Western Airliners May Be al-Qaida Target

[mcrit]

Number 1: What ahramin was saying was very far from racist. If you read what he said and think about it he's really advising moderation by saying that we should not judge our brown friends by the colour of their skin, but by what they do.
Number 2: At its root, this whole Al Qaeda situation has nothing to do with religion. It is about power. Certain elements in the middle east want to gain power, and are using religion as the tool. They have access to a vast pool of poor and uneducated people who are dissatisfied. Islam is being used as the common thread used to pull them together and turn them against the west. Those of you with an bit of historical knowledge will recognize this as a page right out of the Nazi's book. Make no mistake, we are fighting a battle with a group of individuals no less dangerous than the Nazi.
So, what does this mean? First off, if we are to win this thing we must be prepared to destroy our opponents completely and without hesitation. Now, before anyone breaks out the 'r' word, take a look at what I said. Please note that I used the word "opponents", not 'muslims' or 'brown people'. I am not proposing genocide.
I am not proposing a traditional war either. A traditional war has the goal of destroying the enemy's material assests. Our opponent's have none to destroy. I propose that we destroy their only resource; the huge pool of poor ignorant peasants they recruit from. If we imporve their life style, they'll not be so easy to recruit. Let's face it, someone with a full belly and an a decent job isn't going to be so keen about dying for allah.

[ramjet]

I can completely understand how many of you are incensed with the unbelievable disgusting actions of extremists and terrorists. But you must use your head and realize that these extremists are an incredibly small minority who certainly do not reflect the views of the vast majority of muslims worldwide. It is the same old story of the few making life difficult for the many. Islam is a religion based on peace and kindness as are all the major faiths of civilization, and like christianity, hinduism, judasim and EVERY other religion, it is used and corrupted by a few sick fucks to gain power and influence over the mob for their own twisted means... the same way the Nazis used christianity and the same way every army in history for that matter has claimed to have god on their side. It is up to us as Canadians, to remain vigilant but not to make dangerous and non-sensical generalizations about people simply because of what they look like and who they pray to or how. It might interest you to know that organised religion has been the cause of more death and destruction than all other causes combined. The only true remedy is through education acceptance and tolerance. Just the way I feel about it.

[North Shore]

Ramjet: Good point - but it does bring up a question - Where are all of the moderate Muslims? Every time I turn on the TV, it seems, I'm treated to the sight of some Imam yelling "death to America, death to the Jews," while all of his followers bellow "allah ackbar." Not one sign or word from the moderates. Where is Cat Stevens these days? How about the Aga Khan? Or is it simply that our media is somehow complicit, by choosing not to show moderation. (does moderation sell newspapers?) I simply refuse to believe that 100% of the Muslim world is against us in the west. I'm sure, like just about everyone else, they'd rather be at home, gardening and raising their children.

[Guido]

Cat:
Why do you think many of the people in the Middle East hate us? Western countries, through their corrupt leadership (Canada included), abuse, use, and rape these countries... If you don't believe that the government is corrupt, there's not a whole lot of point in discussing this, is there? You'd have already believed every word they've told you.
Why do many Canadians dislike the USA? For the same reasons as above, they use us, they abuse us, and they rape our country of its resources. I can honestly understand why the 'terrorists' are doing what they're doing. Don't get me wrong, I think terrorism is completely wrong, but they probably feel that their voices aren't being heard by anyone in the top levels. You can't deny, even for a second, flying two aircraft into the twin towers didn't get the attention of the public.
Agreed, Canada's immigration laws do need work, BUT, they should not preclude anyone with a valid reason for coming to Canada. If you think that an immigrant is stealing your job, YOU should have gotten more education in the first place. This is a free world, people can work wherever they want, and you can bitch if you want, but don't bitch to me. It was your wonderful Conservative government that decided "Free Trade" was a good thing... thanks Mr. Mulroney.

Flyinthebug, I don't believe that it was "tight lips" that caused 9/11. It was the inaction of the president and the top advisors that allowed it to happen. Information may be preparedness, but what the hell are we supposed to do with that information? Be a little more paranoid? A little more suspicious of the guy with the skin of a different shade than ours? Most people are very prejudiced, whether they admit it or not, and the US public seems to eat up these terror warnings as quickly as they come out.
It's great that the information is out there, so we shouldn't be surprised when something happens...
My current line of work is in preventing attacks on aircraft in Canada, I do know what we're up against, and let me tell you, as it stands now, we aren't well enough protected. The fact is, we NEVER will be. Unless you're going to have all of your passengers flying in airline-provided jumpsuits, no carry-on, with an obligatory cavity search prior to flying, there are still going to be attacks, there's not a whole lot of sense wasting energy worry over when it'll happen.


The problem with these forums is that people rarely change their viewpoint, it's just the same dead horse over and over again..

[hz2p]

You might keep in mind that these people are very strongly religious. And we as "infidel dogs" continually blaspheme, in their eyes, by not living our lives by the rules of their particular religion.

It gets worse. The west is incredibly successful, compared to them. So, they live by their rules in poverty, and we blaspheme and prosper. Our society's success is implicit proof of the failure of their religion.

Our very existence is threatening and insulting to these people, though you may be blissfully unaware of it.

Guido: do you want to eliminate the threat of hijacking? Simple. Issue pistols at the boarding gate to all pax who have taken a pistol training course, and the pax surrender them when they get off - check their names off the list.

I know it's not a very Canadian way of doing things (I'm sure the feminists, socialists and vegetarians wouldn't like it very much) and yes, there would be risks involved, but any terrorist that jumped up and started hollering about Allah would suffer from immediate and terminal lead poisoning.

There is no way you can prevent weapons from getting on board an aircraft. Your current rules ensure that only the criminals are armed. Does this arrangement give you job satisfaction?

[Mitch Cronin]

Excellent post Ramjet.

Guido, Re: "Unless you're going to have all of your passengers flying in airline-provided jumpsuits, no carry-on, with an obligatory cavity search prior to flying, there are still going to be attacks"

I think even then, a determined soul could quite possibly bring an aircraft down... not at a place of his choosing perhaps, but down, nevertheless.

The only hope for security, I think, is in making sure the a/c is safe itself... there are too many vulnerabilites in todays aircraft.

[Cat Driver]

Guido :

I guess I have it all wrong, seems what I learned first hand is way off track.

Sorry to have lost your respect.

Cat

[flyinthebug]

Guido: Its obvious you have your finger on the pulse of core of the problem, and all I was suggesting was that we all acknowledge that we have an imminent threat to deal with. Our views are not that far off. I respect your opinion, with due respect to my friend Cat, and his first hand knowledge of things in the middle east. I also have two close friends who used to fly in Saudi and even Palestine, and hearing their stories first hand, may alter your view as well as it did mine. The extremists in Canada and the USA stand out because they number so few, compared to the poplaution of each respective country. However, if you compare the same figures in the middle east, you will find a staggering 600% increase in extremists vs non. They believe god is on their side, and if any western Christian believers truly thought God was leading their charge, and would protect them and take them to heaven when they died, you`d have a several good and decent people prepared to give their lives for their cause. Its quite a bit more "scary" then I think the average Canuck or Yank believes. These people truly believe this is what god has called them to do. The enemy is the enemy period, as I stated previously, I dont care what their skin colour is... If they threaten our freedom, we should ALL take notice and work together to ensure theres no repeat of 9/11. I dont look at everyone with a turban as a terrorist, but I must admit, my head turns more often then it did pre 9/11 when I see people of middle eastern descent. Isnt that the truth for about 95% of us if were going to be honest here? We wont solve the worlds problems on avcanada, but I do enjoy the debate. Fly safe all, Cheers

[Dex]

fatdumbandlazy: There are pictures of prisoners being chewed up by dogs and beaten to death that were not released to the public.

[Guido]

Guido :

I guess I have it all wrong, seems what I learned first hand is way off track.

Sorry to have lost your respect.

Cat

Cat, I just feel that this isn't about religion as much as it is about power. Bush likes to do things 'in the name of Christianity' when we all know damn well he's no good Christian. Bin Laden is just the same from what I can see; he uses Islam as a tool to brainwash folks, just as Western leaders have used Christianity in the same way.

The only reason I got into this debate is because I don't like to see people condemning an entire group of people just because they have different beliefs. Let's try tolerance and understanding. Many among us have a tendency to paint everyone with the same brush, which ticks me off to no end.

flyinthebug, you're right, no one is immune to the effects of prejudice... I even catch myself at work thinking thoughts that I never would have though would go through my head. But I think the fact that I notice that I had those thoughts and redress myself for it shows that we can all learn to beat this kind of prejudice.

As you guys have said, I may be way off... but this is the way I see things. And, Cat, you haven't lost my respect... I just wish we'd all show a little more tolerance when it comes to a subject like this. Comments like the ones that were endorsing the torture of Iraqi prisoners are not helpful in the long run, and might be kept to oneself.

[Cat Driver]

Guido :

I am sure that your feelings are genuine and come from a sense of morality and a beliefe structure based on what you preceive to be truth.

However in the case of these religeous terrorists we have only one way to stop them and that is to kill every one of them that we find.

I cannot comment on what went on with the prisoners that were abused by the Americans in Iraq because we only get the slant that the government want us to have.

I would however point out that the " beheading " of the american in that video was in all likleyhood staged.

I have witnessed a human being beheaded from several feet away and the video does not support that the victim was alive when the cutting off of the head was filmed...I would suggest he was already dead, for sure the heart was not beating due to no indication of blood in the video....when the head is severed there is a very visiable fountain of blood as the heart beats.

If the victim is kneeling the blood will spout about two feet up when the artery is severed.

I suppose there will be some revulsion felt by some reading this, however once again I wish to bring reality into these discussions, maybe that will give pause for thought.

Cat

[...]

Funny how we all got dragged into a 2000 year old war of hatred.
The sad thing is the poison has trickled down to the children. Hate is now as natural as breathing.

[Dex]

I think many do not understand what has been going on in the middle east over the last few decades and why America is so hated in these countries. America has played a very active role in creating the terrorism that exists in the middle east. America is like that redneck who trains his dogs to bite people in the ass and ends up getting bitten in the ass himself. 911 was foreseeable, predictable, inevitable, and preventable.

I think people only need to look carefully at the actions of the president on the day of 911 to see that something doesn't smell right. The president of the United States of America knows the country is being attacked and that he may be a target yet he keeps reading books to children as if nothing is happening; risking the childrens life and his own. Remember his location is public. This is not just a presidential mistake but a secret service mistake as well. The president should have been picked up and carried to a safe location; SOP. Agents train many years preparing for these circumstances and when the country is being attacked their mission is to get the president to a safe place at any cost.

How many terrorists is the United States creating in Iraq right now, all in the name of WMD that never existed and they knew never existed? Both chief UN weapons inspectors said there was little or no chance Iraq had any that were of any threat. http://sass.caltech.edu/events/ritter.shtml please take the time to listen to both MP3's there is alot of interesting stuff there. This is what over 700 US soldiers thought they were fighting for when they went to Iraq and lost their lives.

Or how about the double standard that applies to all middle east countries except Israel. Would that not create terrorism? If America was serious about WMD it would have stood fully behind UN resolution 687. http://www.un.org/Docs/scres/1991/scres91.htm which states:

"Recalling the objective of the establishment of a nuclear-weapons-free zone in the region of the Middle East,
Conscious of the threat that all weapons of mass destruction pose to peace and security in the area and of the need to work towards the establishment in the Middle East of a zone free of such weapons, Conscious also of the objective of achieving balanced and comprehensive control of armaments in the region,
Conscious further of the importance of achieving the objectives noted above using all available means, including a dialogue among the States of the region,".

You remeber this resolution dont you? The one about Iraq. Please read the full resolution in its entirety; Everything was enforced almost to the letter in that resolution with the exception of what I posted above. See the double standard?

Or how about Americas unconditional support of Israel. The United Sates gives over 4 billion a year (14 billion last year) in aid and free military hardware so Israel can commit war crimes. When American made missles are fired into apartment complexes by Israeli (American made) F18's to kill a suspected militant resulting in many others being killed or mamed does that not create hatred for the United States. How bout all the billions America gives Israel so Israel can bulldoze Palestinian's houses and install illegal (unlawful) settlements on occupied territory.

United Nations Resolutions

Resolution 446
of 22 March 1979
1. Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798a ... enDocument

Resolution 465
of 1 March 1980
5. Determines that all measures taken by Israel to change the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure or status of the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, or any part thereof, have no legal validity and that Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in those territories constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/9a798a ... enDocument

Resolution 1994/45
29 July 1994
2. Reaffirms that Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territory, including Jerusalem and other Arab territories occupied since 1967, are and an obstacle to economic and social development;
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/85255a ... enDocument

Resolution /56/61
10 December 2001
1. Reaffirms that Israeli settlements in the Palestinian territory, including Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan are and an obstacle to peace and economic and social development;
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/85255a ... enDocument

STATUTE OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT
Article 8
War crimes
2. For the purpose of this Statute, "war crimes" means:
2(b)(viii) The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/85255a ... enDocument

GENEVA CONVENTION RELATIVE TO THE PROTECTION OF CIVILIAN PERSONS IN TIME OF WAR
Article 49
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm


And BTW United States violates its own laws with its military sales and aid to Israel.

CHAPTER 39 - ARMS EXPORT CONTROL ACT
Sec. 2754. - Purposes for which military sales or leases by the United States are authorized; report to Congress
SubSection 1
Defense articles and defense services shall be sold or leased by the United States Government under this chapter to friendly countries solely for internal security, for legitimate self-defense, to permit the recipient country to participate in regional or collective arrangements or measures consistent with the Charter of the United Nations, or otherwise to permit the recipient country to participate in collective measures requested by the United Nations for the purpose of maintaining or restoring international peace and security, or for the purpose of enabling foreign military forces in less developed friendly countries to construct public works and to engage in other activities helpful to the economic and social development of such friendly countries. It is the sense of the Congress that such foreign military forces should not be maintained or established solely for civic action activities and that such civic action activities not significantly detract from the capability of the military forces to perform their military missions and be coordinated with and form part of the total economic and social development effort: Provided, That none of the funds contained in this authorization shall be used to guarantee, or extend credit, or participate in an extension of credit in connection with any sale of sophisticated weapons systems, such as missile systems and jet aircraft for military purposes, to any underdeveloped country other than Greece, Turkey, Iran, Israel, the Republic of China, the Philippines and Korea unless the President determines that such financing is important to the national security of the United States and reports within thirty days each such determination to the Congress http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/22/ch39.html


And lets not forget the aid that the christian zionists give Israel
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/czionism.html (watch video)
Do you think that could create anger towards America.

I have to go I am out of time and so much more to say. I hope you read my posts carefully and watch and listen to the vids and mp3's. I will finish with one last question.

When does the United States accept responsibility for the terrorism they create?

[N2]

So Dex you really seem to have a hate on for the US too! Are you from the middle east (or family) by any chance?

[Cat Driver]

To those who hate America and live in Canada here is a question.

If it had not been for the military might and the posession of nucular weapons and their defense of Canada with this power over the past sixty years, how would life be in Canada today?

Cat

[hz2p]

Dex: blaming the USA for terrorism would be hilariously funny if it weren't so tragic.

Bottom line is that the overwhelming number of Arabs live in poverty. Their religion and society has failed them. They terribly resent the USA's success.

It is a sad comment on human nature that most people hate a winner. Bill Gates comes to mind. Self-made billionaire. Hated and envied by many with ugly little personalities.

[cedarjet]

How ironic that those people wear american clothes, drive american cars, fly on american built airplanes and video tape murders with camcorders that they sure didn't make!!!! HYPOCRITES!

the clothes were made in taiwan, the car in korea, plane in europe, and video tape in china.

[Dex]

N2: I am of English and Scottish background and I live in Canada. And I do not hate United States. What would lead you to conclude that? I am sure you have the capacity to understand the difference between critisism and hatred do you not?


Cat Driver: I do not hate the United States but I will try to answer your question. Life in Canada would probably be not much different. The "Common Wealth" interests would ensure Canada's resources and economy were well protected.

[Cat Driver]

The commonwealth?

Who exactly is that?

Cat

[N2]

N2: I am of English and Scottish background and I live in Canada. And I do not hate United States. What would lead you to conclude that? I am sure you have the capacity to understand the difference between critisism and hatred do you not?

Wasn't trying to insult you I was just asking because of the stance you have taken. Just comes across as very anti-american. Not saying I am in love with them either but they are a good neighbour to have.

[. ._]

This thread is making my head hurt.

Cat- thanks for the clarification on beheading. I've read on a few web sites how some people thought the guy was already dead. After hearing your first hand testimony, I concur.

-istp

[Dex]

Cat Driver: The fact that you have spelled it correctly makes me assume you are aware of what I was refering to.


N2: I am critical of the United States because the leadership violates the principles and constitution they were sworn to protect. American involvement in the region over the past few decades has been counter productive to the majority of citizens of the United States. They created Saddam and Bin Laden, not to mention installing puppet regimes in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. ; they support and finance Israeli war crimes. They send missles into other countries to blow up a *suspected* chemical weapons factory (ended up being an aspirin factory). This creates terrorism; America has to assume some responsibility in the creation of their terrorism.

[SplitS]

I was in Saudi during those attacks - right across the street those bastards were murdering people.. We could here the gunshots and grenades going off.. I left. The hell with that.

Some of my friends stayed. I wish them well.

SplitS

[just another pilot]

Dex. The world was critical of the USA when they were isolationalists prior to WW1 and WW2. Now the world is critical of their forgein policy? The policy may be intrusive, but we haven't had to send our boys off to WW3 yet.

[Guido]

The policy may be intrusive, but we haven't had to send our boys off to WW3 yet.

"Yet" being the operative word.....