Bid Close

rightsideup · Post by **rightsideup** » Thu May 04, 2006 4:54 am

I am home on reserve ... any news on bid 06-01?

Will it close Friday? or are we going to have to vote on changes first?

RSU

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Thu May 04, 2006 7:09 am

No news yet. If nothing happens, the bid is supposed to to close Friday.

rightsideup · Post by **rightsideup** » Thu May 04, 2006 7:29 am

Lost in Saigon wrote:No news yet.

I wonder if no news is good news? If there are no changes to the contract/PG then I suppose the bid will close as (re)scheduled ...

Cheers,
RSU

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Thu May 04, 2006 8:49 am

I heard a rumour that there were not enough guys bidding capt on the emj and they have to negotiate the position freeze with ACPA. Any truth to this?

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Thu May 04, 2006 9:10 am

There was something like 150 unbid 320 FO positions and 50 unbid EMJ CA positions. There are talks going on right now trying to remedy the situation.

Jeremy Kent · Post by **Jeremy Kent** » Thu May 04, 2006 9:29 am

SO... if some of you more in the know could take a moment to educate a newbie... what exactly was the intent of creating the PG? Was there more to it then to keep a thumb on the salaries of newhires? And how has it failed in whatever its purpose was? Is the conjecture that abolishing the PG is the focus of the company/ACPA talks... or are there other possible solutions being floated?

Just trying to understand this brave new world I live in!!

rightsideup · Post by **rightsideup** » Thu May 04, 2006 11:47 am

Just a guess but I suspect that it is possible that the PG is expanded ... not sure if ACPA would even entertain this concept without some major changes ... Any thoughts out there if that is even a possibility

Jeremy Kent wrote:SO... if some of you more in the know could take a moment to educate a newbie...

Like you Jeremy ... my education is ongoing (to say the least) ... Speaking of education how is the line indoc going

Jeff

Jeremy Kent · Post by **Jeremy Kent** » Thu May 04, 2006 12:16 pm

Went well! Just waiting for my base check... but this is no problem as after the pace of our course I now have a black belt in waiting. It's giving me plenty of time to get caught up on many things, too: watching TV, napping, watching TV, sleeping in, watching TV... that sort of stuff!

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Thu May 04, 2006 1:45 pm

The Postion Group letter of Understanding says that Air Canada must only put newhires in one of the Position Group vacancies. The big need now is for 320 FO's and the LOU doesn't allow it.

Here is some info from a 2004 ACPA newsletter"

Position Group

The common pay rate for the CRJ First Officer, EMB First Officer, and B-767 and A-340 Relief Pilots is an alternative pay mechanism. It is a hybrid form of status pay (grouped pay rate).

This mechanism solves long standing problems within this seniority range. The savings come from reduced training events for pilots within the Group who cannot bid to another position within the Position Group on their awarded base for a period of five years.

The common pay rate for the Position Group is a weighted blend of the formula pay rates currently based on the number of QPOS pilots in each position. It is recalculated every two months. It is also a requirement that "the total payroll for all pilots within the Position Group will be cost neutral and no less than what the payroll of all positions within the Position Group would have been without the implementation of the Position Group."

The Position Group provisions also addresses the concerns of more senior pilots currently qualified on or awarded the CL-65 First Officer, prevents new hire/recall pilots from being awarded to higher positions ahead of active pilots, and avoids "winners and losers" due to the award of new hire/recall positions.

The immediate effect of the Position Group is that the current 94 CL-65 First Officers will see their pay increase by about $16,000 per year, while the current 89 surplus pilots will see an annual decrease in pay of $13,000 for a B-767 Relief Pilot, $22,000 for an A-340 Relief Pilot, $11,000 for a LCC First Officer, and $20,000 for an A-320 First Officer.

Jeremy Kent · Post by **Jeremy Kent** » Thu May 04, 2006 1:59 pm

So maintaining the PG but allowing newhires into non-PG positions that no one has bid could be the simple solution? Or is there still more to the story?

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Thu May 04, 2006 5:09 pm

So maintaining the PG but allowing newhires into non-PG positions that no one has bid could be the simple solution?

No, that isn't going to cut it. Most of the membership wants to see an end to PG. Now that the RJ's are gone it would make sense to kill it now. Without PG, the company could hire directly to the 320 and all pilots would be paid formula after flat pay. Problem is that some EMJ FO's that are off flat salary will see a paycut of about 10% without PG.

I think that could be taken care of with an increase of 10% in the hourly rate for the EMJ. That would also get more guys to bid CA on it as well. The EMJ is underpaid considering the size and weight. It is comparable to a DC-9.

DC-9 pay for a 7 year CA is $150/hr while year 7 EMJ CA only pays $123/hr. 3 year FO on the DC-9 would make about $80/hr and 3 year EMJ FO only makes about $60/hr.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Thu May 04, 2006 6:49 pm

Saigon

Those DC9 rates you posted, are they pre or post CCAA?

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Fri May 05, 2006 5:31 am

Those are the latest rates from our 2003-2009 contract. (including 777 and 787).

You can download it here from the members area of the ACPA website.
https://secure.acpa.ca/dl.asp?f=1327

There is no payscale for 2 year EMJ CA's. I guess they will get flat pay. (All other aircraft show a 2 year CA payscale)

balls · Post by **balls** » Fri May 05, 2006 2:59 pm

Lost in Saigon wrote:Those are the latest rates from our 2003-2009 contract. (including 777 and 787).

You can download it here from the members area of the ACPA website.
https://secure.acpa.ca/dl.asp?f=1327

There is no payscale for 2 year EMJ CA's. I guess they will get flat pay. (All other aircraft show a 2 year CA payscale)

It would not make sense to take the risk to bid a captain position on probation, and on flat salary. You would take a huge leap into the risk of being terminated, much extra effort, increased liability and all for no extra compensation.

Anyone that would do that is biting off a huge chunk of (potential) misery, at least a chunk of unnecessary anxiety. Wait until you are off probabtion, with some union protections in place, then bid up. Bid the senior positions and at least control your working conditions a bit, since your wage on probation is pre-determined.

There are a number of open EMJ Capt positions on the trial bid run, and that brings back the 'shades of Freddie' scenarios that are currently sending shivers down the spine of management, one would suspect.

popo · Post by **popo** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:01 pm

any word on the bid??
did it close today, or is there more to follow?

mduffy · Post by **mduffy** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:41 pm

balls,

I agree, to a large extent, with your comments and appreciate the responsiblity that one assumes in the left seat at AC. There is howerever, something I don't quite understand.

If a (fairly) new hire pilot chooses not to bid the left seat, who will be awarded those positions, assuming the bid went that low?

Would the company hire direct entry pilots? Contract pilots? Pay more to attract senior f/o''s from other aircraft?

balls · Post by **balls** » Sat May 06, 2006 9:33 am

mduffy wrote:balls,

I agree, to a large extent, with your comments and appreciate the responsiblity that one assumes in the left seat at AC. There is howerever, something I don't quite understand.

If a (fairly) new hire pilot chooses not to bid the left seat, who will be awarded those positions, assuming the bid went that low?

Would the company hire direct entry pilots? Contract pilots? Pay more to attract senior f/o''s from other aircraft?

That is an AC management problem. That is also the point of the bid award not going to be published, or in abeyance, whatever, until the MEC and company can figure out the answer to that paradox. It is not that people don't want the left seat obviously, but not under the PG conditions, and the post CCAA wawcon we have.

A flat salary probation pilot would be happier, with better working conditions flying overseas as an RP, watching "the system" and getting comfortable with what is expected of you, the contract, and all the cultural changes that coming to any new company would involve. Why expose yourself unnecessarily to potential loss of career after all the work getting to AC? There is lots to learn and 18months before you bid, and 2 years to off probation before you start course only makes risk management sense for a 25-35 year career.

The EMJ it is rumoured, already has quite a different culture than the rest of the airline. The RJ had the same issues 10 years ago.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Sat May 06, 2006 1:01 pm

balls wrote:
The EMJ it is rumoured, already has quite a different culture than the rest of the airline. The RJ had the same issues 10 years ago.

In what way?

exbengal · Post by **exbengal** » Sat May 06, 2006 1:28 pm

In what way you ask, easy acpa is going to have to negioate a.ka. sell the farm, whipsaw, whatever, to keep the emj's, guys like balls are used to this though, just ask him how much he's given up in wages the last 10 yrs to keep the rj's and he probably never even flew one.

Whats Roberts stock options worth trhis week?

lownslow200 · Post by **lownslow200** » Sat May 06, 2006 1:51 pm

Did the bid close yesterday?

Lost in Saigon · Post by **Lost in Saigon** » Sat May 06, 2006 4:41 pm

The bid did close but they have 10 days to release the results. If the talks result in changes to the contract, they will probably scrap the bid and start all over again.

I once asked why it takes so long to release the results when a computer can just spit it out in a few seconds. The answer is that the results have to be "massaged" to fit the company's best interests. They will release certain individuals from freezes and freeze some near retirement when it makes financial sense. This causes many changes and has to be done manually.