Glen Valley - CYA126(A)

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:14 am

I agree with the fact that there needs to be designated training airsapce in the Vancouver area. That does not, however, excuse pilots for using the existing designated airspace at their whim when other pilots are using it for it's designated purpose. That's like parking in a hadicap spot and refusing to move when an entitled person shows up to use it.

I suggest you lobby for change in airspace. I'm tired of the "I'll interpret the rules to suit me rather than bother to try and change them" attitude. I think it's a root cause a vast number of problems in our society in general.
You can split hairs when it comes to "should", but the fact is you are missinterpreting the regulation to suit your needs.

Here are some other numbers to think about before you complain about flying a 10g/h trainer an extra .2:
T-28b: Special C of A or flight permit (flight into the US by permmision only), 56g/h@200kts, operating cost: roughly $1000/sortie.

As far as TC closing CYA 125 because of the mid-air: That's like curing the headache by cutting of the head...

PC12's are better · Post by **PC12's are better** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:07 pm

as far as using airspace for what it was designated for. if you go to the mall. there are hundreds of parking spots for each handicapped spot. use that analogy. there are 3 areas around vancouver that one could use for training but it isn't designated as such. instead it's for aerobatics. there are how many aerobatic aircraft in the lower mainland? 10-15 max. how many trainers? 50-60 that fly on a fairly regular schedule? you do the math.

if you put out a petition to change the airspace I'd be happy to sign it.

Don't whine about the 1000/sortie that it costs to fly the 28, that was your choice of aircraft, no one made it for you. next thing you know we'll start to see the military using theis area for training. they spend much more per flight than you. then your $1000 sortie will have to go somewhere else.

Or maybe stay in qualicum beach. I'm sure you could find some airspace out there to use.
go look for a CYA(P)
ie. Pissed off!!

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 9:32 pm

Did you even read the last post?

Don't drink and post... take it from one who knows.

JW · Post by JW » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:06 pm

there are hundreds of parking spots for each handicapped spot. use that analogy.

That is a very good point. I guess people that want to learn how to fly should go to the island where its legal...Oh wait, there is no CYA (T) there either. I don't think I can find a single CYA (T) on the Vancouver VTA, guess no flight training then.

JW

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:36 pm

Aw crap, guess I'm out of a job!

But seriously, keep a bloody good look out, keep your ears open, and don't fly like a dick .... and then the (A)'s & the (T)'s can all get on together (cue mamby pamby, feel-good music).

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:39 pm

Maybe CAT can use this "unsafe" flying environment against TC - after all, they're expecting us to give SAFE flight training, but without giving us a safe place to do it! Hmmm, sounds like a SonicBlue situation.....

JW · Post by JW » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:58 pm

But seriously, keep a bloody good look out, keep your ears open, and don't fly like a dick .... and then the (A)'s & the (T)'s can all get on together (cue mamby pamby, feel-good music).

Can't we all just get along???

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:35 am

Just to move the topic away from the "training versus aerobatics" debate, well at least for a nanosecond....
Heard an interesting position call yesterday from the Bell gasbag operating out of CZBB. The blimp reported "over 1088 hill". Excellent. A new, easy to identify location for all Glen Valley fliers to make reference to in their position reports .... and just like Crescent Island, it's outside of CYA 126(A).
"Glen Valley Traffic, Cherokee FAGZ (gotta love that call sign!!!!!), 2 miles east of 1088 hill at 3000 feet, not doing aerobatics!"

(1088 hill is just north of CBQ2).

Anyone feel like designating a "1088 hill" radio call day???? Should really make things interesting in CYA 126(A) as all the newbie pilots panic, open their VTA's for the first time, look on the map in the vacinity of YVR for said reference point! Lets see if Darwin was right with his survival of the fittest theory!!

JW · Post by JW » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:54 am

haha, maybe...if the wx is good enough to get out there.

JW

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:10 am

I'll say it slower this time so everyone here might understand it:
A e r o b a t i c a r e a s a r e f o r a e r o b a t i c s. T r a i n i n g a n d a e r o b a t i c s d o n o t n e e d t o b e d o n e i n d e s i g n a t e d a i r s p a c e.

I shudder to think that some of the people writing these posts are licensed to teach people how to fly. At the very least some of you have demonstrated a utter lack of a working knowledge of the regulations of your profession, at the best; pathetic airmanship.

Have any of you actually flown anywhere besides instructing? I think I'll go argue with my six-year-old.... it's more advanced that what's going on here.

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:40 am

I'll say it slower this time so everyone here might understand it:
A e r o b a t i c a r e a s a r e f o r a e r o b a t i c s. T r a i n i n g a n d a e r o b a t i c s d o n o t n e e d t o b e d o n e i n d e s i g n a t e d a i r s p a c e.

I shudder to think that some of the people writing these posts are licensed to teach people how to fly. At the very least some of you have demonstrated a utter lack of a working knowledge of the regulations of your profession, at the best; pathetic airmanship.

Have any of you actually flown anywhere besides instructing? I think I'll go argue with my six-year-old.... it's more advanced that what's going on here.

Maybe you should get out of the mega busy CAT4 and come and try instructing in the peaceful, empty skies of the Lower Mainland.
You try and find airspace around here that you can safely teach low level exercises to your students in (that isn't a 40 minute round trip from the airport) that isn't down some narrow mountain valley, over a built up area, in a control zone or Class C airspace, or in US airspace, and that doesn't piss off someone who feels that the world owes them and their fuckin airplane a living. Successfully do that and I'll admit that you are Master Of The Universe - until them, FOAD!!!!!!!

Go read the CAR's yourself - maybe YOU need a refresher!!!!!!!

JW · Post by JW » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:08 am

A e r o b a t i c a r e a s a r e f o r a e r o b a t i c s. T r a i n i n g a n d a e r o b a t i c s d o n o t n e e d t o b e d o n e i n d e s i g n a t e d a i r s p a c e.

I thought I uderstood what you were saying before but now you have me confused...You want CYA 126(A) for your aerobatic training, which is great because it is designated (A). But now you also want to do aerobatics outside of the designated area? How much fucking airspace do you need mate? Is that what your saying? Cause if so, thats some airmanship alright.

JW

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:34 am

Quote:
A e r o b a t i c a r e a s a r e f o r a e r o b a t i c s. T r a i n i n g a n d a e r o b a t i c s d o n o t n e e d t o b e d o n e i n d e s i g n a t e d a i r s p a c e.

I thought I uderstood what you were saying before but now you have me confused...You want CYA 126(A) for your aerobatic training, which is great because it is designated (A). But now you also want to do aerobatics outside of the designated area? How much fucking airspace do you need mate? Is that what your saying? Cause if so, thats some airmanship alright.

JW

Nice one!

Kenny G · Post by **Kenny G** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:05 pm

Well done JW

I thought CYA was for "Advisory" airspace. Therefore CYA 126 (A) is Advising pilots that in that airspace there could be aerobatics. This is not telling them to say away, that would be CYR (restricted).

The bottom line is, CYA 126 (A) is advising pilots of aerobatics not restricting pilots to do aerobatics or not to do aerobatics.

Happy flying in death vally! aka The Glenn Vally "hit me" Area

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:55 pm

I haven't said in any of my posts that training aircraft need to stay out of an aerobatic alert area all the time. Simply that if someone is using the area for aerobatics that they should respect that that is what the airspace is designated for and remain clear. Are you honestly arguing against that?

Maybe you should get out of the mega busy CAT4 and come and try instructing in the peaceful, empty skies of the Lower Mainland.

That's pretty funny. I spent ten years flying out of YVR ( and many other major centres in North America, Miami for example). If you're intimidated by flying VFR in the lower mainland perhaps lawn bowling would be a safer career choice for you.

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:22 am

http://www.warddraw.com/STOCK/Animals/c ... 135WS.html

PC12's are better · Post by **PC12's are better** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:23 am

you know it's funny,

You must find it pretty hard to maintain VFR with your head stuffed so far up your own ass. no wonder you require so much damned airspace to do your airwork.

you mentiioned that

"I spent ten years flying out of YVR ( and many other major centres in North America, Miami for example). If you're intimidated by flying VFR in the lower mainland perhaps lawn bowling would be a safer career choice for you."

it's not the busy airspace that's the problem. it's the assholes that decide that they can go and blast around the lower mainlan without any respect for the people who were here first, at 180kts in a T28 or sukhoi etc. without any thought whatsoever about everyone elses safety just because they are doing aerobatics within their very own aerobatics airspace

Simply that if someone is using the area for aerobatics that they should respect that that is what the airspace is designated for and remain clear. Are you honestly arguing against that?

You're damned right I am

next thing that you'll want is that there be a TFR set up around any airspace that you are working in at any time you wish to work. Too Friggin bad

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:56 am

That's pretty funny. I spent ten years flying out of YVR ( and many other major centres in North America, Miami for example). If you're intimidated by flying VFR in the lower mainland perhaps lawn bowling would be a safer career choice for you.

I'm not intimidated by flying VFR anywhere.....what I'm concerned with is sending a 20 hour student out into airspace that he is:
1) unfamiliar with - because we keep having to fly in different areas because in an attempt to placate the very small percantage of aerobatic fliers who believe that they, and only they, should have access to the CYA (A)'s.
2) not really suitable for the purpose of the flight he/she is doing - because we keep having to fly in different areas because in an attempt to placate the very small percantage of aerobatic fliers who believe that they, and only they, should have access to the CYA (A)'s.

Maybe you can try and remember what it was like when you were a new student pilot - for some students, finding the airport at the end of a solo flight is a big achievement (and a big relief!). Being familiar with their location in the early hours of their solo training is very important - it's better for them that they be allowed to concentrate more on improving their skills than trying to find a suitable piece of airspace that doesn't break more regs than they can recall, and isn't already full of similarly inexperienced pilots who are trying to work in that area in an attempt to stay clear of the CYA (A)'s.
Additionally, a lot of FTU's will dictate in their SOP's what area(s) their students are allowed to fly solo in - their's sod all to be gained in teaching a student dual in one area (eg. over the Strait near Birch Bay/Cherry Point), and then sending them off somewhere totally different to practice solo.

Finally - lawn green bowling is too scary for me - I'll stick to tiddly-winks!

JW · Post by JW » Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:02 pm

Lawn bowling is fun with some cold beers,on a hot summer day,while looking at girls....Summer is almost here.

JW

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:11 pm

PC12's are better wrote:it's not the busy airspace that's the problem. it's the assholes that decide that they can go and blast around the lower mainlan without any respect for the people who were here first, at 180kts in a T28 or sukhoi etc. without any thought whatsoever about everyone elses safety just because they are doing aerobatics within their very own aerobatics airspace

Geeze, I've been flying in the lower mainland since 1985. Does that make you the asshole? It's funny that you'd think I'm not concerend about people's safety... at work they call me "Mr. Safety"

Otter envy · Post by **Otter envy** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:03 am

Is that the sound of someone back tracking at 180 kts......yup it is. Bottom line is that there are far more initial students in the lower mainland than there are aerobatic pilots. Go to abbotsford, they like that stuff there.

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:54 am

You guys can misinterpret my posts and the air regs faster than a coked out evangelist caught with a midget hooker interprets the bible.

For the record: I stand by what I've said all along. I feel that it's clear that the meaning of the regulations supports it. That aerobatic aircraft using CYA (A) airspace should have "right of way" over aircraft using it for other purposes.
I haven't said:
(a) that CYA (A) airspace must be exclusively used for aerobatics
(b) that there is not a lack of designated training airspace in the Vancouver area
(c) that anyone could use any excuses for a lack of vigilance while flying.
You guys have come up with that on your own.

If any of you had met me in person you'd know I'm a very courteous, professional pilot. It's how I've supported my family for ten years. I've also been down the lower mainland instructor road before, so I'm sympathetic to what your dealing with. I don't do much aerobatics any more other than the odd roll now and then so I'm not personally motivated to protect the (a) areas we're talking about. I'm interested in seeing that the next generation of pilots are taught basic airmanship.

If any of you would like to support what your saying with a reference, I'll debate it further with you. The mud slinging is getting boring, however. It seems obvious to me that you're choosing to make up your own interpretations of airmanship based solely on your own needs. Until they decide to pay instructors a descent wage, the cycle of 200hr pilot instructing others will probably continue to propagate the problem as there is little real-world experience penetrating the ZBB bubble. I'll say this, and it's nothing against you guys in particular: Boundary Bay has a very unhealthy aviation culture. It's had decades people hangar flying over a Star Trek burger and a Coke inventing their own aviation reality. The majority of people teaching there have little other experience outside of that role (there are exceptions). I can assure you that many of the highest priorities as seen in that world aren't even on the radar elsewhere in the very big world of aviation.

If you're truly interested in safety why don't you all get together and petition TC to change some airspace to "T" and solve the issue the correct way. Moreover it would protect you from liability in case, god forbid, there is an accident between an aerobat and a student misusing airspace at your recommendation. That is, of course, if your motivation is really to do things right.

In flying I have learned that carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks.

— Wilbur Wright in a letter to his father, September 1900.

PC12, you should calm down or you'll be headed for the big jammer. You sound madder than a three legged dog tying to bury a terd on a frozen lake.

JW · Post by JW » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:13 am

Glen Valley is not in CYA 126(A). Neither isthe river. I would say that %90 of the flights that I see and hear out there training give calls with reference to crescent island, again not in CYA 126(A). That is why this thread was started. Come on, not all the people posting this are from CZBB either, so why try to sit at home and bash us as politically correct as possible. Sure there are a lot of people doing training in CYA 126(A), but there are also a butt load of people doing aerobatics over Glen Valley and the river. I've watched countless aerobatics right over crescent island. Telling me that I interpret the air regs so that it benefits me is like the kettle calling the pot black, your doing the exact same thing. If some one is heading out to CYA 126(A) to do aerobatics should I give them the advisory area plus say 5 miles in every direction around it, cause they're airmanship is so good they don't stay in the designated area?

JW

laticsdave · Post by **laticsdave** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:51 am

If you're truely intersested in safety why don't you all get together and petition TC to change some airspace to "T" and solve the issue the correct way. Moreover it would protect you from liability in case, god forbid, there is an accident between an aerobat and a student missusing airspace at your recommendation. That is, of course, if your motivation is realy to do things right.

Was actually thinking of that on my drive in to work.....must be an X-Files thingy goin' on.

Anyway, actually petitioning TC is a good idea (might be like pissing into the wind at the end of the day), but I'd be interested to see how THEY interpret their own regs in an effort to do bugger all.... so.....

1) does anyone know which TC dept to petition about changing CYA useage;
2) any good ideas on how to go about it/ e.g. - bombard TC with "standard, identically worded" e-mails or get a central petition going - maybe as a thread on aavcanada?

Dog · Post by **Dog** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:41 am

JW,
You sound madder than a skin-head watching the Jefferson's. You too could be headed for the Big Jammer unless you learn to relax; maybe you should leave the big smoke for somewhere less stressful. Take deep breaths and think of your happy place.

What is a "butt load" anyway, is that something that was given to you while you where in jail? I used to be mad like you when I drove in that shit traffic every day. One day you will make a fine Air Canada employee.
I hate to split hairs, but Glen Valley the checkpoint is not in area 126, Glen Valley the geographic area is half in area 126.

Hey Dave, I'd sign you petition, let me know when you get it going.