Phony hours on resume

[flingwing206]

Need to settle a debate.

Job says 2,000 hours needed. You have 1,400 but say you've got 2,000+ on your resume.


Is this fraud?

?

[wrenchturner]

Are employers allowed to look at your logbook? I would suggest perhaps not doing it. If they found out later you lied, within your probabtionary period, I would think you'd be fined, justifiably. Maybe the 2000 hours is an insurance requirement?

[phillyfan]

That's taking a hell of a risk. You had better not bend an airplane while employed with the operation or you are screwed.
In my experience somebody who bullshits there time can usually be found out on the first training flight.

[just curious]

Resume fraud if detected will see you lose your job.
Air Canada fer instance has walked guys out of groundschool and into the street for it, and TC has fired inspectors.
It isn't limited to the probationary period either.

[dangerous]

Who cares if it's fraud or not. It's not right. It's just stupid. Don't do it.

[Gong show]

Hi. Long-time lurker, I must jump in on this one...

How about guys in the bush adding 0.2 or 0.3 hours to each leg when basically zero taxi time is ever needed? It was kind of irritating to fly my butt off for two seasons only to hear Johnny down the road padded his hours this way. Doesn't sound like much but it adds up to at least a couple of hundred hours after two seasons.

Anyone else know of guys with a funny pen?

[looproll]

It's just an f-ing number. 1400 is so close to 2000. Can you really tell the difference between a 1400hr pilot and a 2000hr pilot? Hell, I've seen 250 hour pilots show superior judgement and skill over that of someone with +1000hrs logged legit, so big deal if you ink 600 in.

[TG]

Then I guess you are one of those that won't be bothered to discover that the car they just bought has in fact......
Couple of thousand more km then what the hub is showing !?

You can be lucky with it and not get a lemon!

Same stuff.

[MAG1]

If you pad your log book you're a liar and a cheat. Work your way up the ladder. That's how real men and woman do it.

[TC Guy]

It's just an f-ing number. 1400 is so close to 2000. Can you really tell the difference between a 1400hr pilot and a 2000hr pilot? Hell, I've seen 250 hour pilots show superior judgement and skill over that of someone with +1000hrs logged legit, so big deal if you ink 600 in.

I would suggest that if a person is doing this, they might "cut corners" in other ways, at the expense of a safe operation. Does this happen? Yes. Should it happen? NO. You cannot justify this kind of fraud (and yes, you are leaglly liable if you knowingly lie) to me, or (in my opinion) to any ethical pilot. What is next? Weight and balance? Fuel load? Maintenance?

How would I deal with someone that "tricked" me into hiring them because of this? They would no longer be employed, and would have a negative reference.

The people that are new in the industry may not be aware of this, but the Canadian aviation industry is very small. News of this kind of practice spreads quickly. Do you really want to take the chance? Is it worth your career?

For those of you that think it is just a number... maybe it is. But it goes much deeper than that. Trust. God knows you need to trust the people you work with in this industry.

Fly safe. Please.

-Guy

[gumbofats]

TC is right on here.

I have seen it......and fuccceked it. Eventually the ones who watched it happen.... will be the ones you have to work with..... or want to work for...........

Cheaters are named and they get caught.

If you are out there giggling as a kid who has advanced sooooo far and laughed while others legitamitly strived for experience......wait.

You'll get caught and be fired.

Meantime @#$! YOU!

You are a dick! If you take this job so lightly that you disrespect the rest of us try and admit your fallacy in front of 99% of your coworkers...please let it be me........

Never lie about your logbook, it's your honour.

Gumbo

[Walker]

Humm… Im going to have to disagree with you on one point you made TC; (good post btw) From a legal(criminal) point of view I would suspect a funny number on a résumé by its self would be hard to prove as fraud, however if your logbook had funny numbers too; then I would imagine it would get a whole lot easier to go after someone…
So fraud…. Maybe maybe not, but DEFFINITALLY a bad Idea…. And one HUGE thing that I am surprised no one has mentioned yet, Insurance! A plane gets bent, the policy called for min 2000 hrs for any crew; someone in Switzerland finds out…. Heads will roll…………………\

NOW another issue, an employer highers you, trains you up PPC etc… finds out; fires you highers a new guy, trains her/him. They would be within the law to launch a civil suit against you to recover the money they lost as a result of your actions…

Furthermore in the realm of civil suites, say you were in a plane that got bent, wasn’t your fault, no one found out about your funny numbers… 20 years down the road you have a nice fancy job, nice house etc… The mean old men from Switzerland get wind of your numbers “some how” it MAY be possible for them to come after you personally for the loss that they had to pay out that 20 years ago, I seem to recall one of my law proffs saying statute of limitations things get funny when insurance gets involved…

[Cat Driver]

Hours logged are not a measure of a persons true worth.

Dishonesty is something that is unacceptable, period.

Cat

[CAL]

Fudging 600 hours is simply wrong. If you had 1900 maybe I can see you being generous on the leg times at your current employer to get a better job but to simply sit there in the evening and make up 600 hours worth of flights?....thats basically a years worth of flying with some companies....be honest with yourself and your employer and when it comes ATPL time I bet transport may ask about some of those flights

[Wasn't Me]

The fact that a question has to be asked makes me wonder about the state of aviation. "Is lieing acceptable ?" . Parker pen has been used by a few pilots to get ahead most get caught thank GOD.

[U/S]

I know two guys that have padded their log books and both of them are well ahead of me in terms of their careers, and that really pisses me off. Every hour in my log book is legit. I hope they both get caught but I don't want to be the one to blow the whistle. There is enough bullshit in this industry already.
Hours are not a measure of a person's worth as Cat pointed out but there aren't any other good ways of judging someone's experience other than by the hours in their book. By fudging your hours and adding 600 Parker pen hours you are telling someone you have a years more experience than you really do. If you do it I hope you get caught. You are taking jobs from honest people who have had to work their asses off to get every hour in their log books.

[Hedley]

Heck, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Anyone wants some more hours, I'd be glad to sell you some of mine - not like I need it for anything!

[Mitch Cronin]

Heck, I don't see what all the fuss is about. Anyone wants some more hours, I'd be glad to sell you some of mine - not like I need it for anything!

So then comes the question... of how much value (to an airline job that is) would a 1000 hrs of hanging upside down in a Pitts be?

[TC Guy]

Humm… Im going to have to disagree with you on one point you made TC; (good post btw) From a legal(criminal) point of view I would suspect a funny number on a résumé by its self would be hard to prove as fraud, however if your logbook had funny numbers too; then I would imagine it would get a whole lot easier to go after someone…
So fraud…. Maybe maybe not, but DEFFINITALLY a bad Idea…. And one HUGE thing that I am surprised no one has mentioned yet, Insurance! A plane gets bent, the policy called for min 2000 hrs for any crew; someone in Switzerland finds out…. Heads will roll…………………\

The insurance was the point I was trying to make with respect to Liability.

Where things get sticky is where you submit your documents to Transport Canada for licencing purposes. You are stating that the information you have provided is, to the best of your knowlege, accurate.

Prohibitions

7.3 (1) No person shall

(a) knowingly make any false representation for the purpose of obtaining a Canadian aviation document or any privilege accorded thereby;

...

Contravention of subsection (1)

(2) Every person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Making false representation (fraud) is a criminal offense, and you could be put in jail. Unlikely, but possible.

I must admit-- it scares me to see some people actually understand or defend this practice. Remember: these pilots that have to cheat themselves into a job will be more likely to work for those operators who cut corners on maintenance, falsify weight and balance, push weather... because they will be more likely to accept these activities. The public and aviation community get to pay the price.

I do process some ATPL applications for both Helicopter and Aeroplane. If I believe someone is knowingly making false representation in their logbooks for the purpose of obtaining an aviation document, I will send it to enforcement and refuse to issue. You can be assured of that.

Just don't do it. Take the high road.

-Guy

[KAG]

Need to settle a debate.

Job says 2,000 hours needed. You have 1,400 but say you've got 2,000+ on your resume.


Is this fraud?

?

Fraud no.
Lieing yes. Misrepresentation yes. A waste of the employeers time most definately. A good reason to get black listed, and rightly so.

[CAL]

the vote says it all....

[Wasn't Me]

The vote says 5 pilots think it's OK to Lie about log book entries that's 5 to many

[goldeneagle]

Need to settle a debate.

Job says 2,000 hours needed. You have 1,400 but say you've got 2,000+ on your resume.


Is this fraud?

?

If you present me with a resume that says 2000 hrs, I'd expect you actually have them. If you dont, then you've lied to me. If I hired you, at some point, you'll be presented with a piece of paper to fill out for the insurance company, and you will have to put your hours down there too. If you have 1400, and you write down 2000, now it becomes fraud. If you later bend an airplane, and there's liability suits involved, the insurance company is within thier rights to withold coverage, pilot experience has been fraudulently represented.

As a commercial operator, I'm now between a rock and a very hard place. Liability exposure out the ying-yang, insurance companies backing out of paying, and I'm stuck holding the bag. My only recourse would be to sue some deadbeat pilot that likely doesn't have any assets worth the effort anyways.

You can rest assured, if it's ever discovered that the flight time you have respresented is not kosher, you will be shown the door immediately. No question, no excuses, no muss, no fuss, simply escorted off the premises with termination papers in hand that definitively state 'fired'. My next course of action will be to write a letter to my insurance provider with detailed explanation, and a photocopy of the termination papers. I will include a copy of the resume as originally submitted, to show that due dilligence was initially performed. In this modern age, where such things all happen electronically anyways, I'll probably be tempted to cc the note off to a few more of my peers, more people that hold the job title 'chief pilot', just for thier own reference.

From that day forward, for the rest of your flying career, expect one little detail to keep popping up. Any time your name is submitted for coverage on a named pilot policy, the responce will come back 'denied'. You are now excluded from working for 75% of the small operators out there, and, with less than 2000 hours, even in today's hiring climate, that makes the aviation industry look pretty bleak.

The primary job of a pilot is to assess and manage risk. Lying on the resume involves an element of risk. If you consider that an acceptable risk, then it's quite likely you are the wrong candidate to operate an aircraft, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one to interview pilots that would feel that way. My customers are to important to entrust thier lives to a flight crew with bad risk assessment skills.

In the long run tho, it's probably not as bad as most here seem to think for the industry. You would represent yet another pilot that spent the $50K on flight training, and didn't progress to the upper echelons of the industry. That vacancy means theres room for one more student at the lower levels, good business for the flight schools. There are a few honest instructors that logged some good PIC time at your expense, and, they will get more when your replacement shows up in the system. By the time that candidate has reached cpl+mifr there's a hundred more real hours to be logged by folks that will get where they want to go, thru honest work.

[cougr41]

I have known pilots who BS their way through many things. Some will tell you they have been partying all week when they were at home. Some will tell you they have a million bucks in the bank when they are nearly broke. Some will even tell you about non-existent girl friends.

But in all honesty I have never knowingly hung around with a pilot who would lie about his / her time.

To me and those I work with - time is sacrosant. NOt only would I fire you if I found out you lied, I would work very hard to be sure everyone knew why you were fired. There are ways to do this without running into trouble with various confidentiality laws.

I will also admit that if I knew you were doing this and you wanted to use me as a reference - well, it would not be wise. Right is right and wrong is wrong.

You lie you may put the company at risk. If you work for the company - what ever the company - you never do this. You may even put the client(s) at risk. You certainly put yourself at risk.

You also prove the amount of integrity you have. Which is zilch.

Really have to admit this one gets me a bit worked up.

Time is truth and truth is time. NEVER lie about your time. Wine - women - song - oh, and fishing. These are all acceptable. Lying about time in the book - simply not on.

Oh - and what goldeneagle said too.

[TC Guy]

no.
Lieing yes. Misrepresentation yes. A waste of the employeers time most definately. A good reason to get black listed, and rightly so.

I dunno, KAG.

fraud
1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.
2. A piece of trickery; a trick.
3.
a) One that defrauds; a cheat.
b) One who assumes a false pose; an impostor

Seems to fit to me.

-Guy