Why choose that school....

aero220 · Post by **aero220** » Fri May 26, 2006 11:26 am

I am doing a bit of further research into the schools located at Calgary(CYYC) and Springbank (CYBW).

If you did your private training at a school located at one of there airports please answer the following few questions;

1)what school did you choose?

2)What factor helped you to make your choice?

3)Are you happy with the choice you made? Would you have chosen a different school knowing what you know now?

4) Any advice that you may be able to give to people in the process of choosing a school?

I have found alot of students who are just getting into flying and choose a school before fully understanding what their needs are.

If you do not want to post the schools name, feel free to PM the information.

Thank you

JULIETTE · Post by **JULIETTE** » Fri May 26, 2006 11:48 am

When was looking for a school, I pretty much just opened the phone book and called the few places with large ads. The companies at the International were all very impressive but I chose to take my training out at springbank to save a few bucks.

The school I choose had just built a big fancy new building with a huge hanger and pilots lounge and restaurant. They seemed to have alot of students so I thought "if they are busy, they must be good". the place was very flashy so I decided to do my training there.

Now that I understand more about the industry, I feel I did make the wrong choice in school selection. The training I received was very poor (which I did not find out until I went to a different school that taught me the proper way) and the school was so overbooked that it ended up costing me alot more because I could never make bookings and it took me about thee times longer than it should have.

My advice for others just looking at schools now is;

-Don't be blinded by the flash. The school with the best decorator is not always the best place to train.

-Take a good look at the booking sheets, If it is more that a month before you can start your training, they are probably too busy to deal with you properly.

-A busy school does not mean they are good, It only means that alot of other people made uninformed decisions.

Good luck in choosing a school!!!

Dojoroboto · Post by **Dojoroboto** » Fri May 26, 2006 12:20 pm

I faced some of the same challenges working with the school that Juliette trained at. Luckily that school was racist and told me they would not train me because I was oriental. They said it was because they could not understand me, but my father is a high school English teacher so I can speak English probably better than they can. I ended up going with my second choice, SATC and have never looked back. The reasons I choose Springbank Air for my licence was they were very organized, had a nice facility, but mostly because of their great instructor staff.

If you are looking for a place to do a private license, make sure to ask lots of questions.

ALWAYS ask to talk to the Chief Flight Instructor, the person who oversees all aspects of the training. If he is too busy to talk to you even if you offer to make an appointment, DO NOT TRAIN THERE. I know one school in the Springbank area where the Chief Flight Instructor(CFI) does not ever fly with students. They might as well just say "We are too good to train you." I can not stress enough how important an approachable CFI is.

By the way, If you do not know who the racist school in springbank is, message me and I will tell you.

FLYaJET · Post by **FLYaJET** » Fri May 26, 2006 8:35 pm

So the school actually told you that they would not teach you cause you were oriental?

I actually did my initial training at that school. Had a great instructor and thought that thier airplanes were in much much much better shape than some other schools on the field. SATC etc. I would probably go back and do it again if i they had more availablity.

There are a couple schools on the field that i would not touch with a ten foot pole. So put in your research, talk to the CFI and go to a school that can provide the ratings etc you might want after you get your private licence. Ex: dont choose the school listed above if you want to make a career out of flying, choose Mt. Royal or Morgan Air.

Saying that, i was also very satisfied with my experience at Mount Royal College about 10 years ago. Great people, equiptment and an enviroment with courses that you would NEVER get at any other school in Calgary. Not to mention the NETWORKING OPPURTUNITIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr.Metro · Post by **Mr.Metro** » Fri May 26, 2006 10:49 pm

I have found alot of students who are just getting into flying and choose a school before fully understanding what their needs are

A very true statement. First decide your needs before you look for a school. When I was starting, my needs were to get the rating I needed to be employable in the industry at a fairly economical way. For those reason I choose Morgan air, of course that was before September 11 so there was no high landing fees and the price for a 172 was comparable to Springbank.

While the training I got was great, looking back I would have probably choose to start my training at a less busy airport that was more suited for training. After my private I did some training at the flying club, Springbank air, and Fly rite.

The flying club seemed very focused on just making money and very little on students needs. This type of attitude would be a good place to train for someone who is not looking to pursue commercial flight training and has a large amount of extra money to spend on this hobby. Their facilities are very nice but just remember, they have to pay for them somehow and you can bet you will spend a premium for all those luxuries.

I found almost the opposite at Springbank Air, they were totally focused on students need and not as focused on just making money. I received alot of briefing time and was never once charged for it, mostly because the people there knew what it was like to be shelling out all that money on your way to a commercial licence. Their facilities were very tidy but with little luxuries. I found the aircraft to be comparable between the 2 schools.

For a change of scenery, I did my multi-IFR at Fly Rite mainly because of their great twin. The training here was definitely geared towards the commercial pilot, Doris really knows what she is talking about. The training was not incredible enjoyable but that was what I wanted, hard training to prepare me for the rest of the industry.

Choosing a school is a very important decision.
If you have the money train at the International.
If you want luxury and are willing to pay for it, as well as not planning on pursuing a commercial licence, go to the Flying club.
If you want a nice well rounded school that is very laid back, fun, and provides good commercial as well as private training on a budget go to Springbank air.
If you want the Hard knocks of commercial flying, and are willing to work your butt off and are willing to sacrifice a bit of enjoyment for great training go to Fly Right.

aero220 · Post by **aero220** » Sun May 28, 2006 8:50 am

Just wanted to thank all the people who are participating in the poll and sending me their personal experiences. I have got over 15 other PM's full of great insight.

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Mon May 29, 2006 1:44 am

Fancy buildings and new paint do not make for good equipment/instruction. you need to pick a school that best fits your needs. A nice CFI and an instructor that doesn't care isn't going to make you a great pilot. This also goes for the nicest instructor but can't meet your training needs. You need to find an instructor that can train you not be your best friend.

Decide if you want to train in YYC or YBW both have their benefits and down falls. YYC has landing fees and longer ground times but you can train to the east and circuits in Beisiker. You will get used to bigger traffic and unsual requests so flying to big A/Ps and controlled Airspace won't bother you. YBW long drive out of the city if you live in the east (>$1 litre). Ground waits can be almost as long as in YYC now. Flight out to the practice area is now just as far as from YYC. Very crowed during weekends and afternoons. ATC is used to students so give you friendly hints and don't get Too worked up if you screw up and if they know you are having issues they will help as much as possible. With the new practise area forced are harder because of the lack of good fields.

Next I suggest you go do a couple Discovery flights, they usually are only $35 and you can see how you interact with the instructor and how nice the internal equipment is. You will also see the average booking time, if the DF is 1-2 weeks away your training will be extented, costing you more money.

No matter what school you decide on remember you are their customer. So if they aren't meeting your needs you have the right to change instructors or even schools.

This all being said I just remembered Okotoks small A/P next to no traffic from the south of the city same drive as to YYC and practice area is only a couple minutes away. A/C I think rent for the same rate as YBW.

A. Thompson · Post by **A. Thompson** » Mon May 29, 2006 9:03 pm

Aero220, PM me if you are really interested in improving things.

PC-12 Flyer · Post by **PC-12 Flyer** » Mon May 29, 2006 10:33 pm

An important thing to point out is that a school is only as good a the instructors and other staff who are working there.

The aviation industry has a very high turn-over rate, so chances are every 5-8 years a school will have an entire new set of staff. Many school were once really great, but now suck or once sucked but are now great simply because the people have changed.

The best example of this is the Mt royal Program. Many of their past grads have moved onto large international jets and are very great pilots. If you asked them they would probably say "I loved Mt. Royal" and recommend it. If you talk to recent grads, they will say it sucked, and it was a horrible experience. The program is still the same but there is just different people running it than there was 10 years ago when those international pilots were trained there.

If someone says they had a great experience with a school, the only way to ensure you have the same experience is to get the same instructor at the same school. A good education starts at the top of the company and good instructors can become horrible if they have the wrong management (mainly chief flight instructor).

I know it has been said here a couple of times but I will say it again
Brand new buildings, aircraft, and simulators are going to do you no good if the people are no good.

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Tue May 30, 2006 11:03 am

PC-12 Flyer you have almost hit the nail on the head. The CFI has a big impact on the school mainly on the desire of the instructors to stay and their attitude toward training. I have seen instructors bad mounth their current company in front of students and any other people hanging around, these students are then going to walk away with the same feelings. But at the exact same school I've seen instructors just as mad at the CFI and give very good instruction and turn out great students. The CFI has a huge impact on the school but the instructors attitude is what the students see and this gives them the impressions they walk away with.

As for Mount Royal I've flown with MJ the Current CFI and he is a very good instructor and nice guy. I was a student before the big colapse and have watched the down fall and am at a loss as to why the program has collapsed, but during my years they had ATPL instructors with plenty of experiance and brought more to your lesson then the basics they made it enjoyable, maybe this is what they lost.

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Wed May 31, 2006 12:09 am

Hey...

I you don't mind, I will give some input here.

A while ago, due to a lot of questions coming to the department from people interested in flight training, but not knowing where to turn, there was a great document produced.

Go figure.

I would suggest you take a look at this:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... U/Menu.htm

and... listen to a lot af great advice in this thread.

Remember... where you train (and how you learn!) is a very personal thing. You have to choose the situation that best fits you.

We all have opinions... you decide.

Good luck!

-Guy

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:46 am

Just ask what kind of experience their instructors have. IMHO, some schools prefer class fours and low time so they can pay them as little as possible. They will be able to teach the exercises well (which is their job), and get you to a flight test standard, but there are intangables that a more seasoned pilot/instructor can pass on merely because of life and flight experience. There is a lot more to aviation than manouvres and regulations.

Any school than passes on experience in favour of cheap labour will not get my endorsement - IMHO. Ask.

Dojoroboto · Post by **Dojoroboto** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:59 pm

There is nothing wrong with training with a class 4

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:12 pm

Dojoroboto wrote:There is nothing wrong with training with a class 4

Did you make the right school choice for your private licence

I'm gonna be a prick, I'll have to agree, a class 4 is great and dandy for the PPL....

I have found alot of students who are just getting into flying and choose a school before fully understanding what their needs are.

IMO, read a lot of post on College programs, they go above and beyond a PPL.

Also you might look into a REC permit as that might be all you desire(and yes we know the drawbacks with that one)

So will you be willing to sacrifice price and pay more to get more done in a faster time line?

Will you be willing to save money and go slower?

Will you take the class IV to teach you to "fly" but the school who has a class 1 teaching ground school?

And I think that's a big factor too, does your school offer GS, will you be doing it on your own(self study??)

And people, you're the CUSTOMER, you don't need to stay at 1 place.... You can FAM flight all the schools, 40/hr at whatever schools, 200 to find out the best school/equipment..... Just do the extra leg work...

Also, you know you can do Ground school at 1 FTU and fly at another....

Are you happy with the choice you made? Would you have chosen a different school knowing what you know now?

LEAVE, cut your loses and go/try somewhere else, why go for a mediocre training and stick with it?

CYYC/CYBW · Post by **CYYC/CYBW** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:40 pm

IMO, read a lot of post on College programs, they go above and beyond a PPL

Some colleges (like Mt royal) have mostly class 4's. The training they provide is no better than that you would get training with any other class 4. I know more instructors with actual commercial experience that are training at private schools than you would find in a college programs.

kilocharliemike · Post by **kilocharliemike** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:05 pm

wherever you do go ...DO NOT give them a deposit...

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:42 pm

Hmmm. I have not stated that there is something terribly wrong with training with a class four. However, I do have cause for concern (in principle) when a school prefers to make/save money by saving on experience. In some cases it is achieved by exclusively hiring less experienced class fours.
Therefore, I ask, would you agree with the statement that a more experienced pilot and/or instructor might have additional attributes to offer a student? I mean after all, when it comes to most aspects of aviation, isn't "expertise" or experience what it is all about? No?

Now before you get out the flame guns, this is not a criticism of class four instructors ( I was once a class four). It is only a criticism of certain schools hiring policies.

aero220 · Post by **aero220** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:24 am

Most school don't hire class 4's just because they are cheaper. Alot of the choice to hire a class 4 is that they will probably stick around alot longer that a higher class instructor. If they hire an instructor with alot of experience and expertise, they will not be around long because other companies that are paying more will want their expertise.

just another pilot · Post by **just another pilot** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:55 am

Then why not pay more for experience to begin with? You have just validated that longevity is directly related to cost.

birdlegs · Post by **birdlegs** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:31 pm

No matter where you go to do your training, you will meet people who will tell you they had a great experience as well as those who had a crappy experience. Flight training is very personal and what works for one person, will not work for the other.

Definetely assess what you want to get out of your training. If you want to get through it as fast as you can, are you able to fly at least 3 times a week? If you only can put aside 1 day a week for training, then regardless of where you choose to train, it will take you a long time to finish. Do you understand that flight training is more than just getting into the airplane and going for a flight? Are you willing to put in the effort required ie. being ready for ground briefings. If you are not serious and dedicated to your training, how can you expect an instructor to take you seriously? If you select a school and begin training, make sure you let your instructor know right at the start what you really want to get out of your training. Many schools follow a syllabus, usually designed by the CFI, based on the TC syllabus. Ask for a copy, go home and compare it from one school to another. This is what the instructors are required to follow. Don't continue flying with an instructor that you don't work well with or who isn't meeting your needs, regardless of how many instructors a flying school will let you fly with. It's your money right? If you don't speak up, how can things get better?

Not everyone succeeds in their training for many, many reasons, internal as well as external factors, so it is difficult to point a finger and say that one school is good and another one is bad. Research your options, talk to as many people as you can, staff as well as students.

I did my PPL at the CFC years ago, they were busy then too,a great experience. Did the MRC program and thought it was great as well. I personally know many who agree as well as disagree. It's what you make of the experience and the effort you put in.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:55 pm

just another pilot wrote: I mean after all, when it comes to most aspects of aviation, isn't "expertise" or experience what it is all about? No?

I think it was hedley or cat that stated it, 150hrs or 1500hrs in the circuit will have the same "experience" as a class I, II, III, IV....

Personally, I learnt the most from my EXTRA ground briefs(I went to another instructor to get answers) and the DFTE.

Personally, any class if the only "experience" they have is with teaching will be able to teach you to "fly" take off, land, what not....

The more "experienced"(read : higher class) instructor will be able to explain everything faster so cheaper on the ground, because they've regurgatated(sp) the same stuff over and over again, and they'll have had students ask questions, and the same questions will have been put into his lessons for the next guy..

So with some schools charging 45 for a IV and 50+ for a I you take the 4 for the flights but get the briefs and gs and the "information" from the I's because whenever a 4,3,2 didn't know the answer to my questions they just went to the 1 and they handled it, and the clock was ticking while I waited for them to get the answer, and that's when I realised, why waste time with a middleman and just go to the source....

aero220 · Post by **aero220** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 11:10 pm

am doing a bit of further research into the schools located at Calgary(CYYC) and Springbank (CYBW).

If you did your private training at a school located at one of there airports please answer the following few questions;

1)what school did you choose?

2)What factor helped you to make your choice?

3)Are you happy with the choice you made? Would you have chosen a different school knowing what you know now?

4) Any advice that you may be able to give to people in the process of choosing a school?

I have found alot of students who are just getting into flying and choose a school before fully understanding what their needs are.

If you do not want to post the schools name, feel free to PM the information.

Thank you

Spokes · Post by **Spokes** » Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:04 am

cyyz wrote:
I think it was hedley or cat that stated it, 150hrs or 1500hrs in the circuit will have the same "experience" as a class I, II, III, IV....

This is of course nonsense. As an Instructor, I spend maybe 10% of my time in the circuit. So....with 150Hrs in the circuit I am a 1500Hr Pilot. With 1500 Hrs in the circuit I am a 15000Hr Pilot. Quite a difference I would say.

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:10 am

cyyz wrote:
just another pilot wrote: I mean after all, when it comes to most aspects of aviation, isn't "expertise" or experience what it is all about? No?
I think it was hedley or cat that stated it, 150hrs or 1500hrs in the circuit will have the same "experience" as a class I, II, III, IV....

Personally, I learnt the most from my EXTRA ground briefs(I went to another instructor to get answers) and the DFTE.

Personally, any class if the only "experience" they have is with teaching will be able to teach you to "fly" take off, land, what not....

The more "experienced"(read : higher class) instructor will be able to explain everything faster so cheaper on the ground, because they've regurgatated(sp) the same stuff over and over again, and they'll have had students ask questions, and the same questions will have been put into his lessons for the next guy..

So with some schools charging 45 for a IV and 50+ for a I you take the 4 for the flights but get the briefs and gs and the "information" from the I's because whenever a 4,3,2 didn't know the answer to my questions they just went to the 1 and they handled it, and the clock was ticking while I waited for them to get the answer, and that's when I realised, why waste time with a middleman and just go to the source....

I was an Instructor for (almost) 20 years... Class One for 17 years, Pilot Examiner 15 years, CFI for at least 10 of those years, and now more than one year at TC.

I would suggest you get some instructional experience.

You have really no idea what you are talking about.

-Guy

(sorry all, this was the last straw for me, and I have a really long fuse).

pingcat · Post by **pingcat** » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:37 am

TC Guy:

hear! hear! and Bravo!

Thanks for the comment