only problem with all of this is that its not so black and white. In and around Vancouver there is CYA 126, 127, and 128. All of which are (A) with the exception of CYA 128 (A)(H). So where is a person to do flight training if we have to stay clear of these advisory airspaces because there is no (T)? Dodging control zones and looking for random fields below? I'm sure terminal would have a field day with all the VFR training aircraft moving in if everyone went to cherry point. Check the local NOTAM and 9 times out of 10 there is a restriction on VFR traffic entering Vancouver class C airspace. The other thing I wonder is how fair it is to have 3 advisory airspaces designated for aerobatics? How much aerobatic traffic is there compared to flight training? Don't you think it would be wise to change one of these advisory airspaces into CYA (T)? So until there is a designated (T) I guess we'll all just have to get along.


JW

[Dog]

I'm not sure how long you've been around "the Bay" but there used to be a CYA (T) 125 that has gone the way of the Dodo bird. It was in the Cloverdale/Fries Corner area and went down to Grandview. It was right in between Langley and Boundry Bay so nice and easy to get to. I'm not sure what the rational was to get rid of it, I know there was a growing number of noise complaints. I agree that there should be a designated training area as that is the majority of activity in those areas. I can't help but think that it hasn't been done to avoid liability on TCs part as there was a fatal mid-air in CYA 125 after everyone complaning about how congested it was.
Just to clear it up, Vancouver TCA is often resricted but Victoria often is not.
By insisting on "sharing" the aerobatic areas with training aircraft, you are effectively shutting the aerobats down. (I'm not talking about training that meets the definition of aerobatic.) Would you feel safe working a couple thousand feet of airspace doing up to 200kts while trying to keep track of a number of training aircraft? It sure seems black and white to me (my world is really a nice place to live): A is for Acrobatic!

[JW]

I've been around for a while and I remember CYA 125(T), it was shut down because of noise, congestion, and a fatal mid air. Maybe the solution is to change two of the CYA (A)'s in vancouver to (T)'s and leave one for aerobatics, since I know for a fact there is a lot more training flights going on then aerobatic.

JW

[threegreen]

Rational for closing training airspace between YNJ and ZBB = fatal mid-air.

The strange thing is that why in all these years of training and ZBB reopening and the increasing number of training airplanes in the area why is there no training airspace? It would be as simple to add a (T) to the end of the CYA as well as the (A). And is there really a need for two acrobatic airspaces for when the YXX air show comes once a year? Even during the show no airplane that participates in the show stays inside that airspace. The TCA gets such a hardon for the fancy airplanes they will let them fly wherever they want and divert everybody else. Furthermore it is not against regulations for training to occur in the advisory airspace. 126 also goes up to 5500 (or is it 4500?) feet and when was the last time you heard anybody above 3500? If you're in the mood for aerobatics just head up higher.

Until there is training airspace and a tower reporting traffic to you every 15 seconds I guess it will be "Glen valley traffic G*** doing spins..." Neat.

Look up, waaaayyy up. See and avoid and practice collision avoidance turns.

[PC12's are better]

I'm looking at this in a different way,

what is the average aerobatic aircraft in the box, christian eagle, pitts, occasionally a sukoi. they cruise at what 150 kts.
send them down to the cherry point area. they can work all they want at 4500' and with victoria terminal. thye are more experienced and should be able to handle the radios, leave glen valley, pitt meadows and sumas to the rest of us.

we can not establish airspace down there, thats for the FAA to screw up. however personally that should be the best solution. compared to the average training flight, they are legally allowed to fly there. they can get there quicker than the rest of us and they can work the radios better as well as the typical student.

any thoughts, intelligent prefered!!