MOH Minimums

The Rudder · Post by **The Rudder** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:16 pm

Hey folks! I heard from around the biz that the MOH medevac operators are screaming about the lack of qualified pilots and the MOH might finally be listening! Perhaps there was a meeting recently (or there will be soon). Anyone heard or care to speculate what will result? Will the minimums actually DECREASE? I know we're hurting for pilots BIG TIME!

maxell · Post by **maxell** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:24 pm

Hey...May i ask which company you work for?

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:36 pm

I got lots o Ontario time, Beech time, Medevac time, command time, night time... all kinds of time.

Now... how much are you paying?

split s · Post by **split s** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:41 pm

[quote="The Rudder"] medevac operators are screaming about the lack of qualified pilots [/quote]

Lack of "MOH requirment" qualified pilots I say. I bet there are strapped operatores, Jazz cleaned house there.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:56 pm

I haven't got as much time as Just Curious...but I can sell ya some.

Mightymouse · Post by **Mightymouse** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:47 pm

They cant find any pilots because they dont pay enough for people to stick around. People will take a hit in pay initially like at Jazz or mainline because they are looking at the big picture down the road - either with Jazz/AC, or for example, flying heavy iron say in the Middle East with the experience they would have gotten. I have friends there now who are making 200K taxfree and had they stayed with who they were flying for they would still be answering their pager at 3:00 a.m. and driving their beat up cars to answer the dreaded 1hr callout. These MOH operators had it real good during the lean years and are now scratching their heads wondering why everyone is leaving. I know some of them even think that pay has nothing to do with why their pilots left because they left for Jazz/AC and will be making less. Well let me enlighten you: Think "BIG PICTURE" and if you want to keep them you gotta pay to play. Yes there are companies like Bravo that pay reasonably well, but still not enough to discourage someone from leaving. Once again the theme here people:- "BIG PICTURE"
I hope MOH doesn't lower the mins. This will force these operators, they know who they are, to share some of that huge pile of cash they have been making on the backs of their pilots. The problem here is not a lack of qualified pilots, but the lack of incentive to keep them.
Once AC turns it up a notch things should get real interesting. Us pilots are due for some fair treatment and lets hope we get it.
P.S. If it seems like I sound bitter, I assure you that's not the case at all. One can not deny that pilots have been exploited and I have just had enough of the pendulum swinging the other way.
Have a great day everyone!

CAL · Post by **CAL** » Mon May 29, 2006 7:20 pm

well said.....you obviously have first hand experience...good post

jackfm · Post by **jackfm** » Mon May 29, 2006 8:28 pm

Yeah, well said mightmouse! Good post.

It's funny though..with 2000TT and 500mpic, none of them have called me yet.

what do I put here??? · Tue May 30, 2006 2:46 am

It's funny though..with 2000TT and 500mpic, none of them have called me yet.

In the same boat as you jack 2500TT 600Multi and 450MPIC nobody banging down my door yet.

Kepping my fingers crosed for now.

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Tue May 30, 2006 7:55 am

There are those of us out there with the sort of times they would like, like 6000 + hours on turbine beeches and 3000 of medevac plus 19000 hours of miscellaneous time.

We are content to fly the category and class of aircraft used in the air ambulance business.

Until someone matchs the time off, cash, and work conditions we have, we're staying put.

110 K, a YRL base, and 3 months off a year plus strict following of the CARS with respect to on call and rest, and we'd consider going back. Otherwise, we'll just continue to fish for Carr on our time off instead of Walleye.

It's their call.

InTheGame · Post by **InTheGame** » Wed May 31, 2006 10:25 pm

You guys with 2500 + TT and 500 + multi, where are you applying and where are you at now? that seems like pretty decent time!! you would think someone is out there ? very weird

jackfm · Post by **jackfm** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:25 am

umm....Voyageur, Thunder, Flightexec, Calm Air, NCA, Skylink, Georgian, CMA, Pasco, Helijet, ....BarXH, Transwest, ...plus a bunch more...but it is too earily to remember all the companies I'm still waiting to hear back from..

The Rudder · Post by **The Rudder** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:44 pm

Ok...the MOH minimums are high, a little too high for some. But how far will the pendulum have to swing in our favour for us to be content to stay with these operators? Few people will ever hang their hat with a medevac company. Why? Pager. Weird hours. Remote locations. Those are necessities of the job that can't change. But how much will they have to pay us to stay rather than go to AC or WJ when they call? My answer would be "never enough". I'm just looking for answers to my original question on behalf of all the ramp dudes, right-seaters, and flight instructors who have toiled too long. I believe the rightful owners of these jobs belong to them, looking to build meaningful time and actually start making a living in this industry, as those currently employed move on.
Going from 200 to 2000 hours and an ATPL may be the hardest accomplishment in this industry. I just hope the bridge will be a little shorter for future pilots. My question is: Will it?
I hope you guys looking get called soon, but don't wait for THEM to knock.

Tuned & Identified · Post by **Tuned & Identified** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 6:30 pm

I had more than my share of the medevac business in Ontario and I feel no pity for medevac operators. Requests for a liveable wage and a humane schedule were met with comments like "you're lucky to have a job right now!" and "I could have 10 guys to replace you tomorrow." I've moved on to better things but I'm glad to see that some of the pressure will be taken off of the pilots and finally shared by their employers.

I had several friends in the business tell me that they like to stay in northern Ontario and continue flying medevacs in light turbines for the rest of their career. Mostly guys who grew up in the area and really enjoyed the hands on aspect and unpredictability of the flying. They were not, however, interested in being treated like dirt any longer than absolutely necessary.

If the operators claim they can't afford to pay any better than they should quote higher rates to the MOH. If the MOH wants to have qualified pilots available then they should stop awarding flights to the lowest bidder. I really can't predict if they will lower the captain requirements or if that will help but it's probably not a good idea. It's a very tough job and the patients being transfered deserve an experienced crew.

Hot Fuel · Post by **Hot Fuel** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:45 am

Somebody suggested that operators have been making piles of cash off the backs of under paid pilots...I'd hazzard a guess that there are no operators making piles of cash off the MOH "contracts". You tender your rates and if you meet the standards you get placed on the call list...ie no guarantee of work or revenue stream.

Its the old low bid system....they want starship crews to operate their trips but want to pay air cadet instructor rates. Pricing in the MOH world is cut-throat, not alot different than the courier end of things. A nickel too high and you can sit all day without so much as a phone call.

Who in there right mind would fly on the space shuttle knowing its construction went to the low bidder.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:30 am

Hot Fuel wrote: Who in there right mind would fly on the space shuttle knowing its construction went to the low bidder.

ROFL, I would(assuming it was good ol commie made).. Seeing as construction went to the "highest" most "crooked" bidder in their system...

dangerous · Post by **dangerous** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:55 pm

OK so you need 500 multi PIC to be a medevac captain, right? Do any companies hire guys with little or no multi time and let them fly as PIC on the non-medevac legs in order to build up their MPIC? You would think this would work in favor of the company too because as soon as a medevac captain leaves for Jazz, they have someone that's qualified to sit left seat.

Tuned & Identified · Post by **Tuned & Identified** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:52 pm

Ya, it's pretty common to hire guys with under the 500 Multi-pic and PPC them so they can log the empty legs. When things are moving fast, however, there really is no time for that to happen. They need a captain today. That's where the problems start. Companies start hiring pilots straight out of instructing or off a mix-master who have the 500 hrs but little to no IFR, turbine or two-crew experience. They still need to get 100 hrs on type in the right seat or with a training captain but it happens pretty fast. I flew with a guy who was just released as captain who had never actually flown a real IFR approach in weather! Ouch. Throw in some icing, a 3500' slippery runway, a black hole approach in the middle of the night a there are bound to be problems. Luckily this guy was flying with some really experienced F.O.s who were still shy of the multi-pic time.

Cloud 9 · Post by **Cloud 9** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:00 pm

Tuned & Identified wrote:I had more than my share of the medevac business in Ontario and I feel no pity for medevac operators. Requests for a liveable wage and a humane schedule were met with comments like "you're lucky to have a job right now!" and "I could have 10 guys to replace you tomorrow." I've moved on to better things but I'm glad to see that some of the pressure will be taken off of the pilots and finally shared by their employers.

I had several friends in the business tell me that they like to stay in northern Ontario and continue flying medevacs in light turbines for the rest of their career. Mostly guys who grew up in the area and really enjoyed the hands on aspect and unpredictability of the flying. They were not, however, interested in being treated like dirt any longer than absolutely necessary.

If the operators claim they can't afford to pay any better than they should quote higher rates to the MOH. If the MOH wants to have qualified pilots available then they should stop awarding flights to the lowest bidder. I really can't predict if they will lower the captain requirements or if that will help but it's probably not a good idea. It's a very tough job and the patients being transfered deserve an experienced crew.

We're facing a very similar situation in Alberta. At least two of the Northern Alberta medevac operators have been regularly grounding aircraft for the last few months due to a serious lack of Alberta Health qualified Captains. I think lowering the bar (in terms of requirements) is the worst thing that could happen. I totally agree with Tuned & Identified; the folks in the back deserve a well qualified, experienced crew up front to take them safely to their destination (the folks in the back to whom I'm referring could be your spouse, kid, parent, friend, etc). Not meaning to offend here, but 2500 hours doesn't make a pilot . Yeager...

With regards to the pay issue, I'm wondering whether the provincial governments could step in and offer 'pilot retention' pay (directly to the pilots) over and above the operators salary. In Alberta at least, the province is awash in money and this could be a way to help stem the flow. I know in my case, leaving a Medevac job would be a lot more difficult if the pay cut when transitioning to the majors was more substantial. At the moment, it's a no-brainer (sure, I'm making more now than year 2 at WestJet but that's a cut I can live with short-medium term).

Of course, it's possible that the operators would just cut their base pay if the provincial governments were to step in with direct-to-pilot subsidies however I honestly don't think this would happen. They (the operators) are already hurting enough as it is. Furthermore, having the governments up their contract rates for operators to help offset higher labour costs wouldn't necessarily get into the pockets of those who need it most (e.g., the pilots!)

Cheers

The Rudder · Post by **The Rudder** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:15 am

Luckily this guy was flying with some really experienced F.O.s who were still shy of the multi-pic time.

The points for not lowering the minimums are well made, but T&I brings up an interesting issue. Isn't the 500 mpic requirement a little too arbitrary and not necessarily represent a captain's qualifications or experience? Couldn't "time on type" or "time with medevac operator" be good benchmark qualifications in lieu of the 500 mpic? This would allow qualified right-seaters to move up a little quicker and allow operators a way to groom their own pilots. Isn't there a solution that helps both pilots and operators?

Tuned & Identified · Post by **Tuned & Identified** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:35 am

That's exactly right, Rudder. There is no sliding scale that takes into account the quality of the time logged. A pilot with 500 multi-PIC hours flying circuits instructing day-VFR in a Seminole is considered to be more qualified to be captain in a King Air or MU2 than the F.O. who's logged 1000 hours on type but only 400 multi-PIC. What ends up happening is the company assigns an experienced F.O. to "babysit" that captain until he\she gains some confidence and experience. Makes for some pretty wierd CRM.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:24 am

Retaining medevac captains (in alberta at least) is very simple. Pay them well. When i was flying medevacs the company had 8 captains for two airplanes. Of those 8, 6 will be there until they retire. How do they retain these people? Good schedule, good pay. And has doing this hurt the owner? Is he loosing money? No. Paying his crews well and retaining high time pilots has made the owner a millionaire.

Granted he had to be smart about it. You guys talk about a cut-throat industry. Certainly if you lower your bid to compete with a company that isn't paying their pilots enough for them to stay you will have the same problems. The trick lies with only bidding when you can make money on it. The point of a flying company is not to fly, it is to make money.

Don't go to MOH and say "we need to lower the minimums so we can continue paying low wages." You say "we need more money to meet your very well thought out and clever pilot minimums."

MOH Minimums

MOH Minimums

Re: MOH Minimums

Operators still dont get it!

TT