Air Canada A340 first officer position

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Mon May 31, 2004 9:24 am

Does anybody know how much an Air Canada A340 first officer makes in salary after being on the airplane for the past 5 years. Any info would be greatly appreciated, just curious.

29chev · Post by **29chev** » Mon May 31, 2004 10:14 am

Why do you want to know about that one position?

N2 · Post by N2 » Mon May 31, 2004 12:08 pm

He's a WestJet spy! No actually he wants to find out if after 5 years he could expect to make more than the paperboy.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Mon May 31, 2004 12:34 pm

A friend of mine who fly's for AC told me 150K/year - not too shabby (a 5th year A320 FO makes just over 100K)....mind you this is before the latest wage consessions, so I honestly don't know anymore.

N2 · Post by N2 » Mon May 31, 2004 1:06 pm

And they've got the nerve to claim they are under paid! Where else can a person with a community college education make that kind of coin for so little work?

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:09 pm

Umm, Stock brokers, realtors, insurance brokers, make much more and do much less.

CEOs "downsize" corporations and get paid millions upon millions.

A self-employed tradesmen, plumbers, mechanics etc makes roughly the same amount, might do a bit more work..

MPs and MPPs make double that and do 1/2 the work.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:13 pm

Where else you say? Well, here are some places where you will make at least that, probably more: Cathay, BA, Singapore Airlines, Emirates, Gulf Air, Lan Chile, Air China, and many corporate flight departments in the middle east. Also, almost every major carrier in the world has higher salaries than AC....excepting the american companies....although I have heard that United pays very well.

Oh, and lets not forget all the other trades out there that make AWESOME coin....Truck Drivers, heavy equipment operators...these guys drive for a living as well....it's not tough work and they make great coin. There are tonnes of other examples, just my slow brain cannot thing of any others at this moment.

Point is, you can't compare it in such a way. if I were a passenger on one of those big things, I would want the pilot to be well paid as well to attract good people. If you pay shit, you will get what you pay for. If you pay well, you will get the best people wanting to work for you company.

Besides, the second reason we are all in this (after the love of flying) is for the money. It's a good thing as far as i am concerned...don't bash it. When our own expectations drop, the market will eventually reflect that.

cheers
wp

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:19 pm

wallypilot wrote:If you pay shit, you will get what you pay for. If you pay well, you will get the best people wanting to work for you company.

Besides, the second reason we are all in this (after the love of flying) is for the money. It's a good thing as far as i am concerned...don't bash it.

20,000 Pilots holding an CPL/ATPL say differently. Some will graduate and never fly again, others will work the ramp and never fly again, others will stick to it.. How many . Yeagars will be lost in the process??

Lots of those CPLers that fly for free or pay for their PPCs would gladly pay for a 747 PPC or work for free for a year to get onto Air Canada.

BUT as you mentioned wtf would be the point of us breaking our backs so we could move from tier 6 ramp monkey to tier 1 and not got any "benefits" out of it.

N2 · Post by N2 » Mon May 31, 2004 2:34 pm

wallypilot wrote: the other trades out there that make AWESOME coin....Truck Drivers, heavy equipment operators...these guys drive for a living as well....it's not tough work and they make great coin.

WP I've pulled B-Trains of gasoline around years ago and I can tell you it's not a cushy job by any means. Also I had to work my ass off to make 60k.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon May 31, 2004 2:56 pm

N2, it's just like our business we have "pilots" working the ramp 24/7 at $7/hr.

You weren't tier one trucker though.

A former co-worker was doing the toronto - bc - california - toronto run $8,000 every 2 weeks(10 days) 4 days to rest, rinse repeat. .

Spiraldive · Post by **Spiraldive** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:13 pm

An entry-level AC f/o makes around 44% of the CPT wage on whatever equipment they fly. An A340 CPT would make in the $240, 000 range. Mind you, very few five year f/o's have seen the A340 yet. More like still on the RJ, 44% of 90,000 is...

I'll leave the math to you.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:20 pm

No, I think or the way he phrased it, how much a XX year Vet at AC makes after he's been on the A340 for atleast 5years.

Spiraldive · Post by **Spiraldive** » Mon May 31, 2004 3:33 pm

My mistake. Slightly higher then, 130-150 grand a year for the senior cats. Not bad, considering the rest of the industry can drop a zero off that.

N2 · Post by N2 » Mon May 31, 2004 3:35 pm

YYZ he must have owned the unit and that 8k would be gross correct? I never owned the truck just drove it and we were some of the highest paid in Toronto at the time. We only worked 4 days a week and had a week off every 3 weeks.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon May 31, 2004 4:03 pm

Yeah, it was before tax.

He suffered burnout after a year and a bit. But money is to be made in trucking if you're really willing to sacrifice(health, family, etc).

WP is correct other airlines offer(ed) much more in the past.

But the best gig is to be a "Cat Driver" of the world, have every type rating available and be able to contract out your skills to the highest bidder.

N2 · Post by N2 » Mon May 31, 2004 4:20 pm

I was talking to the father of a guy that quit AC to go with Skyservice and he said his son's never been happier! Money isn't everything but he also said he's doing just as well at SSV as AC.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon May 31, 2004 5:22 pm

cyyz :

Yeah.... there is some satisfaction in doing what I do, however I sure would like to be, say about forty years younger and still have this way of making a living.

By the way, I don't work for the highest bidder I just have a hourly or daily rate plus expenses.

Experience has shown me that the highest bidder sometimes comes with demands that can get you killed.

Cat.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon May 31, 2004 5:50 pm

Sorry Cat, you're correct, I apologize.

You don't necessarily take the highest bidder. You get to pick and chose who you want to work for and you get to make your own "destiny." Many of us have to scrounge and accept whatever comes our way. Which isn't bad, when something does come by.

N2, Money isn't everything you're right, some people fly to fly that is correct, some carriers have better bases, benefits, schedules etc.
But money makes plenty of people happy. If we didn't have the big airlines that pay the big dollars we(many of us) wouldn't have much motivation to leave our homes to head north, work the ramp or fly the bush for a several years.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:04 am

helinas wrote:Does anybody know how much an Air Canada A340 first officer makes in salary after being on the airplane for the past 5 years. Any info would be greatly appreciated, just curious.

Send me aPM and I will give you all the info you need. I have the hourly rates of all the pilots after the wage concessions. (I have the old rates too)

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:31 am

cyyz, i agree.

the sad thing is that we're our own worst enemy is this regard. why must we argue amongst ourselves about whether we deserve any appreciable salary? i'm certainly not the first to suggest it, but i think the best way to justify an airline pilot's salary is (i) degree of specialization and (ii) responsibility. how many people out there could take your place if you quit today... and how long would it take for your operator to have them on-line (consider how this increases as you move up in your career)? and how many people are going to die or get hurt, or how expensive is the prang on the machinery if you make a real big boo-boo?

there are other justifications one could suggest as well: constant scrutiny (professionally and medically), offset for poor salary in the entry-level jobs, compensation for the expense of ab initio training (plus training bonds and/or ppc's these days), and allowance for time away from home (arguably part of the job, but isn't that something that's compensated for in other fields?).

as someone suggested earlier, most of us do this 'cause we love it. no one would dispute that. why does that mean we should get paid garbage for it?

MurtsAir · Post by **MurtsAir** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:44 am

Some advice giving to me by a recently retired AC 767 Captain. "Go overseas if you want to get ahead in this business, youll get on bigger tin faster and make a hell of a lot more money in the mean time then pissing around here hoping to get a break". I Heard somewere that UA 747 senior Captains make like 500k US a year anytruth to this?

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:47 am

When you're young and naive, money is everything.
You get a little older, you learn that success is not guaranteed by income.

You could be pulling in $5,000,000 a year on Bay Street with all the boy toys that money can buy, like the nice Toronto house, the shiny German car, the Muskoka cottage and the young trophy wife with the silicone fun bags, but if your kids are intravenous drug addicts living on the street because you were never there for them when they needed you when they were growing up, well, are you really that successful?

Keep chasing the almightly dollar, children.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:58 am

hz2p wrote:but if your kids are intravenous drug addicts living on the street because you were never there for them when they needed you when they were growing up, well, are you really that successful?

Keep chasing the almightly dollar, children.

Ah small price to pay for those fun bags..

But hz2p, what if you're stuck working the ramp at minimum wage and you're kids are in daycare, substandard day care compared to the $1000/month boarding school you could provide if you were rich???

Your children will resent you for making them live in poverty and still neglecting them to make enough money to provide a roof for them.

Money isn't everything, but no matter what you do, sometimes it's just not good enough for some people...

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:47 am

Parenting has nothing to do with buying your kids toys.

There are two very simple things you have to do, to be a good parent:

1) be there
2) don't be a jerk

The important things are always simple. The simple things are always hard.

99.999% of kids when faced with the choice of having toys or parents would choose parents, assuming they comply with rule #2 above.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:12 am

hz2p, while you are correct--money is not everything--that does not negate the fact that society revolves around it. while it is perhaps very noble to advocate an ascetic lifestyle, there is nothing wrong with enjoying a good salary. again, i agree that money does not buy happiness, but it does not automatically make you a jerk and ruin your children.

i don't believe there is anything wrong with the assertion that we are (for the most part!) professionals, and deserve more than minimum wage for what we do.

perhaps i am missing your point... and i do agree essentially with what you say. i just can't wrap my mind around why so many pilots are buying into this lcc philosophy that we do not deserve money for what we do. i know why airline management pushes it... but why do we espouse it ourselves?!?

Air Canada A340 first officer position

Air Canada A340 first officer position

Re: Air Canada A340 first officer position