PPC question

[172pilot]

sorry to bring up this topic - but i'm curious

what is the difference between buying a PPC and buying your instructor rating to get a job? ethically, don't both of these fall under the whole area of where the employer should buy the rating but yet many people still pay out of pocket for an instructor rating.

and, this is a dumb question: is a PPC a type rating?

[cyyz]

When you "buy" a PPC you're guaranteed a job, unless you're stupid...

When you pay for an instructor rating nothing is guaranteed....

[beechy]

Say, dont you buy a pilots license? you have to pay out of pocket for that. Last i checked truckers pay for training, i guess they buy a job too. Engineers, scientists, accountants all pay for schooling,but they don't complain about buying into a profession. I am not saying we as pilots should have to pay for specific type training but you have to look at it as an education....you're not buying yourself a job, you giving yourself education, a skill set if you will. If pilots would stop jumping ship as soon as a slightly better oportunity comes along you probably wouldn't have to pay for a ppc or sign a training bond right now. However companies can't always afford to take the risk that you're going to waste thier time and money by leaving at the first oportunity.

[abc xyz]

The pay for the PCC trick is even bigger joke. Seen a few people swindled on that deal at my old flight school.

172 - a "type rating" is a PPC on an aircraft in excess of 12,500 lbs - it will actually show on your licence. For example I have a type rating on a Metroliner III 16,000lbs - on my licences it says SW4.

[172pilot]

When you "buy" a PPC you're guaranteed a job, unless you're stupid...

When you pay for an instructor rating nothing is guaranteed....

either way, are you not just trying to increase your odds at finding work? sorta like buying a MBA versus those who get it paid for by an employer?

btw, i'm not buying a PPC. i fly a desk.

[PilotFlying]

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

[cyyz]

Last i checked truckers pay for training, i guess they buy a job too.
Engineers,
scientists,
accountants all pay for schooling,but they don't complain about buying into a profession.

Shneiders, will actually train you to drive a truck for free, you need to promise them 2 years after, and they start you at 32k US a year. Many, US trucking companies will hire and train you, many of them have divisions in Canada and will give you the same treatment...

Most engineers will be finishing school and the "smart ones" will already be getting job offers, Most MIT grads are already employed before they finish....

Many accounting programs in college offer co-op so you're already getting placement, you pop out and you have a job....

Scientists, rofl, that's a guaranteed paycheque once you're out, called gov't grants to do useless and pointless studies that no one usually cares about...

Pilots on the other hand... well, anyways...

either way, are you not just trying to increase your odds at finding work? sorta like buying a MBA versus those who get it paid for by an employer?

Exactly, and when you have it paid by the employer it's okay, and great, like many people here suggest the employer should pay for your PPC, Flight Safety, etc......

Yes, you're trying to increase your marketability, and as we have noticed and Cat and the older gents of our board can attest to education is lacking even with those who have "higher education," before you'd have the "elitists" who were "well educated" but today, BA's, MBA's etc are all being churned out at an alarming rate, and that's exactly what happened to aviation, way to many pilots got churned out, and now we have an over supply....

Today you need an MBA for middle management job
10 years ago, you needed a BA
20 Years ago, High School
30 Years ago, "some" high school

and it's exactly the bloody same thing with aviation

PPC, and 1500 hours ATPL
10yrs - 1000 hrs
20yrs - CPL 250 hrs...

But yet, you still have the same "caliber*" of middle managers filling the positions with their MBA's and you get the same "caliber" of guys with their PPCs or XXXXTT of instructing time in the big tin.

Our insurance companies dictate who we hire as pilots, and "society" tells the big corporations who's "supposedly" the best candidate to run a team of people.

*And despite their hours or credentials they still end up crashing or having the company lose money or just go plain old broke.

[Rockie]

what is the difference between buying a PPC and buying your instructor rating to get a job? ethically, don't both of these fall under the whole area of where the employer should buy the rating but yet many people still pay out of pocket for an instructor rating.

172 pilot

There is a difference between an instructor rating and a PPC. No one would suggest an employer should train you how to fly and get your licences in order to hire you. You have to have all the basic qualifications to get the job in the first place, meaning an ATPL. The PPC is a company specific qualification given to you by Transport Canada (that you must renew every six months or a year) in order to fly a particular type of airplane for that company only. For instance, a fully qualified A320 pilot with Air Canada cannot just go and fly an A320 for Skyservice airlines without completing a certain amount of training and doing another PPC for Transport Canada using Skyservice's SOP's.

I think you may be mistaking a PPC (Pilot Proficiency Check) with a Type Rating. If I have never flown a B757 before and do not have a type rating on it I must complete the initial qualification course. That is very expensive, in the neighborhood of $30,000 dollars minimum just for the simulator. At the completion of the training I must pass a PPC, and along with that I will recieve a type rating on my license for that particular type that is good forever. But even though I will always have that type rating on my license, if I let 30 months elapse before completing another PPC I must take the whole initial course all over again. Confusing isn't it?

It has always been convention for a company to provide the training for their pilots on whatever equipment the company chooses to operate. If a company is worried about someone taking the company provided training and then immediately cutting out for greener pastures they will typically impose a "training bond", which means that the pilot agrees to pay the company the cost of the training if they leave before a set period of time, usually three years. This cost is pro-rated over the three years so that if for instance the pilot left after 2 years he would only owe $10,000. This is a fair and easily understood practise that the vast majority of pilots have no problem with at all.

That is completely different that expecting a pilot to foot the bill for his training up front themselves. In the airline industry it has not been done in Canada until Michel Leblanc came along.

A comparison with the trucking industry might be this: Say I got my licenses to be able to drive a transport truck on the highway, but a company wanted to hire me to drive one of those specialty rigs that are very long and have a steerable bogey in the back with a driver too. That would probably take some special training despite the fact I had the basic license. It is normal and reasonable to expect the company to foot the bill for training me in this case if they expect me to operate the vehicle safely and in accordance with their procedures.

Take it to yet another level: The bridge crew of the Queen Elizabeth II or one of those super tankers cannot possibly pay for the cost of their training can they? Only the company that operates it has the resources to do that. And that is considered a cost of doing business. Just like it is in the airlines with any halfway reputable company.

[172pilot]

Thanks Rockie. And, yes, I must be confused with a pilot proficiency check.

So when people say they will buy a PPC they are talking about a pilot proficiency check, say a King Air, they can take to any airline - but still require a company specific PPC on that type? Or am i really confused?

[Dust Devil]

The PPC is a company specific qualification given to you by Transport Canada (that you must renew every six months or a year) in order to fly a particular type of airplane for that company only.

Sorry dude but that is just wrong! A PPC is transferable between companies.

[Airtids]

The PPC is a company specific qualification given to you by Transport Canada (that you must renew every six months or a year) in order to fly a particular type of airplane for that company only.

Sorry dude but that is just wrong! A PPC is transferable between companies.

But the COMPANY SPECIFIC training must still be done at the new company. In many cases, the initial company training on type is the same as for an initial PPC, just no ride required.

[Dust Devil]

The PPC is a company specific qualification given to you by Transport Canada (that you must renew every six months or a year) in order to fly a particular type of airplane for that company only.

Sorry dude but that is just wrong! A PPC is transferable between companies.

But the COMPANY SPECIFIC training must still be done at the new company. In many cases, the initial company training on type is the same as for an initial PPC, just no ride required.

Very True. It all depends on the experience of the pilot.

[beechy]

Shneiders, will actually train you to drive a truck for free, you need to promise them 2 years after, and they start you at 32k US a year. Many, US trucking companies will hire and train you, many of them have divisions in Canada and will give you the same treatment...

Most engineers will be finishing school and the "smart ones" will already be getting job offers, Most MIT grads are already employed before they finish....

Many accounting programs in college offer co-op so you're already getting placement, you pop out and you have a job....

Scientists, rofl, that's a guaranteed paycheque once you're out, called gov't grants to do useless and pointless studies that no one usually cares about...

Pilots on the other hand... well, anyways...

Being a professional scientist isn't a gaurenteed pay cheque....niether is going to engineering school or truck driving school or anywher else. Almost 50% of NSERC grant applications are rejected, you might be interested to know.....pilots aren't the only people who struggle to find work. I just finished a science degree, and for your info alot of people graduating with me aren't landing instant jobs, some of my profs are still trying to find permanent positions afer 10 years! Nothing in life is certain and it will help no one to go through life with a sense of entitlement. bTW I really haven't heard of any multi-million dollar airlines forcing people to pay for training, so a comparison to schneiders is really a bad analogy when considering that it is mostly small companies whom require that you help with training costs.

[groundtoflightdeck]

Depends on the ops manual.

[Spokes]

All this anti-buy PPC stuff is great. But what does a guy do when answering an add that asks for a "current PPC on type". Is this job then just for an elite few who happened to have a PPC for this aircraft from their former employer?

What is wrong with going out and buying a PPC on say an RJ? You have no gaurantee of a job. I know low timers that were able to do this. Foolish way to spend money I think, cause I suppose chances of a job on one is really small., But this is not 'immorral' (sp?).

What about the guy that gets a 50Hr bush pilot course? (Assuming its a well done one. please all those who think these things are useless leave this alone - different arguement). Are these people not trying to do the same thing.

I am not on one side or the other of this thing. Just trying to understand it.

[172pilot]

So a person can go buy a PPC/Type Rating (which isn't for a particular employer) for a King Air etc and take this to an employer which saves them the training costs other than SOP training? Or, your employer can train you which is a significant cost?

[Airtids]

Spokes, the moral and ethical issue of buying a PPC boils down to this: When you purchase a PPC you do two things: A) You are indicating to the employers in this industry that it is OK for them to demand a pilot pay for training that is specific to them in terms of the equipment they operate. B) You are using your wallet to 'jump queue' ahead of those folks who have possibly been working harder, are more experienced, and are better pilots than you, but you have cash, and could care less about their situation because you're too busy looking out for #1 at all costs.

Think of it this way: How do you feel when you're standing in line at the club, with your girl, and the band's about to start, the bouncer keeps telling you there's no way you're getting in until someone leaves, and then Billy-bob Poseur rolls up with his piece of eye-candy, flashes a fifty, and struts on in? A little hot under the collar? Ready to reach for a fifty, even if it means you're pounding H2O once you get in? Understand the pay-for-PPC moral issue now?

The reality is, however, that this just might be the way this industry is going. Only those with enough money will be able to afford to get in and stay in this crazy business. Unfortunately, that is going to have the side effect of possibly passing over the odd . Yeager. Shame, really.

172- you got it. However, as has been stated, there are no guarantees you'll get a job because you have a PPC. 200 hours and a on a LR55 will NOT get you employed, just broke.

[Dust Devil]

now people are gonna bitch about 2 teired employment

[Pugster]

So a person can go buy a PPC/Type Rating (which isn't for a particular employer) for a King Air etc and take this to an employer which saves them the training costs other than SOP training? Or, your employer can train you which is a significant cost?

Coming in with a PPC on an aircraft like a King Air will save the potential employer a few hours of initial training (most companies I'm aware of would put you on with 2 hours of training instead of 5).

But honestly, most of the time they're looking for pilots with experience on the particular aircraft (or one similar) - not a 200 hour guy with a PPC and no real clue of how to fly the machine. My money says that buying a PPC will wind up being a big waste of time and money - no employer worth working for would skip an experienced driver without a PPC to hire a guy with no real experience but a fresh piece of paper.

Save the PPC cash, do a road trip up North, and try to gain employment with a company that will put you in at the ground level and work you up from there.

Best of luck, and don't sell your soul - or skip some of the fun (ya it can be fun) that can be had in the first couple of years.

Pugster

[Dust Devil]

So a person can go buy a PPC/Type Rating (which isn't for a particular employer) for a King Air etc and take this to an employer which saves them the training costs other than SOP training? Or, your employer can train you which is a significant cost?

Coming in with a PPC on an aircraft like a King Air will save the potential employer a few hours of initial training (most companies I'm aware of would put you on with 2 hours of training instead of 5).

But honestly, most of the time they're looking for pilots with experience on the particular aircraft (or one similar) - not a 200 hour guy with a PPC and no real clue of how to fly the machine. My money says that buying a PPC will wind up being a big waste of time and money - no employer worth working for would skip an experienced driver without a PPC to hire a guy with no real experience but a fresh piece of paper.

Save the PPC cash, do a road trip up North, and try to gain employment with a company that will put you in at the ground level and work you up from there.

Best of luck, and don't sell your soul - or skip some of the fun (ya it can be fun) that can be had in the first couple of years.

Pugster

True but I would take a pilot with 1000 multi and a ppc on a ho over a guy with 3000 multi and no ppc

[172pilot]

Save the PPC cash, do a road trip up North, and try to gain employment with a company that will put you in at the ground level and work you up from there.

Best of luck, and don't sell your soul - or skip some of the fun (ya it can be fun) that can be had in the first couple of years.

Pugster

I'm not doing a PPC. I fly for fun right now and work a desk job. It's crossed my mind though that if I had a good 500+ hrs PIC and wanted to find a job (since i'm not young anymore) I wondered why such an objection to the PPC route since pilots buy other ratings for better odds at employment. It's a good debate. Thanks for the replies.

[cyyz]

Being a professional scientist isn't a gaurenteed pay cheque....
Almost 50% of NSERC grant applications are rejected, you might be interested to know.....

pilots aren't the only people who struggle to find work. I just finished a science degree, and for your info alot of people graduating with me aren't landing instant jobs, some of my profs are still trying to find permanent positions afer 10 years!

bTW I really haven't heard of any multi-million dollar airlines forcing people to pay for training, so a comparison to schneiders is really a bad analogy when considering that it is mostly small companies whom require that you help with training costs.

I'm thankful that some of those grant applications are denied and someone is actually reviewing, relieved, yes, I'm glad to hear it, thank you.

"your profs" are looking for work.... That's like the Liberal prof's who teach business, and the cons who go to the work force and succeed... Atleast the "profs" are getting paid to be "profs" did they LITERALLY pay the school to give them the job(PPC purchase), or did they get their PHds and apply(instructor rating).

Southwest, you need a type-rating before you will be hired, ryanair, and many of the carriers there will have "self-endorsed" employment, they hire you, you pay for your type and you are flying for them and getting paid(ultra expensive bonds)

Secondly, lufthansa and KLM, cathay, have cadet programs, where you're hired with ZERO TT and are trained from scratch and fly.....

Canada, different market, and area... We're the worst off....

/disregard above rant...

Lets leave it at you're right, no one should have an opinion of self entitlement, most of the folk's with BA's are no better than those with CPLs,

BAers finish degrees and complain about "no jobs" but a mcjob is below them and all their degree is for is basketweaving, no sympathies, and all those with CPLs think they should be flying AXXX or BXXX's and think that the ramp/dock is below them.

[wallypilot]

hey DD: is that because you are afraid the 3000 hr pilot will leave for another job soon, or is it a strictly a cost savings issue?

172pilot: I am not 100% sure on this, but i think you also need a type rating for aircraft that are considered High Performance....this means VNe greater than 250 KTS and VSO greater than 80 KTS. so even some airplanes under 12500 that don't require 2 crew still need a type rating. Most of the twin commander aircraft (Shrike, as well as the 600 and up series) are a perfect example. TBM700 is another.

[cyyz]

Unfortunately, that is going to have the side effect of possibly passing over the odd . Yeager. Shame, really..

Okay, why does everyone say that, he was in the military, the military trained him, if you're poor get your butt to the CFs, sign up for confed, or even better, go to quebec, where you'll get a free Hcpl and 200hrs on a Turbo Ranger and/or CPL with 200 hrs on a Navajo....

Or go and mooch off HRDC.....

frankly, i'm tired of these debates, i'm sure everyone in the 20-35 age group has done something to screw over the next guy, and others have their opinion of that person, for whatever reason and for whatever they did.....

[Dust Devil]

hey DD: is that because you are afraid the 3000 hr pilot will leave for another job soon, or is it a strictly a cost savings issue?

172pilot: I am not 100% sure on this, but i think you also need a type rating for aircraft that are considered High Performance....this means VNe greater than 250 KTS and VSO greater than 80 KTS. so even some airplanes under 12500 that don't require 2 crew still need a type rating. Most of the twin commander aircraft (Shrike, as well as the 600 and up series) are a perfect example. TBM700 is another.

I think mabey my statement was a little too general as there are a number of other factors that go into a decision. If I was to base my decision soley on hours (which I don't) and ppc's then ya I'd go for the 1000 hour guy with a ppc due to cost savings and speed at which I could get him in the field working.