Darwin award

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CaptainHaddock
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Darwin award

Post by CaptainHaddock »

interesting rundown on this accident through the Darwin Awards. :roll:
definitely survival of the fittest

4-1-0 Club
2004 Darwin Award Nominee
Confirmed True by Darwin
(14 October 2004, Missouri) When Peter and Jesse wanted to see what their new ride could do, like many young men, they got more than they bargained for. It was all fun and games until the vehicle stalled. In most cases this wouldn't be a serious problem -- but Peter and Jesse stalled at 41,000 feet.
You see, they weren't pushing the old man's car to the limit. They were flying a 50-passenger jet, a Bombardier CRJ200. Fortunately, there were no passengers aboard to share the fatal consequences.

Jesse, 31, was captain of Pinnacle Airlines Flight 3701, and Peter, 23, was the co-pilot. They were transporting an empty plane from Little Rock, Arkansas to Minneapolis, where it was needed for a morning flight. They decided to see what that baby could do. Their fun began while ascending, as they pulled 1.8 G's in a maneuver that activated an automatic stall avoidance system.

Then they decided to "forty-one it," take the jet to 41,000 feet--eight miles--the maximum altitude the plane was designed to fly. The thrust of the engines pressed them into their seats with 2.3 times the force of gravity as they soared ever higher, laughing and cursing in a friendly manner, ignoring the overheating engines, and the stick shaker that warned they were operating outside of safe aerodynamic parameters.

At this point, Air Traffic Control contacted the pilots to find out what they were up to. A female controller's voice crackled over the radio: "3701, are you an RJ-200?"

"That's affirmative."

"I've never seen you guys up at 41 there."

The boys laughed. "Yeah, we're actually a, there's ah, we don't have any passengers on board, so we decided to have a little fun and come on up here."

Little did they know that their fun was doomed when they set the auto-pilot for the impressive climb. They had specified the rate of climb rather than the speed of the climb. The higher the plane soared, the slower it flew. The plane was in danger of stalling when it reached 41,000 feet, as the autopilot vainly tried to maintain altitude by pointing the nose up.

"Dude, it's losing it," said one of the pilots.

"Yeah," said the other.

Our two flying aces could have saved themselves at that point. An automatic override began to pitch the nose down to gain speed and prevent a stall. Unfortunately, Jesse and Peter chose to overrule the override. Oops. The plane stalled.

"We don't have any engines," said one.

"You gotta be kidding me," said the other.

Jesse and Peter still might have saved themselves. They were within gliding range of five suitable airports. Unfortunately, they did not reveal the full extent of thier difficulties to the controller. They said that they had lost only one of the two engines. They glided for 14 full minutes, losing altitude all the way. As they drifted closer and closer to the ground at high speed, still unable to get the engines restarted, they finally asked for assistance: "We need direct to any airport. We have a double engine failure."

Unfortunately, it was too late. "We're going to hit houses, dude," one of pilots said, as they desperately tried to reach an airport in Jefferson City. They missed the houses and the runway, crashing two and a half miles from the airport. Both men died in the crash.

"It's beyond belief that a professional air crew would act in that manner," said a former manager of Pinnacle's training program for the Bombardier CRJ200.
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TOGA Descent
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Post by TOGA Descent »

Would it surprise anyone to know that one of the most common phrases at the end of the Cocpit Voice Recorder - just prior to the accident - is... "Watch This!"

Condolences to their families, but geez...what were they thinking?
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costermonger
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Post by costermonger »

Is it just my interpretation, or does the author think the engines quit when an aircraft stalls? I mean.. I shouldn't be suprised that it's a bit over simplified, and it's obviously geared towards a non-aviation savy audience, but geeze..
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Blakey
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Post by Blakey »

It is possible for a person, ignorant of the subject matter, to take several absolutely true facts and make an incorrect conclusion from them. I am not checked out on the RJ but I can assure you that they were not pulling up to 41,000' at 2.3 Gs! They might have started their climb at that rate but they were not maintaining it through 40,000'!. The aircraft was certified to operate at 41,000 and they thought they were operating it within it's envelope. Yes, they were seeing "what it would do" and they may have selected "V/S" instead of "IAS" on the autopilot leading to a deep stall and the crash.

I have had an aircraft to the edge of it's envelope just to see what it was like. Perhaps I was foolish to do so. They were within the envelope the aircraft was certified for and, if they were foolish and unprofessional, then they paid a very high price for it! I disagree with the sentiment expressed in this article.
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Post by bobcaygeon »

Hey buddy ever hear of "coffin corner" or "behind the power curve"????
Yeah you can fly an RJ to 410 but you have to be ahead of the power curve, above your stall speed, and below your Vmo. This window can be as low as 10-15kts and even turbulence can cause a stall with the liklihood of losing 2-3000 ft to recover. They left out the fact that the pilots had switched seats and didn't switch back til about 15000 ft and that the captain had gone to the back for a beer


Not my idea of professionalism
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complexintentions
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Post by complexintentions »

Umm, actually there is a significant amount of ignorance about this flight even on this thread. The captain was not getting a beer (though a joke was made, he went to get a Pepsi). They certainly were not within the envelope the aircraft was certified for...just because the published ceiling is 410 doesn't mean the a/c can achieve that at any weight/temp/rate of climb!

If you want to read a decent analysis of what happened, try here:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science ... 56137.html

If you want to truly get chills and be glad you didn't put your family members on this flight, here's the CVR transcript:

http://media.popularmechanics.com/docum ... actual.pdf

Sounds like Beavis and Butthead.

(Second link requires Adobe Acrobat Reader)

Basically they didn't understand basic principles of operating a jet, a very underpowered one at that, and then compounded the errors by overriding the stick pusher multiple times. Overtemped the sh&t out of the engines and then duh, couldn't get them relit. And oh yeah...didn't give ATC a clue as to the seriousness of the situation (if they even realized it themselves.)

At least there were no pax to pay for it.
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Blakey
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Post by Blakey »

bobcaygeon wrote:Hey buddy ever hear of "coffin corner" or "behind the power curve"????
Yeah you can fly an RJ to 410 but you have to be ahead of the power curve, above your stall speed, and below your Vmo. This window can be as low as 10-15kts and even turbulence can cause a stall with the liklihood of losing 2-3000 ft to recover. They left out the fact that the pilots had switched seats and didn't switch back til about 15000 ft and that the captain had gone to the back for a beer


Not my idea of professionalism
Oh, you mean like in the A310 I have several thousand hours in? Yes, I've heard of those things. Is that what the pretty red lines mean?

You are correct that changing seats in the middle of an emergency and the Captain having left the First Officer alone in the cockpit at 41,000' would be very unprofessional and even foolhardy. I seem to have overlooked those points in the passage I read. I have never heard that the Captain had "gone to the back to get a beer". I would not only agree that this would be unprofessional and illegal (Assuming he was to consume it while on duty.) but I question where this information comes from and how they would know?

If what you say is true, they were indeed an unprofessional crew and I would have to change my opinion.
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Post by Hedley »

And people wonder why I dislike flying commercially ...
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Post by fingersmac »

Just read the CVR transcript and it will show you unprofessional they were.
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niss
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Post by niss »

I read the CVR transcript too....pretty chilling.
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Post by . ._ »

There's no way I'll jinx myself and say, "That'll never happen to me." on this one.

I hope it never happens to me. That would be one scary way to finish off life.

-istp :?
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Bede
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Post by Bede »

What a bunch of idiots. They said they were accelerating through Vt, which would be about 170 KIAS at their weight.
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Post by wannabatp »

So what does it actually mean when they say they werent getting N2? ANd whats with the engine oil warnings? Low pressure or low quantity? and what affected the oil to cause the warnings? Engines burnt out?

Just trying to understand why the engines didnt relight, and I know nothing about jets.
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Bede
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Post by Bede »

On the CRJ, you get an oil pressure warning message on the EICAS when the engines are shutdown. N2 needs a higher speed to windmill than N1, and it is likely that the N2 section froze and wouldn't relight.
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Glory.
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Post by Glory. »

where is this script?

I really dont believe this story :roll:
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ei ei owe
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Post by ei ei owe »

Hows can you say that? Haven't you read the previous posts? Of course it's true!
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Post by costermonger »

Glory. wrote:where is this script?

I really dont believe this story :roll:
NTSB report: http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2005/Pinnacle/default.htm

CVR transcript (pdf): http://media.popularmechanics.com/docum ... actual.pdf
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Post by bob sacamano »

Hedley wrote:And people wonder why I dislike flying commercially ...
I'm with you on this one.

Where is it that I read someone in their C421 in the back seat getting their groove on while the autopilot flies? :lol:
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Post by Hedley »

Yeah, two is a pretty tight squeeze in an Airbus or Boeing lav, and when the flight attendants figure out what's going on, they pound on the door, hollering, "You can't do that in there", which is pretty silly because of course I am. All that commotion outside does make it kind of difficult to concentrate on the task. Combined with the cramped quarters, yeah, I'd have to say that I really do prefer to not travel commercially ....
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