Russia pitches military goods to Canada

[teacher]

I don't see it happening but still intersting to see them try....

Russia woos our military with deals on guns, planes
Sales pitch inspired by PM's plan to spend billions on Forces

Mike Blanchfield, The Ottawa Citizen
Published: Thursday, June 01, 2006

A Russian trade delegation has been quietly making the rounds this week in Ottawa and they're not here to sell grain or vodka.

Instead, the delegation is offering "rather huge planes and helicopters and even guns," Russia's ambassador to Canada, Georgiy Mamedov, said yesterday.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government is poised to spend billions on new military hardware after a presentation to cabinet this week by Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor. Topping Mr. O'Connor's wish list are long-range cargo planes and heavy-lift helicopters, both for the Afghanistan mission, while the planes would also enable the delivery of massive amounts of troops, their heavy equipment and humanitarian relief to world hotspots on short notice.

The Russians are trying to interest Canada in their Ilyushin Il-76 MD-90 four-engine long-range cargo plane and their Mi-17V heavy lift transport helicopter, and they're offering the incentive of leasing instead of buying and delivering directly to Afghanistan where they're needed most.

The Russians also say they can beat the delivery time of the nearest competitors by almost half by getting them into the hands of the Canadian Forces by late next year.

The government has committed to keeping at least 2,000 troops in Afghanistan until 2009 and has pledged to get them more aircraft.

The Harper government appears to favour the American built C-17 Boeing Globemaster long-range cargo plane, and heavy Chinook transport helicopters.

But the Russians are already applying direct political pressure on Mr. Harper to eschew buying from

NATO countries. Visiting Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov made a direct pitch to Mr. Harper earlier this year in Ottawa and President Vladimir Putin will keep the pressure on in their first meeting next month in St. Petersburg at the G8 summit.

"He will have bilateral discussions with President Putin," said Mr. Mamedov. "One of the major topics will of course be security ... be it the war on terrorism, or providing for critical security for our infrastructure in energy co-operation. It certainly means, also, arms sales."

Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay will face similar lobbying when he visits Moscow later this month.

Mr. Mamedov hosted a nearly two-hour presentation by five Russian arms sellers for an exclusive industry audience at the Russian Embassy in Ottawa yesterday, offering a full screening of the presentation the officials are showing to Canadian officials this week.

The team acknowledged trying to persuade Canada to buy Russian would not be easy, but the delegation went to the trouble of bringing a draft treaty on military-industrial co-operation just in case.

"We don't have any illusions here," said Alexander Skobeltsyn, the leader of the trade mission and director of Russia's federal agency on military co-operation.

"Wise people say that rather than depend on one person, you should be friends with two."

Mr. Mamedov reminded his audience that Canada already leases long-range Russian-built cargo planes to deliver humanitarian aid and heavy equipment, while the civilian equivalent of the Russian helicopter is now used on Alberta oil rigs.

"Your cannons are firing Russian ammunition in Afghanistan and your special forces are using small arms procured in Russia," Mr. Mamedov said, "but these are just one-time deals and we're not interested in one-night stands."

The team was effusive about the ability of its Ilyushin plane and Mi-17 helicopter to withstand the dusty, mountainous conditions in Afghanistan.

Their detailed Power Point presentations also dumped on the competition, notably the C-130J Hercules and the A-400 Airbus, and touted the Ilyushin's ability to deliver troops and equipment in almost half the time with fewer crew.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2006

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/il76/

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/helicopter/mi17.asp

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/new ... aee9ce498e

[grimey]

"rather huge planes and helicopters and even guns,"

I'm assuming they're talking about a battle rifle, any idea what, exactly?

[EI-EIO]

Well, they would know very well how Russian military equipment performs in the 'Stan. However I would suggest picking up a few Mi-24s too for that tasking

[Walker]

I would assume the most popular rifle in the world; the Kalashnikov….. But I find it hard to imagine would replace the C7 with an AK… Rather than spend money on new rifles, perhaps they could spend the money on more ammunition so members of the armed forces wouldn’t have to pay for their own bullets if they want to fire more than 40 rounds per year…

They MAY be talking about field guns however, but im too lazy to actually read the PDF

[2R]

Nice to know that the Russians are still peddling arms around the developing world
Has anyone tried that Kalashnikov Vodka ? where can you get it ?

[Clodhopper]

That'd be interesting: Canadian Heavy and Medium-Lift fleet of Il-76's and An-72/74's.

Awesome. But that Mil-17 isn't the best heavy lift helicopter they have available. The -26 (I think) is much better.

[Expat]

I think that buying some equipment from Russia would be a good move. It costs much less to build planes in Russia than in Europe or America. So that would be cost effective.
Here there is a lot of russian equipment, and it almost always outperforms western gear. They have a tradition of overbuilding everything, so that it can take the abuse of war.
I just wish we bought some fighters!

[mellow_pilot]

I would agree with the posts so far but aren't we forgetting that the Afgans are quite used to shooting down Russian helos?

[2R]

QUID PRO QUO

Will they allow Canadian Aircraft similar privilages ??

Those russian helio's were shot down with american supplied equipment and help the americans should be grateful that the russkies do not offer their insurgent experts.

[Westrules]

Actually the MI-8/17 is probably the best choice for a medium lift chopper. There has been more than 10,000 of them built and they can be converted to a gunship very simular to the Mi-24 hind. The Mi-26 is far to large to operate effectively. The Mi-26 can move a payload simular to a C-130 but is very expensive to operate with a crew of 5. There has only been approx. 300 of them built.

[TheCheez]

This is really interesting. I dont think the government will go for it, but if we do a little armchair QB here:

The IL-76 has a range/payload/volume in between the herc/C-17 but the landing distance isn't even close to what the herc can achieve. Not only that but the few pages I found with info on it mentioned a 6-7 person crew while the herc requires 3, 4 with load master. Not sure what the C-17 needs. Also, is Russian gear compatiple with American refuelers? The Mi-17 is quite the helo, but the CDS seems set on heavy lift, not medium. Hinds would be nice though, too bad they're not pitching that!

The logistics of putting these on lease might not work out either. All expertise and parts for this kit is based across the pond.

Also politically I think the yanks would shit.

[grimey]

I would assume the most popular rifle in the world; the Kalashnikov…..

I was guessing either the AEK971(a Kalashnikov derivative) or AN-94. I doubt they'd accept either unless it came in a 5.56 NATO variant, so that they could maintain consistency with NATO forces as far as ammunition went, but it'd still be interesting to know what was offered. As you mentioned, though, the could be talking about artillery.

[cyyz]

So you want to save 10 million in buying an antanov or an Ily, but then your left with a 1000 million repair bill, no AMEs with certification, rofl, so you'll be allowing Rusky immigrants, I'm not one to complain, but if we do that, then the next thing they want to do is let in rusky PILOTS!!!

So how about you stfu about buying foreign.... We all keep our jobs... Oh, and I guess the 3k people working at bombardier in Que alone don't mean sh8t to you either...

[Expat]

So you want to save 10 million in buying an antanov or an Ily, but then your left with a 1000 million repair bill, no AMEs with certification, rofl, so you'll be allowing Rusky immigrants, I'm not one to complain, but if we do that, then the next thing they want to do is let in rusky PILOTS!!!

So how about you stfu about buying foreign.... We all keep our jobs... Oh, and I guess the 3k people working at bombardier in Que alone don't mean sh8t to you either...

Half of my family in Quebec and Ontario lost their jobs as a result of the soft wood lumber dispute. Frankly, it is about time that we made a strong statement. We are not yet the 51st state. The US have been f**g us for so long, We should start to make our own alliances, instead of relying the US for everything.
We in Canada, like other NATO allies can only buy derated equipment from the US. Britain got all upset because their Helicopters were so derated, and Poland got F-16 that were derated by as much as 20%. Any russian fighter can kick the s**t out of them now.
The US is going down and Asia will kick ass soon!

[Hotel Tango]

If we're trying to make ourselves "welcomed" by the Afghan people, how do you think they'll feel when we start flying around in Russian airplanes? Might bring back some less than happy memories...

But then again, we can't rely on the Americans for everything. BTW, how are the Bomarc missiles doing up there in the arctic?

[cyyz]

But logistically wouldn't it be easier(read "cheaper") to stick with US products, or we could buy our local over priced stuff... But if we didn't do that, isn't the US stuff from the maintenance and AME perspective a better deal?

Secondly, screw buying guns, and heavy weapons, what happened to peace and "globalization" and all that crap.

Might is right, but when you have a military that smaller and cheaper then the swiss(googles),

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... 4rank.html

Lol, 1.1 vs there 1.0, anyways, latvia spends more on military, 127 other countries spend more(GDP) on military, why bother, why we gonna buy a rock when everyone else bought the sling shot to go with it.

Aren't we that proud little country that doesn't like wars, support wars, want to get involved in wars, drop the military give the extra cash to the user and woohooo. =)

[gr8gazu]

Has anyone tried that Kalashnikov Vodka ? where can you get it ?

Yes. It is far from best though. I have not looked for it in Canada, but I have seen it in the NY area. There is a big Russian community and good shops around Brighton Beach.

[2R]

Oh well i guess we will stick to the Stolly

[Lurch]

Actually the MI-8/17 is probably the best choice for a medium lift chopper. There has been more than 10,000 of them built and they can be converted to a gunship very simular to the Mi-24 hind. The Mi-26 is far to large to operate effectively. The Mi-26 can move a payload simular to a C-130 but is very expensive to operate with a crew of 5. There has only been approx. 300 of them built.

Problem with Russian helicopters is they have already been field tested in Afganistan during the war and they failed. Thier exhaust pipe gave a nice large signiture for the SAMs, and they couldn't handle the high altitude, couldn't reach alot of the mountain regions, and need a runway to get off of the ground.

[Expat]

Actually the MI-8/17 is probably the best choice for a medium lift chopper. There has been more than 10,000 of them built and they can be converted to a gunship very simular to the Mi-24 hind. The Mi-26 is far to large to operate effectively. The Mi-26 can move a payload simular to a C-130 but is very expensive to operate with a crew of 5. There has only been approx. 300 of them built.

Problem with Russian helicopters is they have already been field tested in Afganistan during the war and they failed. Thier exhaust pipe gave a nice large signiture for the SAMs, and they couldn't handle the high altitude, couldn't reach alot of the mountain regions, and need a runway to get off of the ground.

Not true!!!
They crashed a few because they attempted to fly over mountains with a large load. They just exceeded the capacities of the craft. You see russian pilots do not fly by the book, especially in times of war. I have never seen a ruuian pilot carrying maps, or manuals. Only vodka bottles.
As for the signature of the exaust, it is probably the same as for any turbine. Urban Legend!
They definitely do not need a runway for the MI-8!

[2R]

WE should get some of those 300 kmp torpedo's to protect the Artic
and more stolly.They probably would not sell them to us as then they would have to ask if they could drive thier subs in our waters. Such a powerful torpedo may force some of the others who traverse canadian waters to ask permission .

[mellow_pilot]

WE should get some of those 300 kmp torpedo's to protect the Artic
and more stolly.They probably would not sell them to us as then they would have to ask if they could drive thier subs in our waters. Such a powerful torpedo may force some of the others who traverse canadian waters to ask permission .

Awesome plan. Don't sie Germans have a similar tor-pee-do in testing? I think it goes along with their hydrogen fuel cell subs.

[goates]

Not true!!!
They crashed a few because they attempted to fly over mountains with a large load. They just exceeded the capacities of the craft. You see russian pilots do not fly by the book, especially in times of war. I have never seen a ruuian pilot carrying maps, or manuals. Only vodka bottles.
As for the signature of the exaust, it is probably the same as for any turbine. Urban Legend!
They definitely do not need a runway for the MI-8!

You sure about the exhaust? The exhaust signature is probably quite similar for all turbine engines, but not all have huge exhaust opening on the side. I was watching a documentary about the Russian adventures in Afghanistan, and there were a couple of videos showing Russian helos getting hit by shoulder launched missiles. All of them hit right on the side where the big exhaust opeing is, and usually took the front of the helo right off. Here are a couple of examples.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0983596/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0702269/M/

Having said that, many of the newer Russian designs seem to have redesigned exhausts, probably because of the above experiences.

[Expat]

I saw these videos and more. A new russian movie came out this year. It is called 9th Company. Although I have not seen it, it is a hit!
It is about young men who enlist and go fight in Afghanistan. There is good footage, some of it real. A lot of helicopters were shot down at close range by mudjahedines using Stingers. They were hiding in the famous caves in the east, and there was not way for the russians to win in that situation.
The funny thing now is that the table has turned...

[mellow_pilot]

A lot of helicopters were shot down at close range by mudjahedines using Stingers.

I remember seeing somewhere that they also used massed AK fire to bring down choppers and low-level jets. Something about putting enough lead in the air and something's bound to damage a compressor blade to the point of failure. Seemed a bit odd to me, but the old guy in the turban being interviewed about it said they killed alot of Russians that way... He also mentioned stolen Russian PRGs.