With increased fuel expenses, competition and demand for low seat prices, the airline push these days is for pay concessions from it's top level income earners(pilots).
Is it realistic to expect that same philosophy to be carried over to the ATS system and Nav Canada who also operate a fiscally challenged organization rather than place higher costs on the users?
Nav Canada pay cuts??
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
I was waiting for this one to come. The idea does have it's merits. I mean take money away from ATS therefore lowering NC's overhead which is passed onto the users. But there are two arguements i have to this one.
1:) Supply and demand. Meaning that you can train most people to be a pilot (no this isn't a shot at pilots, you have as much if not more responsibility as any ATS). With time and patince most peolpe can be taught to fly a plane. For those poor souls in ATS we are blessed with a gift that only a small fraction of the population have ....Spatial reasoning, detail oriented, motivated etc. Plus throw in the complexity of our work enviroment and the level we have to operate at and you have our job. Therefore only that fraction of the population has the neccesary skills to do what we do, no amount of training and patience is going to make someone without the skills successful at the job. So we get paid for what we know and what we do.
2:) Safety & efficiency. Say NC manages to talk the unions into lowering there wages 20% like many of the good people at AC took to save the company. The users, aka. you the flying public and weekend warriors get cheaper NC fees. SO a lot of the ATS folk are upset and take jobs elsewhere, the number of qualified trainees drops since why go through the suffering of years of training and lifetime of stress for 15 bucks an hour. We have less people in the workforce, less people available to train them and a mumbly grumbly lot working more and harder since the bodies just aren't there to fill the seats.
This translates into longer waits in holds or on the ground or in termnal airspace since there is less people to work more planes making life for you fellas on the pointy end of the sword a lot more difficult, long and annoying. Not to mention that the costs in extra fuel, maintenance, delayed passengers etc etc. So in the end with less money, less ATS folk it may cost mroe for you in the long run.
I see the reasonign behind this post and i doubt many pilots are gonna agree with me but i think it would be more of a hinderance than a help. I mean sure we are well paid but we are safe and as efficient as the sytem allows, NC is developing new equipment to make life easier for everyone and we have some of the lowest ANS fees in the world. This post could easily be about going to the kings of Saud to produce more oil so the fuel prices go down? Is that gonna happen no, do i wish it would? Paying 1.35 a liter here in Churchill you bet. just my take, feel free to rip it apart now! Cheers!
1:) Supply and demand. Meaning that you can train most people to be a pilot (no this isn't a shot at pilots, you have as much if not more responsibility as any ATS). With time and patince most peolpe can be taught to fly a plane. For those poor souls in ATS we are blessed with a gift that only a small fraction of the population have ....Spatial reasoning, detail oriented, motivated etc. Plus throw in the complexity of our work enviroment and the level we have to operate at and you have our job. Therefore only that fraction of the population has the neccesary skills to do what we do, no amount of training and patience is going to make someone without the skills successful at the job. So we get paid for what we know and what we do.
2:) Safety & efficiency. Say NC manages to talk the unions into lowering there wages 20% like many of the good people at AC took to save the company. The users, aka. you the flying public and weekend warriors get cheaper NC fees. SO a lot of the ATS folk are upset and take jobs elsewhere, the number of qualified trainees drops since why go through the suffering of years of training and lifetime of stress for 15 bucks an hour. We have less people in the workforce, less people available to train them and a mumbly grumbly lot working more and harder since the bodies just aren't there to fill the seats.
This translates into longer waits in holds or on the ground or in termnal airspace since there is less people to work more planes making life for you fellas on the pointy end of the sword a lot more difficult, long and annoying. Not to mention that the costs in extra fuel, maintenance, delayed passengers etc etc. So in the end with less money, less ATS folk it may cost mroe for you in the long run.
I see the reasonign behind this post and i doubt many pilots are gonna agree with me but i think it would be more of a hinderance than a help. I mean sure we are well paid but we are safe and as efficient as the sytem allows, NC is developing new equipment to make life easier for everyone and we have some of the lowest ANS fees in the world. This post could easily be about going to the kings of Saud to produce more oil so the fuel prices go down? Is that gonna happen no, do i wish it would? Paying 1.35 a liter here in Churchill you bet. just my take, feel free to rip it apart now! Cheers!
FSS: puting the Service back in Flight Services....
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wha happen
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lilfssister
- Rank Moderator
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yes i am, ask me to do something above and beyond the call of duty next time you fly into churchill or any other airport for that matter and likely the FSS on duty will be happy to do it. Like i've said before if you don;t like the service you get please post your complaints to NC customer Service, i'd be more than happy to prove i do everything in my job description and a lot more! Cheers.co-joe wrote:Aren't you already working to rule as it is bigfssguy?
FSS: puting the Service back in Flight Services....
Big FSS guy.
Not going to rip your post apart. You make some fair points.
What concerns me however (and I stand to be corrected) FSS types were selected primarily on ability and spent a far greater deal of time in training. Nowadays it seems the abilityis secondary to the canidates ability to pay the training fees and support themselves. The result I see is that the new FSS types starting under supervision are very very inexperienced....and I am not sure that all the costs of supervision and the resulting overtime have to negate some of the cost savings.
Perhaps it is time to get back to the old way...less overtime would result in significant cost savings and would allow for fair pay for all of you.
Just as an aside. In forty years of flying I have, until last week had nothing but the most helpful things from FSS. Way beyond the call of duty.
Last week however we asked a local FSS if they would call us a cab as we were 20 minutes out...and they said no. Apparently to many bad experiences...I know this is above and beyond FSS duties but it is the first time.....
Anyway, I dont know y our pay scales or if they should be more or less, but you folks do a good job, particularily when you work for av-nay anada-cay.
Not going to rip your post apart. You make some fair points.
What concerns me however (and I stand to be corrected) FSS types were selected primarily on ability and spent a far greater deal of time in training. Nowadays it seems the abilityis secondary to the canidates ability to pay the training fees and support themselves. The result I see is that the new FSS types starting under supervision are very very inexperienced....and I am not sure that all the costs of supervision and the resulting overtime have to negate some of the cost savings.
Perhaps it is time to get back to the old way...less overtime would result in significant cost savings and would allow for fair pay for all of you.
Just as an aside. In forty years of flying I have, until last week had nothing but the most helpful things from FSS. Way beyond the call of duty.
Last week however we asked a local FSS if they would call us a cab as we were 20 minutes out...and they said no. Apparently to many bad experiences...I know this is above and beyond FSS duties but it is the first time.....
Anyway, I dont know y our pay scales or if they should be more or less, but you folks do a good job, particularily when you work for av-nay anada-cay.
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polythene_pam
- Rank 1
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:27 pm
I'd say b) infrastructure. It's REALLY expensive, especially in a country as vast as Canada. consider the money it takes to run just one FSS. There's the buildings, the communications network, the towers, the computer tech, the radar feeds, the backup systems, the weather equipment....where is the money going? Big fat paycheques? Infrastructure? offshore accounts? I'd like to know.
Pension is becoming quite an expense as well. ATC labour is fairly expensive, and rightfully so. IFR ATC in particular is a job that only a very, very small fraction of the population is even capable of performing. Many lawyers, engineers, commercial pilots, even fss and vfr atc has been ct'ed out of ifr atc courses. I've yet to meet a pilot with enough money who has not at least got his CPL (one guy took 160 hours to solo, but he did it!). Point is, ATC deserve every penny they get. They have a rare skill that's in demand. Sorry, but pilots are a dime a dozen. I know some complete idiots who somehow, after grit and determination, are now working for AC. scary but true. Not many complete idiots manage to check out at a centre, terminal, or tower.
FSS make peanuts, especially considering then they sign up they are saying that they are willing to go to iqualuit or inuvik at the whim of their company. Sure, many pilots have done it, but at least then it's your choice. If you don't want to fly there, you can go look for a flying job elsewhere. FSS can't just go put out some resumes and try to find an fss job closer to home.
I suppose, though, if you'd like to bellyache about navcanada fees and ask ridiculous questions about where the money goes, you probably are too busy complaining to actually really think about your own question. If you'd look around and consider the expense of the services you enjoy, you may find that you're not getting a bad deal at all.
I'm sorry but that is so out there it's not even funny. The failure rate at the better aviation colleges is as high or greater than the navcanada facilities. So I'd dare say that if you're using failure rates to determine what percentage of canadian population can do any job than pilot would be up there too. How many hundrerds fail the seneca/sault entrace exams before they even have a chance to fail out during the flying/classroom portion.bigfssguy wrote:
1:) Supply and demand. Meaning that you can train most people to be a pilot (no this isn't a shot at pilots, you have as much if not more responsibility as any ATS). With time and patince most peolpe can be taught to fly a plane. For those poor souls in ATS we are blessed with a gift that only a small fraction of the population have ....Spatial reasoning, detail oriented, motivated etc. Plus throw in the complexity of our work enviroment and the level we have to operate at and you have our job. Therefore only that fraction of the population has the neccesary skills to do what we do, no amount of training and patience is going to make someone without the skills successful at the job. So we get paid for what we know and what we do.
Now I totally agree that the supply demand thing is true. Training your own people totally controls the supply. Always training just enough to keep everyone in overtime keeps you in demand. If the training was to go public and allow colleges to offer certified training you would very quickly see your job become as poorly paying as ours.
While I agree that most ATC/FSS people are good and I deal with a lot of excellant ones here in the YVR area, the controllers and FSS out here deal with a far more complex mix of traffic than anywhere else I know of. IFR, VFR, Floatplanes, Helicopters and this week, a Blimp make it a challenge for them. Having so many different airspaces so close together and 3 parallel runways at YVR (counting the river)don't help either, but they pull it off and often have a great sense of humour (which is appreciated) while they are doing it.
I do however know for a fact that some of the people in the background of ATC are WAY overpaid. Like when I phone for a squak code from the YVR ACC, the person who gives it to me makes (in two examples that I can prove) in the neighbourhood of $67,000/year!!!!
This is basically a glorified clerical job!!! I just don't see how those kind of wages for that kind of a job can be justified. Yes these people have other duties than just issuing codes, but, checking flightplans and inputting data sure don't add up to that much money in my books.
Most controllers and FSS people earn their money, but just because they make a good wage, doesn't mean the support staff should get overpaid.. It's OUR money!!!
I do however know for a fact that some of the people in the background of ATC are WAY overpaid. Like when I phone for a squak code from the YVR ACC, the person who gives it to me makes (in two examples that I can prove) in the neighbourhood of $67,000/year!!!!
This is basically a glorified clerical job!!! I just don't see how those kind of wages for that kind of a job can be justified. Yes these people have other duties than just issuing codes, but, checking flightplans and inputting data sure don't add up to that much money in my books. Most controllers and FSS people earn their money, but just because they make a good wage, doesn't mean the support staff should get overpaid.. It's OUR money!!!
bigfssguy wrote:I was waiting for this one to come. The idea does have it's merits. I mean take money away from ATS therefore lowering NC's overhead which is passed onto the users. But there are two arguements i have to this one.
1:) Supply and demand. Meaning that you can train most people to be a pilot (no this isn't a shot at pilots, you have as much if not more responsibility as any ATS). With time and patince most peolpe can be taught to fly a plane. For those poor souls in ATS we are blessed with a gift that only a small fraction of the population have ....Spatial reasoning, detail oriented, motivated etc. Plus throw in the complexity of our work enviroment and the level we have to operate at and you have our job. Therefore only that fraction of the population has the neccesary skills to do what we do, no amount of training and patience is going to make someone without the skills successful at the job. So we get paid for what we know and what we do.
2:) Safety & efficiency. Say NC manages to talk the unions into lowering there wages 20% like many of the good people at AC took to save the company. The users, aka. you the flying public and weekend warriors get cheaper NC fees. SO a lot of the ATS folk are upset and take jobs elsewhere, the number of qualified trainees drops since why go through the suffering of years of training and lifetime of stress for 15 bucks an hour. We have less people in the workforce, less people available to train them and a mumbly grumbly lot working more and harder since the bodies just aren't there to fill the seats.
This translates into longer waits in holds or on the ground or in termnal airspace since there is less people to work more planes making life for you fellas on the pointy end of the sword a lot more difficult, long and annoying. Not to mention that the costs in extra fuel, maintenance, delayed passengers etc etc. So in the end with less money, less ATS folk it may cost mroe for you in the long run.
I see the reasonign behind this post and i doubt many pilots are gonna agree with me but i think it would be more of a hinderance than a help. I mean sure we are well paid but we are safe and as efficient as the sytem allows, NC is developing new equipment to make life easier for everyone and we have some of the lowest ANS fees in the world. This post could easily be about going to the kings of Saud to produce more oil so the fuel prices go down? Is that gonna happen no, do i wish it would? Paying 1.35 a liter here in Churchill you bet. just my take, feel free to rip it apart now! Cheers!
Did you get attacked by a polar bear or something or is your brain just frozen??
[quote="trey kule"]
Just as an aside. In forty years of flying I have, until last week had nothing but the most helpful things from FSS. Way beyond the call of duty.
Last week however we asked a local FSS if they would call us a cab as we were 20 minutes out...and they said no. Apparently to many bad experiences...I know this is above and beyond FSS duties but it is the first time.....
quote]
trey;
Yes this happens where you have some guys that refuse to do anyhting above and beyond what is stated in Manobs. This is totally within there rights, do i agree with them....No. It comes down to customer service. If we do something to help you like call a taxi, order a pizza (yes that happens from time to time) it only helps to foster positive ATS/Pilot relations. Most of the pilots i talk to on a daily basis i like and am friends with so if i can do something to make there life easier i will gladly do so because i know it will be reciprocated someday(Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...See the bible is full of neat stuff).
Now on the flip side there are some that abuse the privelidge which may come back to haunt everyone. I have dealt with companies in the past that expected us to play dispatch for them. Every time they were airborne they wouldn;t even ask they would just say"i got times for company". At NC we have a program called DPAG (domestic paid air ground) which companies pay us to pass messages, times etc etc onto there company. Now when companies are getting this service for free and they abuse the system i have a problem with that. Now from time to time i absolutely will but after every movement it kinda gums your day up which can be better spent on other things.
NOw for the others that think i my brain is frozen or i'm dillusional well thats your opinion and it may very well be true, and your welcome to it but attacking me won't ever change my mind. If you want to argue the point thats the whole reason for this forum, i actually love it. it's a wonderful by-product of democracy that we can all get together and have different views but attacking others is just silly guys.
Just as an aside. In forty years of flying I have, until last week had nothing but the most helpful things from FSS. Way beyond the call of duty.
Last week however we asked a local FSS if they would call us a cab as we were 20 minutes out...and they said no. Apparently to many bad experiences...I know this is above and beyond FSS duties but it is the first time.....
quote]
trey;
Yes this happens where you have some guys that refuse to do anyhting above and beyond what is stated in Manobs. This is totally within there rights, do i agree with them....No. It comes down to customer service. If we do something to help you like call a taxi, order a pizza (yes that happens from time to time) it only helps to foster positive ATS/Pilot relations. Most of the pilots i talk to on a daily basis i like and am friends with so if i can do something to make there life easier i will gladly do so because i know it will be reciprocated someday(Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...See the bible is full of neat stuff).
Now on the flip side there are some that abuse the privelidge which may come back to haunt everyone. I have dealt with companies in the past that expected us to play dispatch for them. Every time they were airborne they wouldn;t even ask they would just say"i got times for company". At NC we have a program called DPAG (domestic paid air ground) which companies pay us to pass messages, times etc etc onto there company. Now when companies are getting this service for free and they abuse the system i have a problem with that. Now from time to time i absolutely will but after every movement it kinda gums your day up which can be better spent on other things.
NOw for the others that think i my brain is frozen or i'm dillusional well thats your opinion and it may very well be true, and your welcome to it but attacking me won't ever change my mind. If you want to argue the point thats the whole reason for this forum, i actually love it. it's a wonderful by-product of democracy that we can all get together and have different views but attacking others is just silly guys.
FSS: puting the Service back in Flight Services....
I never did say thank you to those that appreciate our service. Thank you we are always ready to help out where we can and appreciate the praise. We as FSS don't hear kind words often and we greatly appreciate them when they do come along.
FSS: puting the Service back in Flight Services....
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co-joe
- Rank 11
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- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:33 am
- Location: YYC 230 degree radial at about 10 DME
No offense meant but I was under the impression that there was a work to rule program in place with Nav Can employees due to contract disputes already. Pay cuts surely couldn't help this any.
I think most of the FSS's and ACC's do a swell job except when it comes to so called "high intensity operations" in yyc when the whole system seems unable to use 2 runways at once effectively.
I think most of the FSS's and ACC's do a swell job except when it comes to so called "high intensity operations" in yyc when the whole system seems unable to use 2 runways at once effectively.
System limitations aside, those are what they are and welkl changes can;t happen over night but they will improve be it through new technology or new procedures. Sometimes the airport setup hinders the operation, i'm speaking with no knowledge on this one but wouldn't it make things a lot mjore difficult that YYC doesn't have paralell runways, maybe the pilots and controlers from there can shed some light on this one.
As for the "work to rule". In one sense we do this since we follow established rules at all times. That aside i know what you mean and no we don;t "work to rule" in the union stoppage sense. The controllers settled there new 4 year contract last year. we just ratified our new 4 year contract just the other day. So in answer no there is no work to rule and even when we were in negotiations or when we went thru 3 years without a contract we never worked to rule. Thatmy friends is bargaining in bad faith. Either way there is no "work to rule" and there never was. If someone tells you that then they are being lazy or probably just won;t do it.
As for the "work to rule". In one sense we do this since we follow established rules at all times. That aside i know what you mean and no we don;t "work to rule" in the union stoppage sense. The controllers settled there new 4 year contract last year. we just ratified our new 4 year contract just the other day. So in answer no there is no work to rule and even when we were in negotiations or when we went thru 3 years without a contract we never worked to rule. Thatmy friends is bargaining in bad faith. Either way there is no "work to rule" and there never was. If someone tells you that then they are being lazy or probably just won;t do it.
FSS: puting the Service back in Flight Services....
All of Nav Canada's annual reports (back to 1997), with audited financial statements, are available on the web site at:Four1oh wrote:I don't know much about these guy's pay scales. I do know we're all getting raped by these fees Navcanada charges. So where is the money going? Big fat paycheques? Infrastructure? offshore accounts? I'd like to know.
http://www.navcanada.ca/NavCanada.asp?L ... efault.xml
As they often proclaim, NC has spent $1B on infrastructure since it's inception. There are way more radar sites, GPS approaches, ILSes, etc, today than there ever were under TC. Not to mention interal upgrades to computer and radar systems, which are largely invisible to pilots/customers. The money for that has to come from somewhere.
ATC salaries have also improved significantly during NC's existence. However, for the reasons bigfssguy mentioned, the increase is only rational. Salaries under TC were ridiculous for the work being done. And it still puts Canada's controllers just at the bottom of G7/G8 ATC salary levels.
As far as I am aware, virtually every unionized group in the company has settled multi-year contracts during the last six months or so.co-joe wrote:No offense meant but I was under the impression that there was a work to rule program in place with Nav Can employees due to contract disputes already. Pay cuts surely couldn't help this any.
I think most of the FSS's and ACC's do a swell job except when it comes to so called "high intensity operations" in yyc when the whole system seems unable to use 2 runways at once effectively.
I agree with a lot of what has been stated by the ATS guys but also feel strongly that ATC is not a job that only a handfull of individuals can do.
Yes, you must have organizational skills, good orientation and spacial and situational awareness.
The skill sets however, are no different than anything else. They are learned. They are learned at different rates by different people which is a cause for washout during training.
If the system was truely privatized and each region was put out to tender, there would be no shortage of individuals to fill the seats.
There are some real buffoons out there, but on both sides of the mic....
Yes, you must have organizational skills, good orientation and spacial and situational awareness.
The skill sets however, are no different than anything else. They are learned. They are learned at different rates by different people which is a cause for washout during training.
If the system was truely privatized and each region was put out to tender, there would be no shortage of individuals to fill the seats.
There are some real buffoons out there, but on both sides of the mic....
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polythene_pam
- Rank 1
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:27 pm
Well, the thing is, your life is dependent on good service by your controllers. The controller is dependent on getting good flight data, and good support. If the info on their strip is different than the info you filed, lives could be lost. If something goes wrong in the flight data chain, as it often does, the controller often needs to get flight data to shoot out some strips real quick to a neighboring sector, or contact some american agency in search of a flight plan. you want somebody back there you can depend on. Someone who won't screw you over and put you under.Like when I phone for a squak code from the YVR ACC, the person who gives it to me makes (in two examples that I can prove) in the neighbourhood of $67,000/year!!!!
Basically, you want someone in flight data with knowledge and experience. The only way to make this possible is to pay them enough so that the turnover is low. They do a lot more than just give you squawk codes.
The logic here is so flawed I don't know where to start!! First of all, why would navcan deliberately create a high-demand/low-supply labour market? It's not deliberate... They just have a tough time finding enough people who are able to do the job. These people who are accepted aren't idiots, either.Now I totally agree that the supply demand thing is true. Training your own people totally controls the supply. Always training just enough to keep everyone in overtime keeps you in demand. If the training was to go public and allow colleges to offer certified training you would very quickly see your job become as poorly paying as ours.
Besides, NavCan pays hundreds of thousands of dollars to train a controller to check out level.... WHO is going to pay a private company for that? Sorry, but you obviously have no clue as to what is involved in checking out an ifr atco.
I challenge you to find ONE SINGLE IFR controller who agrees with you here. Have you ever even been on the ops floor of an ACC? I don't want to start a pilots-vs-controllers thing here, but ask any ex-pilot controllers, and they'll tell you that there are some people who just can't do the job. Yes, flying an airplane is mostly a matter of repetitive skills, thorough checklist routines, and good habits. There are VERY few decisions to be made in most flights. GO/no go is the biggest choice of the fight! In the atc world, you're constantly making life/death decisions in a dynamic and stressful environment.The skill sets however, are no different than anything else. They are learned. They are learned at different rates by different people which is a cause for washout during training.
If the system was truely privatized and each region was put out to tender, there would be no shortage of individuals to fill the seats.
There are personality traits necessary to do ifr control that can't be learned.
This is a job that demands constant perfection, intense focus, sharp attention to detail, the ability to absorb information at a high rate with no requirement for repitition, and many more skills.
You may be extremely intelligent, but if you are also even a little bit forgetful, A.D.H.D, scatterbrained, distractable, disorganised, then you can't simply LEARN the skills involved... You'd have to go to a shrink and spend years changing your entire personality, and even the basic way your brain is wired in order to do the job properly.
You guys should refrain from making comments or judgements on something that you so obviously know very little about.
