Flights over open water (sea)

floatplane · Post by **floatplane** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:51 am

Hi guys,

I need some serious information about flights over open water with a piston powered Beaver (straight floats).

What are the operation limits for this aircraft (or its floats)
in view of wave heights during take off and landing? (for example:
what is the wave limit for a safe water landing in case of an engine
failure during an open water flight?) Exist any "official" figures
from float manufacturers, authorities,… or what is the maximum in your
eyes (or better after your experiences)?

Maybe especially the guys who gained flying experiences overseas (like
Fiji, Australia, Maldives) can write something about it

Thank you very much!

Sebastian

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:04 pm

Well we fly daily over a part of the West Coast that is exposed to open ocean and it's a safe bet that if it's blowing 20kts or more your done if your engine quits. As for takeoff and landing if you can't span the waves it's going to be an ugly scene. If the water is calm, watch for the white surf on the rocks. Thats a good indication of the presence of swell. If there is swell you know the routine don't land into them.

fogghorn · Post by **fogghorn** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:29 pm

phillyfan wrote:Well we fly daily over a part of the West Coast that is exposed to open ocean and it's a safe bet that if it's blowing 20kts or more your done if your engine quits. As for takeoff and landing if you can't span the waves it's going to be an ugly scene. If the water is calm, watch for the white surf on the rocks. Thats a good indication of the presence of swell. If there is swell you know the routine don't land into them.

If you are over open ocean with 20kt wind, there is going to be a swell and you will have to land parallel to it, regardless of wind speed. As to how long the a/c will stay floating afterwards, that is anyones guess. There is no reason for it to necessarily immediately sink. I know of a goose that was landed due to both fans quitting (it's a goose thing) over hecate strait and it was flown back out the same day with a heavy swell running, i.e. 20'.

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:03 pm

That sounds like a fine plan but the "ground swell" does not travel with the waves created by the wind.
Like going around "Cape Caution" with a westerly swell and the wind blowing southeast. There is just no way you will be landing succesfully in the open ocean where you are exposed to wind and swell. Not in a piston Beaver anyway.
Anyone who flys piston Beavers over the open ocean. If the wind is blowing 20+ and you can't glide to an island. Point her into the wind, crack your door and get ready to get wet. Off any Canadian Coast Your gonna want to get a radio call off too because it's gonna be cold in the water. If your in Fiji watch out for sharks!! But hey if you don't believe me wait until a day it's blowing 20+ and get down into ground effect and see how it looks.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:10 am

I have to agree with Philly. There have been way too many days where I've just looked down and thought, if this thing quits, I'm pooched...

The only thing you can hope for is to point it into wind and hope that your ground speed is slow enough that it doesn't break up too bad when you hit the water. Of course, when you are at 200' or less, your options are limited.. Some days you just wonder WTF am I doing out here..

Yes, the glory of aviation.. Methinks it might be time to go back flying something with 2 turbines on it..

bronson · Post by **bronson** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:12 am

I talked to an Aussie that was out doing shark patrol in a C 206 when the engine quit. He lined up parrallel to the swell for the landing...and the swell just swatted the floats off! Said he was about 200' down when he got out and was bleeding heavily because he'd had to punch his way out thru the windshield. He was over here to buy a Mallard!

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Mon May 01, 2006 9:29 am

bronson wrote:I talked to an Aussie that was out doing shark patrol in a C 206 when the engine quit. He lined up parrallel to the swell for the landing...and the swell just swatted the floats off! Said he was about 200' down when he got out and was bleeding heavily because he'd had to punch his way out thru the windshield. He was over here to buy a Mallard!

Nice, bleeding in shark infested waters

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon May 01, 2006 11:29 am

I just love this forum, there are as many ideas as posters.

However in this conversation Philly and Twotter are correct, if there is a wind that strong blowing you land into wind and hope you die quick instead of freeze to death.

I wonder how many here actually know how to judge swells, and are aware that there can be more than one swell pattern plus the wind generated waves.

Bottom line is if you go down in the open ocean in those conditions you are dead unless you are lucky enough to get picked up in a short period of time....

....now if you have a survival suit on that will change your chances, but who wears one whle flying on the west Coast?

We carry survival suits on over ocean trips and being a multi crew and multi engine operation we usually would have time to get into a survival suit.

Cat

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Mon May 01, 2006 12:00 pm

twotter wrote: I have to agree with Philly. There have been way too many days where I've just looked down and thought, if this thing quits, I'm pooched...

There are 30 or 40 days a year on the coast when you look down and think, 'yup, easy to deadstick onto that'. For the other 330 days, there really isn't much difference between a plane with floats under it, and one with wheels under it. I always used to keep an eye on where the boats were, figured if one puts it in beside a boat, at least there's a chance you get picked up before the cold water does you in.

Looking out the window here today, winds are 15 to 20 out of the west. There are 10 foot waves breaking on the breakwater leading out from gary point. Inside the breakwater they are 4 to 5 feet, with some serious white stuff capping them. This is 'protected' water on the inside, those waves are not riding atop an ocean swell here. Anybody that thinks they can put a beaver or otter down into this and not end up swimming, well, they are just dreaming. Looks good on paper though, floats underneath make you legal heading out there.

But, this conversation shows the real 'tell'. Bunch of folks that have spent time on the coast debating the surviveability. As cat puts it, 10 people, 10 opinions. None of them are of the 'been there, done that' variety. The reason is really simple, everybody that's 'been there' isn't around to tell us about it from first hand experience. Everybody that's spent any significant time on the coast has been to at least one funeral or memorial service for a compatriot that's ended up in the water. How many of you know somebody that can join us for beers at the beaver, and tell the 'been there, done that' story ? Now turn the tables, lets talk about putting one into the trees. I'll bet every one of us knows somebody that can hook up for beers, and tell us the 'been there, done that, got the t-shirt' story. Therein lies the real 'tell'.

wasYKnowFJ · Post by **wasYKnowFJ** » Mon May 01, 2006 7:15 pm

Well, here's my $0.02

{What are the operation limits for this aircraft (or its floats) in view of wave heights during take off and landing?} - there's no magic number.

Out in the open ocean (miles off shore) you could land on a 20' swell. They're widely spaced and rolling slowly, and it's just like landing on a runway with a big ditch on each side.
Closer to shore the swell is broken up by surrounding islands and other obstacles, and a it's like landing on a field thats been ploughed North-South, and East-West. It's very hard on the airplane.

Add some wind, watching for boats, swimmers, rocks, reef, logs, debris (everyone watches for coconuts, right) and you're in the fun.

My general rule (there's nothing in an aircraft manual or float documents) near the shore, is anything more than a 3' wave , and I'll look for other options. The Landing 'slide' is shorter than Take-off, so sometimes you'll take a bigger load in than you'd want to take-off with. Operating parallel to the swell is much easier on the aircraft, but wind and secondary swells will be a factor too.

As for engine failure over water, there's are plenty of sea conditions that I don't want to be on. But, as long as I haven't broken open a float and the waves aren't going to capsize me (and it would take a good-sized cresting wave to do that), I've got some time to sort out the problem or wait for a ride.

I have no doubt that someones picture out their window is far different from mine. Conditions are different, and any number of variables can change a scenario. But that's why we're in the 'Bush Flying and Specialty' section, and not just waking up the Captain to ask.

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Mon May 01, 2006 8:34 pm

A 3' wave??? In a Beaver or an Otter, you'd better be pretty good to deal with a true 3' wave and not break anything.. I'd prefer not to.. I know I can handle it with a twin otter on whips but anything less is asking for trouble.. The spacing for a 3' wave will make it very difficult for any floatplane to deal with..

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue May 02, 2006 6:09 am

There is no one size answer fits all in water operations due to the ever changing nature of water operations.

There are however some fixed physics that can not be changed such as wave impact forces on the floats or hull, this is very simply the speed at which impact occurs and the impact angle and time frame of impact which is also determined by wave height and spacing.

For what ever it is worth we have a two foot maximum wave height allowance for landing on water with the PBY.

Only experience will determine if you can safely land in any given condition.

Cat

cplanedriver · Post by **cplanedriver** » Tue May 02, 2006 6:34 am

Hey," wasYKnowF", howzit goin. Howz the family.
Twotter, I agree with the 3 foot thingy depending on if I am leaving light or heavy. Also learned a lot bout big and salty water ops from" wasYKnowF", me being a prairie boy and all, Broke a float attach bolt once in the three footer when they gave me two more folks than we planned on and there was about 100 feet less than I needed in the 2 footers. felt it snap in my right foot on the last jump:oops: Also turned away from what I suppose may have been 3 footers that looked like 4 footers a few times and didn't set it down. And I don't want to have to set it down in the big swells from yesterdays wind that is now 90 degrees to todays wind with the quartering swell and the waves on top of the swell. Phewww. The 985 goes into auto rough when land dissapears and I find I don't like to think too much bout the life raft stowed in the back...Had your training?????
Fly safe....

coastdog · Post by **coastdog** » Sat May 06, 2006 4:42 pm

My suggestions in open water would be the fishboat option or the swimming pool of a passing cruiseship. If you are close to shore, aim for the beach, trees, small cove or land in the surf zone. You will die in the ocean from exposure, better to risk broken bones and burns.