Cock Eyed Nose Oleo? - EVERYTHING IS DUCKY!

niss · Post by **niss** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:52 pm

I posted this here aswell as the Maintenance Forum because I thought I might get more feedback here.

Recently it was pointed out that my 1966 Piper Cherokee soon to be might have a little problem. It seems that the oleo might be bent a few degrees off the nose. Its not really like there is a bend or anything visible it just comes out of the bottem of the cowling on an angle, and a very small one at that. I pose this questions to all you AMEs and Aviators. What does it take to bend one, is it such a big deal, how much does it cost to repair one, what are the chances of it failing?

If he is lurking around Jim might be able to pose a few details I missed.

Cheers,

Niss

Bullet Remington · Post by **Bullet Remington** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:21 pm

This machine has been either wheelbarrowed, or had one heck of a hard landing.

Baring that, the 4130 tubing maybe corroded inside, or a wld is going.

Personally, I would want to pull the engine cowlings off and have a look at the tubing holding the gear in place, and have a good long look at the fire wall. While you are at it. check the engine mounts and bolts.

If that gear is cocl eyed, there's some thing wrong!!

Check it over , very very well before you spend money!!

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:20 pm

As usual Bullet has hit the nail on the head on this one.. Check it out before you fly it again cause it might cause some serious problems...

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:45 pm

Ahhhhhh. Heat her up with a torch and bend 'er back into place and you'll be good to go.

cedar tree · Post by **cedar tree** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:15 am

Bullet Remington wrote:This machine has been either wheelbarrowed, or had one heck of a hard landing.

Baring that, the 4130 tubing maybe corroded inside, or a wld is going.

Personally, I would want to pull the engine cowlings off and have a look at the tubing holding the gear in place, and have a good long look at the fire wall. While you are at it. check the engine mounts and bolts.

If that gear is cocl eyed, there's some thing wrong!!

Check it over , very very well before you spend money!!

Logical indeed Bullet, you should take a look at my truck!

niss · Post by **niss** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:30 am

I know it doesnt mean mutch but it did just come out of annual. I went over with a couple of mechanics and asked about that and they said all the hoses look fine, they said that the gear was solid, and everything is kosher.

boeingboy · Post by **boeingboy** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:45 am

I don't know much about cherokees, but is it possible that this is normal? It's not uncommon for some aircraft to have a slightly forward rake to the nose gear. You should go out to the field and compare it to other cherokees - or even have a look in the IPC - it may have a detailed enough pic.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:21 pm

We live in Canada, we are tolerent of differences.. =P

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:35 am

I say try landing on the main wheels from now on

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:32 am

It must have been flown by a Sault College student before you bought it! HAHAA!!!

-istp

niss · Post by **niss** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:00 pm

actually the funny thing is it was from the sault apparantly it had quite a repor with other pilots as it cut them off in the circuits as I am told by a former sault student.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:23 pm

I just had a look at one parked two down from my airplane and it sure looks to me like it is tilted a little to the side. Maybe they are all like that by design.

Inverted2 · Post by **Inverted2** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:23 am

Must have been flown by some Sault College students. Theres your problem.

niss · Post by **niss** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:10 pm

BUMP

Any AMEs have anything to say about it? It just came out of annual and I asked everyone who worked on it if they noticed anything out of the ordinary and they said no.

Bullet Remington · Post by **Bullet Remington** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:45 pm

niss wrote:BUMP

Any AMEs have anything to say about it? It just came out of annual and I asked everyone who worked on it if they noticed anything out of the ordinary and they said no.

Ahh, yeah! I am an engineer. Been one for about thirty years! Does that count??

I had a boo at three PA28-140s and they don't appear 'cocked" to me. Here's an easy way to check, as well as doing the things I listed above.

Get a piece if 1/8" or 1/4" angle iron (steel0 about 18 to 24 inches long. pull off the cowlings and lay one edge up against the tubing. (You may want to pull the clamps off) and check for gaps. If you can see them or slide a feeler gauge between the angle and the tubing, the tubing is bent!

In the event you can do this, start walking away OR, dicker with the current owner to get a new (remanufactured) mount installed at their expense.

By the way, Twotter is also a highly experienced and licensed engineer. But he don't count mcuh any more! Not since he's gone back to the dark side!!

Oh, as for the thing just comming out of annual... that matters squat! I had the opportunity to do a pre-buy on a 150 for a flight school a few years back. First thing I noticed was the nose gear. Told the CFI/Owner and he disagreed. AND, he didn't want me to pull the cowlings. He flew it back to his AMO, and you guessed it! Loss revenue for 3 weeks while the machine waited for a new engine mount! (on the 150's the tubing holding the Nose gear in place in part (welded into) the engine mount!

The other ramification of bent tubing in this area is thrust line. When the tubing is bent, it will move the prop thrust angle of the prescribed anlge. if it bad enough, it'll be noted by the contol inputs required to maintain straight and level flight.

Good luck whatever you decide to do, and do keep us uptodate.

Cheers

niss · Post by **niss** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:56 pm

Thanks for all the great advice guys.

I had my AME have another look at it today and he said it was fine.....well within tolerances......

.....I dont mind it so much....my instructor is worried though. He might be a tough sell.

Bullet Remington · Post by **Bullet Remington** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:09 pm

niss wrote:Thanks for all the great advice guys.

I had my AME have another look at it today and he said it was fine.....well within tolerances...... .....I dont mind it so much....my instructor is worried though. He might be a tough sell.

Niss:

Geez, that's most unusual. I'm not dising your AME here, but I am most curious. Just what is he using for a reference?? That is, where is he finding the limits for allowable bends/distortion for this tubing?? It sure as heck ain't in the manufacturer's maintenance manual, and I'm challenging you and him to find me an authority, including the AC42.13 that's clearly stats a primary structural tubing element has an allowable bend/distortion limit.

I am kinda hoping you can prove that I'm wrong on this, but I sure as heck don't think so!

As I stated, good luck to ya, cuz if it ain't repaired now, you'll sure as heck be repairing it later! Just hope you don't have to repalce considerable more parts such as a prop, and an engine at the same tim!!

BR

niss · Post by **niss** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 5:48 am

I think he said that the mounts were okey, its just that the oleo isnt straight down....

Its not that much on an angle either IMO but im not a mechanic, and realistically not a pilot either.

I have talked to a few cherokee owners that have flown with their oleos this way. Obviously there are a few out there who are willing to compromise their safety to save a buck, but I dont think that many of the people I talked to are like that.

Also if one day the gear does fail and results in a prop strike or takes out the engine, does insurance not cover this?

Mitch Cronin · Post by **Mitch Cronin** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 6:13 am

Niss...If there's bent structure, such that you can see it easily, there's an extremely high probablity that it's beyond any allowable limits.... in which case it's "unserviceable".... In which case the CofA would be invalid... in which case insurance would be null and void.

If you've got an AME telling you it's "OK"... you'd best get him to show you in writing why/how it's OK. ....Where is the tolerance written?... Has anyone snagged it in writing? If so what reference is used to call it serviceable? (and if not, why not?!)

If it's not snagged.... It should be... Now that you've acknowledged it here.... It's not like you'll ever be able to claim it "just happened".

...and none of that addresses the potential safety concerns that are quite legitimate if there is indeed some bent structure!

If you're thinking of buying this bird and neither the current owner, nor the AME who just did the "annual" has bothered to write this up, what else have they not bothered to maintain properly?

If it ain't snagged, and answered as considered serviceable as per xxx ?xxx, I'd walk away from the airplane! (unless the price is all adjusted accordingly to allow for a fix?)

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:28 am

Nose gear can lead terribly hard lives.

Excessive approach speed can lead to wheel-barrowing and porpoising. This is not just in small aircraft - apparently some ham-fisted pilots have managed to do this in the T-33.

On C182, it is common to shear the rivets from the nose gear to the firewall, due to pilots not trimming out on final, then being surprised by the extra back pressure required in the flare, compared to the lighter Cessnas.

About 10 years ago, I met a guy down south who once supposedly ground-looped a Cherokee. I was skeptical, I'd never heard of a nosewheel aircraft being groundlooped, but his associates assured me that it indeed had happened. To this day, I am unsure as to how one would actually perform that.

Jungle Jim · Post by **Jungle Jim** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:52 am

Niss,

I think that there have been enough negative/truthful comments now for you to decide. If I were in your shoes, I would pass on this plane. There will be too many expenses coming down the road for you if you commit to this. A better couse would be to take your $16,000.00 and find another guy with $16,000.00 to give you a total of $32,000.00 to spend on a real nice C150. It would most likely have recent radios, a very low time engineand lower total airframe time. The operating expenses will be lower and you will be able to fly the pants off it and sell it at a higher relative resale value down the road.

Just my $0.02 Cdn

Jim

Bullet Remington · Post by **Bullet Remington** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:46 am

Hedley wrote:Nose gear can lead terribly hard lives.

Excessive approach speed can lead to wheel-barrowing and porpoising. This is not just in small aircraft - apparently some ham-fisted pilots have managed to do this in the T-33.

On C182, it is common to shear the rivets from the nose gear to the firewall, due to pilots not trimming out on final, then being surprised by the extra back pressure required in the flare, compared to the lighter Cessnas.

About 10 years ago, I met a guy down south who once supposedly ground-looped a Cherokee. I was skeptical, I'd never heard of a nosewheel aircraft being groundlooped, but his associates assured me that it indeed had happened. To this day, I am unsure as to how one would actually perform that.

Hedley:

Yep, actually got to witness the T-Bird doing that waltz in Cold lake!! Wasn't pretty and weren't much fun to repair!

I haven't seen the rivets shear of the fire wall on the 182, but I have seen one in the Maritimes that stalled on, on landing. Appearently, he ran out of elevator authority on landing! Bent the crap outa the firewall, the lower (belly) skins, the tunnel (inside the cockpit) and sheared off the aft left engine mount - the little fitting the lord mount sits in!

NDT'd the gear and that was fine!! Took a couple of weeks to repair that one!!

6 months later, the other partner did the same thing!!!

I had a good year!!

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:18 am

Hedley, the only way I could think of to ground-loop a nosewheel aircraft is to take off with it loaded to the max (or slightly over) and then once in the air throw all the weight as far back as it can go, thus moving the c of g behind the mains. Obviously this would severely screw the handling of the aircraft, make it unsafe as hell, and I'm unsure if it would even keep flying. Nonetheless, it would then be possible to ground-loop on landing (though even if you didn't ground loop it you'd cause some serious damage methinks).

Again, I'm not sure if this is possible, and it certainly isn't legal or safe, but hypothetically I suppose it could happen.

niss · Post by **niss** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:53 pm

Well I taxid UBC today and every thing is ducky! We moved the aircraft to level ground and there was no problem with the nose gear...nice and straight. It did however pull to the right when taxiing, we attributed this to the fact that there is only 10lbs of air in the right tire when there is supposed to be 24. so once i top that off there should be no problem. FUCKIN EH!

niss · Post by **niss** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:58 pm

Does anyone know if there are fuel tank locks for a 140?