Nasty ATC exchange

WJ700 · Post by **WJ700** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:41 pm

http://www.liveatc.net/forum/files/givemeyourid_160.mp3

Two guys and neither one taking the highroad...

windshear · Post by **windshear** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:04 pm

Pretty entertaining. How did you come across this exchange?

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:06 pm

Hmm no one likes an exchange like this taking place but sh*t happens however once the Captain makes a request to have the tape pulled, the tape has to be marked and pulled. If the ATC controller felt he was to busy to acknowledge the request his ATC supervisor should have stepped in and relieved the controller.

Basically the way it was handled only led to an unsafe emotional operation for both pilot and controller.

WJ700
l
Posting such information is both childish, inmature and probably illegal, you should grow up..

195psi · Post by **195psi** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:15 pm

I gues I'm missing something. It seemed pretty harmless except for the "ok, that's enough" which I could understand if they were very busy, especially in YYZ. Please enlighten me.

Jeremy Kent · Post by **Jeremy Kent** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:32 pm

195psi · Post by **195psi** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:34 pm

I don't fly them, I fix them so forgive me for my ignorance. I heard AC working with ATC on solutions being helpful and what seemed like AC being over helpful and being told in a blunt way to "shut up". Then the AC guy got pissed. Anyone?

FL410 · Post by **FL410** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:38 pm

Sounded like the guy switching freqs at the end of the clip wished YYZ "good luck".

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:57 pm

Hmmm was the controller's name "Murray" by any chance?!

WJ700 · Post by **WJ700** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:57 pm

WJ700
l
Posting such information is both childish, inmature and probably illegal, you should grow up..[/quote]

It's a public internet address. Get a life.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:57 pm

Flightlevels · Post by **Flightlevels** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:20 pm

pricelesssss...what an ass pilot trying to do the controlling.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:54 pm

Flightlevels wrote:pricelesssss...what an ass pilot trying to do the controlling.

Amazing how Air Canada flies all over the world but only has major problems with one facility. I fly with ex controllers who tell me about the politics of YYZ ATC.

Remember ROG? The guy could move airplanes and do it well which is why he didn't fit in with YYZ.

I am sorry but if you are asked to pull the tapes, you pull the Fu*#$king tapes. I hope the guy gets roasted.

If the pilot is asking something that is inappropriate, it could be that he was slowed back to 210 kts 150 miles out on the approach only to be told he is the only one on the approach " speed your discretion" How many times does that happen???? So on departure, you can be just as skeptical.

2low · Post by **2low** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:12 pm

Typical.

split s · Post by **split s** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:13 pm

arrogant pilot, ignorant controller= 2 people who should grow up![/quote]

groundpilot · Post by **groundpilot** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 8:43 pm

Can someone explain to me why the pilot was given a speed restriction on departure and why he was only cleared to 6000' initially?

Pretty gutsy of the pilot to do that over the air? Couldnt he just get the number after landing at his next destination. Its called a phone book.

727driver · Post by **727driver** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:17 pm

Next time call ops tell them to contact ATC (I'm sure ops has the number) and tell them you want the tapes pulled. 128.8 is not the time or place to be getting into pissing match with a controller who responsible for keep us all from running into eachother. The guy knows his job or he wouldn't be there. Also he already offered a quick explanation for the restriction which he didn't have to do. That should have been the end of it. I'd like to see this guy try something like that going into Heathrow or JFK. They would eat him alive.

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:28 pm

What an ass, and I do mean the pilot. 128.8 is a busy freq, STFU and do what you're told!

So Rebel, did they pull the tape for you or what?!

Rebel · Post by **Rebel** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:35 am

WJ700

You’re not doing yourselve or your company (WJ) any favors by posting or reposting family information of a questionable nature. I suspect both unions legal departments are none to happy.

Four1oh

So another WJ immature ass that doesn’t know the rules no wonder you folks get yourselves in so many legal troubles.. After a request has been made to pull the tapes that request has to be acknowledged by the controller. The Captain is fully within his/her legal rights to request the RCMP to recover the marked tapes and that legal precedent has already been set. Bottom line once a Captain makes such a request it becomes official, pretty basic 101 stuff. Captains should be aware of their legal authority and use it wisely.

tonysoprano · Post by **tonysoprano** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:54 am

Yah. Real happy people these guys.

windshear · Post by **windshear** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:16 am

It appears the pilot simply got embarrassed when he basically was told to "shut up" and to try and save face he asked for the tapes to be pulled.

The controller was probably out of line, however, the pilot should have "thicker skin", flying ain't for babies.

learcapt · Post by **learcapt** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:45 am

Come on now...if the Captain thought that the speed was unsafe, inappropriate, etc. he did not have to accept the clearance and i am sure the controller would have given a vector or something. Departure was busy, the controller gave thanks for the crew trying to make something else work, and the A**hole still went on about it..completely unprofessional! and Jaques Strappe, if you think that the pilot did nothing wrong and the ATC did, well i dont have to say what i think.

55+ · Post by **55+** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:24 am

I am not an operational controller, however was involved in operational aspects of an ACC and my understanding tapes can only be requested if there is an"incident" and an investigation results from that. TC enforcement always requested transcripts for alledged violations to prove their case and they had to produce a written request, at least that was the process where I worked, also TSB would request transcripts if required because of accident investigation. Point is, this sort of thing has to be official and there is a lenghtly process and it involves the ACC technical branch as well.............I somewhat doubt pilots/airlines have that authority on their own

RB-211 · Post by **RB-211** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:43 am

Listen to the tape a few times. The controller was polite up until the point where the pilot suggested that 'He did not see the whole picture'. Good one. The ATC guy was clearly busy and asked the crew to fly 220-230. The crew accpeted without any objection so there was clearly no saftey issue with minimum speeds etc.

The pilot had his ego bruised and would not let it go. The controller was polite until the AC pilot pissed him off. Would be funny to listen to the same conversation taking place in London, New York or Chicago. Someone would have got their head chewed off.

Pilots fly airplanes and ATC guys/gals control them. If the crew can't oblige to an instruction then the only response is 'UNABLE due to.......'

The AC pilot got what he deserved and in my mind if he has any class would have realized his mistake that evening over a beer, and just let it go. Good for a laugh though...................

Long Keel · Post by **Long Keel** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:51 am

The "enough" comment was immature; "standby", "I'm working 5 airplanes close prox" etc, all would be sufficient.

When the tapes are asked for, "no time" is not an appropriate answer.

The Captain however let his ego get in the way and spent way to much time on this "distraction".

All those who think the Captain is an xxx and should let it go perhaps should study the Reason's model for accidents. This is one big wide gapping hole. ATC makes a non-standard comment that is gruff with intent to insult the Capt. Capt demands name, licence #, and tapes pulled. Common thread both individuals are not 100% focused now on their primary tasks. Small distractions have brought airplanes down.

Both individuals should be sent to CRM classes. I have had a similar incident with ATC in a Canadian airport many years ago. Instead of dealing with it "on air" I waited until I was on the ground. I phoned the tower and left a call back number (work) for the controller on xxx freq at yyy time. When he called back and I asked a few questions about the situation and buddy went ballistic, demanding my licence #. I gladly offered it and in return I took his, and forwarded things to my chief pilot (way before my AC days) and Transport Canada got involved. Turns out the controller was the tower supervisor, and rarely worked the mic. He was also hated by most line ATC controllers for his abrasive methods. He was sent for a government style CRM course as a result. I was informed that I was correct and was thanked for bringing the information forward but experienced a lot of intimidation initially from this ATC boss. For the balance of my years in that city I went out for beers with the rest of the line ATC guys.

I rarely have problems in YYZ. In fact the only airports in the last few years where things have been really bad have been in the USA. KPIT was the worst for me, with 8 TCAS RA's in three years. KMIA can be bad as well as they do the typical American thing and try and get you to take a visual in IMC, then throw a hissy fit when you refuse.

This whole exchange could have been prevented if 1) The ATC guy had shown some better CRM to let the Captain know how busy he was, 2) The Capt went through his dispatch to get the required info rather than on freq raising the stress between both individuals and potentially causing a huge distraction to the operation for both individuals. We can't forget our primary task is always safety.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:56 am

727driver wrote:I'd like to see this guy try something like that going into Heathrow or JFK. They would eat him alive.

That wouldn't happen in JFK or LHR.