Debauchery over transponder codes on the west coast….

[justplanecrazy]

My dearest of Friend; I do suggest you read a bit more clearly before “going off on some crazy rant…”

What legal authority does Nav Can have to say I MUST use a telephone (IE If I refuse to and demand that they do it over VHF are they legally compelled to comply?)

NOW what I would also like to know VERRY much, If one demands to do it over VHF is there a legal responsibility for ATC to comply??? Not that I want to make life harder for ATC, they have saved my life before and I have the utmost respect for them, but this seems to me to be more of a Nav Canada business decision than ATC not wanting to type stuff up anymore…. \\\

If this isn't suggesting that if you are not legally compelled to call the center then you're going to screw ATC and go anyway even though they saved your life, then I don't know what is. And if you weren't taking the side of the student when he forgot to get a code and was told to come back when he had one, then I guess I was mistaken.

however my question still stands as I personally feel there is more politics behind the curtain here than the general public is being told… IE something involving money and staffing….
The fine people who answer our calls on the radio and on the phone I suspect have very little to do with policy changes of this magnitude; however irregardless if they are responsible or not WE the tax paying citizens of this country do have to deal with the system…

My dearest of Friend; I do suggest you read a bit more clearly before “going off on some crazy rant…” I guess I have to spell this out in plain english. This is not a policy change, it's an equipment change. We never had to type anything before, it was simply pen and paper. Now that we have computer programs that cut down 90% of the communications that we do off of the radio, there has to be changes in other areas to make it work. People have to call for a code and give their intentions in advance.

Yes if you're waiting 30min for a code or getting misdirections from ATC then there is a problem with a system. As with any new equipment it'll take some time to iron out the wrinkles. What surprises me is in the 15 or more other towers that have switched to this system, I've never heard anyone complain until Victoria.

Consider this, right now you have to spend that 5 min. idling, waiting for long winded Wendy to finish telling clearance about how she's planning on flying by the house with the pretty fence and then climb to 5,000 to get a better look before coming in for one circuit then out to Active Pass to watch the Ferries then a quick stop at that little airport with the potholes oh what's it called...

With the new system, once it gets working properly, you simply call the number 5-10min. in advance, (that's how it works after its running properly) give your intentions, get a code and have no delays on frequency with the engine running. What does 5 min in your Seminole cost, $25? The students should be jumping for joy, it saves them enough money to afford a Mcdonalds special for a week, the instructor on the other hand loses 0.1 in the log book so I can understand your anger.

Oh and Walker, I'm not going anywhere near your panties, I was asking if you wanted the company to clean them.

[Hedley]

What surprises me is in the 15 or more other towers that have switched to this system, I've never heard anyone complain until Victoria

You're not talking to very many pilots, I guess. Here at Ottawa they've instituted the same Nazi transponder code policy, and it's just yet another reason to stay away from Ottawa.

Let me count the ways:

1) expensive 100LL
2) airport landing fee
3) Nazi transponder policy
4) Navcan daily fee

GA can take a hint. Stay the hell away from any of the Nazi towers unless you're IFR. I can understand that. But why not be honest and admit it, instead of spewing propoganda at us like a politician?

[justplanecrazy]

Hedley, its not propoganda. I honestly don't find the system to be a hassle and I prefer it both as a controller and a pilot. I fly out of Ottawa now and then and I was an instructor for a while before I started controlling. Granted, I haven't spent a lot of time in the lounge since things have changed.

If this is a reduction in service I don't see how. It makes the controllers job easier, reduces frequency congestion and they had to start a call center to hand out transponder codes. For once NC is paying more money to make our work easier. You might not notice it for the five minutes that you're on frequency but I'm on frequency day after day and it is a significant difference.

I'll be the first to complain about the landing fees at CYOW and how it kills GA in the capital, it's pure B.S. On the other hand, this equipment and transpoder code assignment lowers controller workload with a very small increase in pilot workload prior to flight at no cost to you.

[Hedley]

a very small increase in pilot workload

I'm sure the Ottawa airport authority would similarly argue that their landing fee is a "small burden".

I'm sure NavCan would similarly argue that their daily movement fee is another "small burden".

I'm sure the FBO's would argue that their higher 100LL prices are yet another "small burden".

Now you're increasing the hassle factor because your software was designed poorly.

Bought an airline ticket recently? You add up all your "small extras" and it can double the cost of the fare.

A little more honesty, and less obnoxious propoganda, please. You want less aviation, I promise you, your wish will come true. We understand quite clearly that VFR traffic is a second class citizen in Canada, much like a homeless person in the street, and it would be ever so much more convenient if we simply went away.

[justplanecrazy]

Hedley get a grip. You're not being charged a thing, its a freaking phone call, no charges at all, less than 3 min on the phone. Yes the new equipment requires each pilot to say their intentions over a phone instead of a radio frequency which would probably take 3 min. anyways and in return the controllers can concentrate on controlling. What the hell does that have to do with airline ticket fares or gas prices??

It's the same thing as you closing your own flight plan. Why should we do your clerical work when it takes a few seconds and doesn't cost a penny. And if you really want to get into this, why should Joe blow's $35,000 income have taxes taken off it for any sort of service provided free when you fly your $150,000 cessna into an international airport? Flying is a privilege and a bit of hassles for a free service should be greeted with a thankfull attitude.

I can't believe that you're comparing yourself to a homeless person on the street. Are you really that arrogant that you feel that a person should not complain for his tax dollars going to provide a bunch of rich bastards with their own aircraft flying into international airports??? But on the other hand you have no problem complaining about having to make a free phone call before using this free service???? What right do you have to fly into an airport built by the public when they have no right to fly in your plane? Yes, when it comes to commercial or training flights, the public should pay for this free service but a rich ass private pilot with his own plane? Give me a break... pay for the service and deal with the hassles or build your own airport.

[Hedley]

pay for the service

Now we come to the crux of the matter.

Even before I pay NavCan's fees, I have already paid for what NavCan does, because of my incredible income tax burden, and fuel excise taxes.

You will respond that NavCan doesn't get any of those taxes any more.

I will respond that NavCan was a dumb shit for negotiating a poor deal, and your stupidity isn't my problem.

From here, it sure looks like you want multiple taxation.

Please do @#$! RIGHT OFF with your Nazi towers, suboptimal software, and multiple taxation arrogance, ok dude?

[justplanecrazy]

hahahahhaaha... wow rich and stupid who would have thought. Our taxation is supposed to go for public transit ie. commercial airlines, not for you to fly your private aircraft at a lower cost.

Why the hell should I have to contribute to keep your personal flying costs down. You're a rich bastard who takes advantage of the free flight services across this country with your $130,000 aircraft. To top it off you spit on the services you're given by bitching about having to pick up a phone and talk to someone for free. When I was getting paid $35,000 annual salary to fly the public around, I was forced to contribute to your BS rich ass luxury hobby, and I couldn't even afford to rent a cessna 150 for an hour to do my own flying. But hey feel free to cry, I feel your pain, I mean I know someone who bought a $150,000 boat the other day and was shocked to find out that they had to pay dock fees, harbour fees, gas taxes and licencing fees. Shouldn't my taxes be paying for that?

Now I don't want to loop all the private GA pilots into one lump. I know several that operate their aircraft mainly in a private setting at no cost to the tax payer and who are extremely gratefull for the free services that exist such as flight planning and ATC. On the other hand you're a rich ungratefull prick and I don't mind calling you out on it.

[Cat Driver]

Hedley, I also am an airplane owner however I am not rich, in fact I can't afford to insure the thing much less pay all the other "small" fees.

If what this guy is saying is true...

" On the other hand you're a rich ungratefull prick and I don't mind calling you out on it. "

Could you buy my Aerobat from me so I can get completely out of aviation except for a homebuilt?

Then I would forgive you for being rich and that would show justplaincrazy that you are not really a prick.

Cat

[justplanecrazy]

Cat give me a break.

An Aerobat nowadays can sell for 50k U.S. That's more than the 15 times the price of my car and 1/3 the price of my house and I'm supposed to pay money so you can fly it cheaper???

If you don't like the fees, move to an uncontrolled airport and only fly into uncontrolled airports. You'll pay nothing and still have flight plans and weather service etc. free of charge.

It brings a tear to my eye just thinking about you owning a 70,000 dollar plane that you can just barely insure and how you have to pick up a phone and get a transponder code before you can fly it anywhere. In fact why don't we start a charity service. I'm sure the general public will feel your pain and be more than willing to chip in some dough over and above what their taxes have already contributed.

GET A GRIP!!!!!

[Cat Driver]

WOW!!!

Justplaincrazy you are obviously way ahead of me when it comes to the value of an Aerobat.

I have had it for sale for over a year at $50,000 and no takers yet. So why don't you sell it for $70,000 and you can keep the extra $20,000.

As to the transponder code thing, I have not flown my airplane in Canada for several years so getting a transponder code has not been a problem for me.

This just might be your day to pick up an easy $20,000 so cheer up.

Cat

[TC Guy]

This just might be your day to pick up an easy $20,000 so cheer up.

Cat

Darn it Cat... you gave me that deal first!!! You can't make me share... you can't!



-Guy

[Cat Driver]

TC Guy.....you sell it for $70,000 and I'll give you $22,000, cash, no paper trail no record of any kind that you even exist.

There that should make your day.

[Cat Driver]

TC Guy.....you sell it for $70,000 and I'll give you $22,000, cash, no paper trail no record of any kind that you even exist.

There that should make your day.

[groundtoflightdeck]

I remember having to call for a code to fly from Abbotsford to Victoria in 2000, so I don't know that it is that far fetched that they filtered it down to local victoria traffic.

[TC Guy]

TC Guy.....you sell it for $70,000 and I'll give you $22,000, cash, no paper trail no record of any kind that you even exist.

There that should make your day.

LOL.. you just did.

-Guy

[polythene_pam]

hedley, man, you DO need to get a grip....

The fact is, if your little airport has become busy, things need to change. YES, politics may be involved. An airport becomes busy when the larger regional or major airlines up their scheds there... THis brings all kind of money to the airport and to town. Money does run our society, sorry to say. GA is the bottom of the totem pole. In the interests in safety, atc has to place restrictions on traffic. If you're not bringin in the dough, your're getting bumped.

Now, you complain bitterly about "multiple taxation" for your services that you recieve. Now, assuming navcanada was publicly funded (which it isn't), you should be happy. If the general public are paying for a service that only a small few use, then those users are always getting a good deal.

Now, I don't understand where you stand on this issue: you complain about being taxed for service, then you complain about the user fees.... What, do you think it's cheap to pay controllers, maintain navaids, plan airspace, etc etc? Or do you just want something for nothing, like the homeless guy?

Now, when Navcanada tries to increase the capacity of the aispace, cut costs and save you money, you STILL aren't happy! they institute a system where they can pay $10/hr call centre people to hand out tx codes and listen to ga's intentions instead of paying an expensive controller to do it. They can now run MORE traffic in and out of the airport because of the decreased controller workload and freed up rt air time. in non-peak times they can save money by staffing fewer controllers.

But not good enough for hedley. You'd rather navcanada WASTE your fees by having controllers do what a call centre person will do for cheaper.

It seems to me that navcanada iis NOT run like the government... Since 'privatisation', they have become quite a trim organisation. Like any large company, there may be a few circumstances where money was wasted, but they generally pinch pennies in any area they can.

So, what's your solution, HEDLEY and CAT?? Would you rather have NO nav service? the public tax dollar pay? ONLY large airlines pay? Or how bout User pay (this means you if you've ever used an mf, ndb, ils, wx briefing, etc)? What's your solution?

Oh, and cat, I'd have to agree with planecrazy.... You'll be pretty hard up to find sympathy from anybody. Whether you spent 20 or 80k on your airplane, The fact is, you enjoy a very expensive hobby. If you can't afford to fly around for fun all the time, I say BOO FRICKEN HOO... you just seem like an old grump who likes to come on here to biatch about stuff. You offer no useful alternate solutions or suggestions. Just biatching.

I, however, come here to rant at you guys, not biatch!

[Walker]

Points of ponderance…

With the new system, once it gets working properly, you simply call the number 5-10min. in advance, (that's how it works after its running properly) give your intentions, get a code and have no delays on frequency with the engine running. What does 5 min in your Seminole cost, $25? The students should be jumping for joy, it saves them enough money to afford a Mcdonalds special for a week, the instructor on the other hand loses 0.1 in the log book so I can understand your anger.

Hummmm….. ok so are you saying that we no longer have to call clearance delivery and state our intentions to them? Can I just jump in the plane punch up ground and say “Ground, Whisky Tango Foxtrot, taxi for 09” Hell If this is true then I will totally retract all of my other statements!! (expect for a few questions on the safety of this policy but that’s a minor side note.) But as of right now, IE today I had my students call for the number, we got in the plane and did what we have done since I started flying…
“Clearance this is Katana XXXXX with information Lima, taxi for circuits, request Kilo intersection” (Adding: “Squawking 0453”)

Same normal response form ATC, “bla bla bla contact ground for taxi” Call ground “blab la bla, call tower at Kilo” etc… etc.. etc…

And as to the comment about long winded Wendy, If I still have to make the call to clearance then so will she, and she will do the exact same thing as she has done since she started her license…
So if the logic of this is meant to reduce freq congestions does it mean that I don’t have to use VHF to say what im doing? Yes/No?????? Just taxi for the line and say ready for takeoff?

Im going to go out on a limb here and guess that we still have to call and give our intentions to the local tower too; SO, here is the furtherment to the question (Now I am not a controller so please correct me with any of the below ideas.) If you are going all digital is there really an advantage to sending it to a call center, why not just have the controllers type it at their own terminals; with a well designed UI it could be entered just as fast could it not? Have key commands for the most frequent requests, like Ctrl F would bring up a new form with some basic info already filled in such as VFR circuits, and a free code, enter the ident and hit enter…
Set other commands so Ctrl J could be VFR to the training area and back etc… As each new form pops open a free code is displayed, so ATC gets:

“Clearance this is Katana XXXXX with information Lima, taxi for circuits, request Kilo intersection”
hit Ctrl F, a new form pops open with VFR citicuts and the free code of 4435, ATC responds with the code while entering the ident, they get confirmation, hit enter BOOM its in the network…
__________________

First off, id like some clarification Polythene_pam but are you 100% sure that NC doesn’t get tax $$??? I really don’t know but I find that VERY hard to believe;

On the topic of privatization; It seems there is an Anti money sentiment here, which I could understand (living in Victoria… VERY left wing over here) but at the same time a bit shocked this is a somewhat conservative industry…. But regardless the general public DOES use the system… In fact they use it everyday. What items are effected by aviation; Mail, Parcels, banking materials, A list of consumable cargo many miles long, passenger services, Medivac, to a lesser extent the military, fire crews, wildlife and fisheries patrols, Arial surveys to plan new roads, bridges, track changes in agriculture etc… It should NOT be a pilot/ATC asking why should the tax payers be paying for the infrastructure to this industry… As we ALL know Aviation plays a BIG roll in the economy especially in Canada. To suggest that each carrier should pay for the opp costs brings out a topic any first year econ student can tell you ALL ABOUT… public goods and the free rider problem; do a bit or reading on the topic and if you still want to discuss it I would be more than happy to hear your views…. Hell if they’re good you should find an econ PHd and co publish…

[justplanecrazy]

Walker I think you're finally getting it. When WJA90 files IFR YYJ to YYC via Direct HUH J354 IWACK J503 etc... he doesn't call clearance delivery and say "Victoria Clearance this is WJA90 with Juliet request IFR to YYC via direct HUH J354 IWACK etc..." He already gave that info over the phone and the controller has the beta in front of him.

Same thing with calling the call center, they forward the beta just like the IFR beta and it comes up on our screen. Even before you call on radio, we know what you're planning on doing. Same thing with a VFR flight plan. All you have to do is let clearance know that you're on frequency with the info. They then activate your beta so the ground and then the tower controller will know what you're doing. Also if you're on a flight plan from Houwlskdioely, tower won't have to ask for your point of departure and try and figure out what the heck you just said and how its spelled as it is on the screen in front of them. As well, we don't have to type your times into the Nav Canada Aircraft Movement System for flight tracking as it is already in the system.

I don't know what the controllers in YYJ want specifically but I would highly suggest that you get Graham to set up a fam trip for all the instructors to go visit the tower and ask what is expected. Instead of letting all that steam coming out of your ears go to waste, use it to climb the tower stairs.

If you are going all digital is there really an advantage to sending it to a call center, why not just have the controllers type it at their own terminals

As Pam pointed out, would you rather your fees be spent on a 6 figure pigeon pecking ATC'er who's now looking at a computer screen instead of out the window and Radar or would it not be more productive to hire a $10/hr 300wpm typer?

And Cat, now that I realise your plane is only worth $50k, I'll cancel my cheque to the Cancer Society and send it to you for gas money you poor, poor thing you. The funny thing is that my car is worth $3,500 and my house $130k so your TOY is still worth almost 15 times that of my car and still more than a third of my house.

[Cat Driver]

" The funny thing is that my car is worth $3,500 and my house $130k so your TOY is still worth almost 15 times that of my car and still more than a third of my house. "

*************************************************************

Well justplaincrazy we all make assumptions when posting here on Avcanada and in some cases the assumptions are wrong such as the above assumption made by you.

The Aerobat is not a " TOY " it is one of two airplanes that I invested in to start a flying school several years ago and the difficulty I am having selling it is it has been converted to the Texas Taildragger configuration and thus has a limited market appeal.

When I say I can not afford to insure and fly it it is because it is not a TOY and it would be a waste of money to put it on line and not use it.

Cat

[Cat Driver]

Pam, you posted this in another thread.....


" By the way: 2 years, 4400 posts? WOW, I guess you have much more experience spouting off on forums than I do. congrats. I have a suggestion: get a life. "

Well Pam, for some reason you have issues with anything I post, so lets try another avenue to communicate.

I have a life which includes operating a business that does world wide aircraft delivery and training on specalized aircraft.

We not only do training and international ferry flights we fly and do ground scenes for the movie industry as well as fly in the airshow circuit in Europe.

I am looking for well qualified people who may fit into our business and on the pilot side we require that you have experience in and be able to fly international trips and do so on your own.

At peresent we have several aircraft to move, two in the USA and one from London England to Bangor Maine the other from Johannesburg SA to Reno Nevada.

The pay is above average and the living expenses are above average plus you get to travel all over the world.

Several other qualifications are needed such as you must be able to qualify for the insurance requirements to fly for the big movie companies such as Mirimax and it would be a plus if you can pass the requirements for an airdisplay authorization in Europe.

If you feel you have these qualifiactions and can demonstrate a professional attitude please send me your resume and convince me that you indeed are suitable to fly for us.

By the way Clive, one of my partners has this one running and waiting for the paper work to be finished to move it.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ ... 4engin.jpg

And we need someone that can fly a F100 Super Sabre for a collector.

Cat

[justplanecrazy]

Well then I guess all of my remarks were directed only at Hedley then. But then again is it really an investment??? That's like saying I bought this boat for a fishing charter business but decided not to start the business and have just kept it around for business not pleasure for the last 2 years. If you're just trying to get rid of it, why are you still insuring it???

The pay is above average and the living expenses are above average plus you get to travel all over the world.

Damn old age sucks, you were just trying to prove that you were a poor old man and you go and say something stupid like that. You're rich and own a Toy airplane, the world knows it but I don't think you do.

I think the commercial side of the industry needs to be helped as it is has become not only a rich man's sport but a rich man's way of travel and even a rich man's profession. But to have tax dollars out of my $35,000 salary go towards helping Hedley keep his costs down on his Pitts, is freaking ridiculous. I have to pay a $15 toll fee to drive my car from Vancouver to Kelowna and you're complaining about getting charged $10 to receive control service and runway upkeep, maintenance, AFF, customs, weather Obs, etc. while flying into Ottawa Int'l in your private plane... you are the definition of cheap. Take your cheap ass to Rockliff or Gatineau and pay the $1.50 to get on a bus.

Private aircraft are simply TOYS and people that have the mindset that the public should help keep their toy's costs down are delirious.

[polythene_pam]

WOW!! cat driver, it sounds as though you've been extremely successful in the aviation industry!!

And here I thought that you were hard done by, and barely getting by what with all the navcanada fees, and tc breathing down your neck, forcing you to be safe and follow regulations and such! Damn safety people!

Seems if a guy like you can make it despite all these hardships, it can't be that bad. I guess some people just like to biatch!

[biscayne9]

This discussion has gotten a bit out of hand but I just wanted to shed a little light on the codes issue in the yyj area.

When yyj clearance delivery gives you a code they are doing so via Nards (navcanada auxillary radar display system) These codes are held on a server that can only be seen by other Nards radar displays. These radar displays are located in towers such as yyj, yvr, ynj, yxx, yhc etc etc.

They can also be seen in Fss stations that are also running nards. For example stations like yhc, ycd.

This applies whenever one of these stations gives you a code.. not just yyj clearance delivery. Same thing applies if abbottsford tower or nanaimo fss gives you a code etc etc...

An Ifr controller that is working in yvr center would not be able to see those aircraft tagged up on their primary display (they do however have nards as a backup) All they would see is an aircraft squawking a specific code at the current altitude if the aircraft has mode C turned on with no ident info.

When a controller in yvr center tags up an airplane however, that information is passed down into all of the servers so that all forms of radar would be able to see the datatag info on the aircraft.

Basically when an aircraft is entered into nards only other nards displays would see the tag info but when a center controller inputs the info into their radar (rsit) it is seen system wide.

The reason that yyj now requires you to call for a code is because they are now using a program called Exceeds. This program is basically an electronic version of the strips towers used to use.

Exceeds also automatically inputs information into the program that navcanada uses for billing. So in order for navcanada to get paid that aircraft needs to be entered into exceeds. When you call yvr code to get a squawk code.. that code will automatically show up in exceeds, on all radar displays, and also be entered into the appropriate program for billing.

hope this helps...

[Hedley]

The reason that yyj now requires you to call for a code is because they are now using a program called Exceeds. Exceeds also automatically inputs information into the program that navcanada uses for billing

Gosh, it would sure be terrible if NavCan forgot to bill me for getting a code. I'd hate for that to happen. It would break my heart

[just curious]

Ok…. So…… at least here in Victoria we have recently been introduced to a new procedure to which I personally am getting my panties in a bit of a twist over; ANY non flight planed flights leaving the airport surface MUST call a number in Vancouver to request a transponder code ahead of time. This is inclusive of everything from going out with a student to the practice area, or even doing a single circuit. Any attempt to get this code over VHF is met with “please CALL :1-888-9872-633.” I even heard a vicious rumor (may not be true) that someone on a flight itinerary was flying in from Tofino and when they attempted to enter the zone at Victoria to land was given the Nth degree about not calling in ahead of time on their cell…


I am curious to know:
If other airports have the same policies
What the legitimization of this policy is
What legal authority does Nav Can have to say I MUST use a telephone (IE If I refuse to and demand that they do it over VHF are they legally compelled to comply?)
Am I just being a prude and should I just bend over and be quiet about it….

I left this up to facilitate useful discussion. Now of course its a rich/ poor navcan/pilot pissing match. Since this is a training forum, which is read by impressionable students (as well as less-experienced instructors); I will say this:

It has been the policy of Nav Canada for some time in most major centers that a phone call to the local VTA is required prior to flight. Victoria is not unique in this regard. If you plan to fly, and you are not on a flight plan... Pick up the phone! Even before it became a policy, this would have been a matter of simple courtesy. For that matter, why not just file a flight plan so that your students know how it is done?!

I'll leave this in this forum for a couple more days, and then punt it over to the rant forum, where it belongs.

JC