Help! Sault vs. Moncton

Spruce Moose · Post by **Spruce Moose** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:21 pm

Hey guys, I have been browsing the forum for about a month now, this place is great!

I've wanted to be a pilot as far back as I can remember, it was always my dream to someday fly the planes with the 'big maple leaf on the tail' and I can't think of anything that would change that. So now, i'm at the point where i'm trying to figure out how I go about getting into aviation and where to get my training. I'm 17 and just finishing up grade 11, I get 70's and 80's but i'm trying to bring that up more. A friend of the family who flies for AC thinks I should go to Seneca, I researched it and it turns out I won't have the right sciences to get in (I won't come out of grade 12 with 2nd year physics and chem) so he said Sault is the next best thing and I know I have the right courses to be eligible. The thing is, Sault is a long distance from where I live, and from what i've heard on here, Moncton seems to have a really good reputation and it's a hell of a lot closer to where a lot of my family lives in Halifax. So it comes down to these two schools.

Sault: has a 3 year college degree. eligible for government funding. great training.

Moncton: 2 year college diploma. great training. closer to home, but costs over 50K!

I'm leaning more towards Sault personally but what do you all think is the best option? Does Sault have a good reputation with Air Canada?

I know anything can change between now and next year, but right now that's what I have it narrowed down to. I need some help figuring out the best route, anything is appreciated!!

BTD · Post by **BTD** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:13 pm

Hey,

I can only speak for the Sault. Grad in April 05. Am instructing now. The sault is very good. Excellent sims to use anytime you want. Fun aircraft to fly. Like you said all gvt subsidized. Great people. If you haven't been up there for a look check it out. (do the same for Moncton). It was a fair distance from where I lived too, but it doesnt matter after the first week or so. Some people have to go home every other weekend if thats your deal it will make it harder. I went home like 6 or 7 times the 3 years i was there. Only thing is you can get booted in 3rd year for failing you're MIFR if you have no time left. (Extra time is like 3-5 hrs per semester or something, I can't remember)

Great place. I have nothing bad to say about Moncton either. Check them both out.

By the way I am currently instructing on The Diamond Eclipse which I believe is what they are flying up in Moncton. Its tons of fun to fly as well. I give both the zlin and the Eclipse top marks for fun.

Hope this helps, if it is understandable.

BTD

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:13 pm

Don't forget about Confederation College if you want to do some float. Air Canada treats Seneca, Sault and Confed all the same. It treats Moncton as nothing.

I had a blast at Sault College, but I still have the odd nightmare about the place. (I'm serious.)

Sault is the cheapest Comm. Multi-IFR in Canada.

Confed is the cheapest Comm. float in Canada.

I don't know how it works if you're from out of province though. Email the CFIs of where you want to go for the best information.

Good luck!

-istp

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:13 pm

Just to be clear, Sault is not a degree. (unless something has changed since last year)

It is one of the best places I've been as far as flight instruction goes. They have great equipment, great maint., very knowledgable instructors, pretty good extra curriculars (if you like the outdoors, and don't mind the cold).

Much like the last 2 posters, I haven't spent any time at Moncton, but I hear nothing but good things.

If it really comes down to what's closer to home, might I humbly suggest that at some point in your life you will have to leave the nest. If you're ready to spend time away from Mom and Dad, great. If you need some more time, maybe choose a place closer to home. I'm not trying to be insulting here, there were plenty of people that I've gone to school who quit or failed cause they just weren't ready to be so far away from home. If this is you, don't set yourself up for failure! It's all about knowing your limitations. If you're ready to meet the world, Sault is a great place to start... many life lessons await you there. (I'm sure Moncton is equally informative, if somewhat more expensive.)

Let us know how it goes.

m_p

Spruce Moose · Post by **Spruce Moose** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:33 pm

Thanks for the advice guys!! I really appreciate it.

Like I said, i'm definately leaning more towards Sault, and I keep hearing nothing but good about it. I'll have to check out the subsidization thing though because i'm not a resident of Ontario, I lived there for a year if that would make a difference..

Mellow, thanks for the advice and no offense taken! Funny you should mention parents though, because it was my mom who suggested Moncton

. I have no problem leaving home and going off to a place like the Sault.

Outdoors and cold, i'd say Sault is no different than here then

, i'm into biking and hiking, never was a big hockey player though.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:23 pm

Ok, not to scare you away or anything, but it's not all sunshine and lollypops. I just don't want you to get too carried away with the 'nothing but good things'.

The Sault has it's drawbacks like any other place. There are politics and admin to deal with. Some poeple find the program very restrictive. There is dress code, rules up the wazoo, etc.

Both istp and BTD mentioned negatives, don't ignore them... You must understand that no matter where you go, there will be things that you don't like.

Good on ya for seeking advice though, I wish you luck and blue skies (atleast till you get to the IFR stage, then may you experience cloud time and minimums)

Cheers

P.S. Anyone from Moncton have insight??? Kinda one sided here.

FYI GFY · Post by **FYI GFY** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:33 pm

This IS kinda one-sided, but I'm afraid I have to jump on the heavier side too!

To be honest, there is a lot of nonsense to deal with that the Sault that will make you want to stab yourself in the face. If you can put up with all that stuff, at the end of the three years it'll feel great to finish that last flight test that you look back with a big shiz-eating-grin and say "Yes. I did that.".

But thats not why I'm really on board with the Sault side. The thing about the Sault, is that despite all the BS and the politics, they really do a PHENOMINAL job of getting you ready for those first couple entry level jobs. It wasn't until I started working as an instructor that I realized what an advantage the Sault gives you over some of the other programs in Ontario. Not that there's anything wrong with them, but it really doesn't seem like they're geared towards todays changing aviation industry. I've actually gained quite a bit of respect for programs I used to bash over a few beers since I've been working with these people, but you can certainly pick a Sault grad out of a group.... sitting on the flightline or on a patio at a bar.

The experience you get there is life changing. It was good for me to come out of a big city and see what the real Canada is like, but I'm not the only kind of person who benefits from a program like that. Now that I work in a flight school, I tell everyone if they're pursuing a career in this business, DON'T STAY AT THE SCHOOL FOR YOUR CMIFR. Go to the Sault. It will do you so much good in the long run (don't tell my boss).

Its not just the training, and its not just the experience. After going through the Sault program, the way you think about things changes. I guess it could be the science course, they tend to mold people's minds. Or it could be the ability to drink a case of beer in a single bound. Whatever it is, it does the trick. Come graduation, you're ready for whatever the first job brings you.

Best of luck man, I know its not an easy decision. But believe me, you haven't REALLY lived until you've hit the dime with your friends cause "you couldn't really think of anything else to do".

Cheers

-SDG

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:53 pm

Spruce
Booth schools are fantastic, and both are in good standing throughout the industry. But going to either school is not going to get you an interview with Air Canada; no school can claim that, no school has the advantage.

To get an interview with Air Canada you have to get enough “points” to for them to look at you. By points I mean experience. Total time, heavy time, jet time, PIC, EFIS/FMS time, post secondary and so on, the more of these that you have, the more “points” your awarded. Also where you flew and what types of flying you have on your resume also plays a part. Family connections also help.

So being in your position I would be more concerned about getting your ratings ASAP, while getting post secondary. So in my opinion a 2-year program is preferable to a 3 year one.
The last thing you want to have happen is the industry tank just before you finish your training and are unable to get that all important first flying job. And it will tank with the next economy downturn.

Any school in this country is only a vehicle to get your training, and really none has any advantage over the other. Yes some are better than others, but what happens after your training is way more important than what school’s is name is on your diploma.

Cheers.

PS, I should mention that I did my multi IFR at Moncton and found that school to be top notch. I give my vote to MFC.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:25 am

...oh yes...the dime...

...is that place still in business?...it was pretty scary back in the early nineties...

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:50 pm

JohnnyHotRocks wrote:...oh yes...the dime... ...is that place still in business?...it was pretty scary back in the early nineties...

For those that don't know, the strip bar in the Soo (there's only one now, Pure Platinum closed in 2004) is called Studio 10, or to the locals, The Dirty Dime, or Dime for short. It is a wonderful place frequented by Sault College students even though it and some of the girls smell funny.

Yes it is still in business.

Here's a picture of the lovely establishment:

-istp

lazy · Post by **lazy** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:10 pm

Gotta stand up for moncton guys. It's a great school with a lot going on right now, also think about what you want to do when you finish, if you want to instruct there is alot going on in moncton these days.
Cheers

fingersmac · Post by **fingersmac** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:00 pm

KAG wrote:really none has any advantage over the other.

The one big advantage is that Sault is funded by the government.

I chose to go to Confederation College, because like Sault, it is subsidized heavily by the goverment. The program is 2 years (18 months really) and includes all your flight training plus an accredited college diploma for $8500, which is a far cry from the $50K at MFC. Plus you can qualify for OSAP student loans and bursaries. I personally think this is an enormous advantage.

If I remember correctly, Sault is around $13.5K for the three year program including your flight training.

As for quality of training, I'm sure they are all equal.

monkeyspankmasterflex · Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:52 pm

From the AC website:

Pilot applications far exceed job vacancies, so preference is given to candidates with qualifications beyond the basic requirements. Examples of desirable additional qualifications include, but are not limited to:

Canadian Airline Transport Pilot licence
University degree or college diploma
Aviation College diploma
Military or commercial flight experience
Jet and/or glass cockpit experience
Additional language(s)

My guess is either program would qualify. There's definitely something to be said for getting yourself into the job market sooner than later but if the job market does slowdown I'd rather owe 15 vs 50.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:24 pm

fingersmac wrote:
KAG wrote:really none has any advantage over the other.
The one big advantage is that Sault is funded by the government.

I chose to go to Confederation College, because like Sault, it is subsidized heavily by the goverment. The program is 2 years (18 months really) and includes all your flight training plus an accredited college diploma for $8500, which is a far cry from the $50K at MFC. Plus you can qualify for OSAP student loans and bursaries. I personally think this is an enormous advantage.

If I remember correctly, Sault is around $13.5K for the three year program including your flight training.

But do you have to be a resident of ONT to qualify for this?
If so, that is kind of unfair.

As for quality of training, I'm sure they are all equal.

navguy · Post by **navguy** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:40 am

It's interesting that ISTP wrote that Air Canada treats Moncton as nothing. There are many Moncton grads flying for Air Canada as well as many other airlines all over the world. They have been a school for over 75 years and have over 15000 graduates. I would like to hear the head of hiring at Air Canada say that he considers Moncton as nothing considering there are a few grads from Moncton who are their top training Captains. I would probably say with those numbers there are as many Moncton grads flying for Air canada as any other school. When you are considering schools there is a lot to think about, but whether Air Canada will hire you because you went to a particular school is not one of them. There are many Air Canada pilots who came from schools all over Canada big and small. What you should be thinking about is cost and quality of training. I think Moncton and Sault are probably on the same scale as far as quality of training, price is another factor. Sault is a great program and cheaper but if you screw up you're out. When I was at Moncton there were a few guys from Sault who got kicked out. The funny thing is they were really smart good pilots. With a subsidized program they accept a lot more 1st year students than there allowed to graduate after 3rd year, saying that I have heard nothing but great things about the program from the guys I know that actually passed. As far as Moncton is concerned its a kick ass place to learn how to fly. Its non-profit which is nice because at the end of the day everyone is a member and theres no owner saying wheres my profit, all the money goes back into the school. The facilities are brand new as well as the aircraft. They have 6 diamonds now as well as the Cessnas and Twins and I heard they are supposed to be getting 7 more new Diamonds by the end of the year.
The only thing I can say is actually visit the schools you are thinking about applying to. Don't be afraid to ask questions the one thing I liked about Moncton was that before I started they weren't saying if you come here you will be hired before grads from other schools or you will probably find a job when you graduate because you are going to school here. They didn't make any promises except to say that i would learn a lot and enjoy my time in Moncton. In the end they were right!!!
Oh and by the way ISTP in my class at Moncton were 5 Air Canada pilots kids including the son of the President of the Air Canada Pilots Association.
So if Air canada treats us Moncton grads as nothing I don't think those Air Canada Pilots got the memo!!!!!

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:09 pm

Navguy, I wrote that whole "nothing thing" because I thought that AC counts Sault, Seneca, Confed. and that one in Quebec as one point, but other college programs were zero points. That's just my grapevine remembery skills as a source. So I could be wrong.

-istp

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:44 pm

Officially, Sault doesn't have a 'quota' for third year like Seneca does (or did, has that changed?). (ofcourse if everyone passes, they don't have enough airplanes or instructors)

fingersmac · Post by **fingersmac** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:09 pm

KAG: The program used to be open only to Ontario residents, since I believe the government funding comes from the provincial, not the federal government. In recent years the program has been open to every province and I have classmates from coast to coast. Every student, regardless of home province, pays the same subsidized tuition, however, qualifying for OSAP is a whole other story.[/b]

ATF · Post by **ATF** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:57 pm

Navguy, I don't want to burst your "optimistic" bubble but to say that having a total of 5 kids in your year be ac brats isn't saying very much since about 1/3 of kids at seneca or sault have parents that are air canada pilots. Also, last I heard at the ac water cooler, Don Johnson wasn't the most well liked man at the company so I wouldn't go around proclaiming that his son was in your year.

Canoehead · Post by **Canoehead** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:41 am

A few things.

I was the first official "out of province" aviation student at the Soo. That was 1994. I was subsidized just like all the other Ontario residents. I believe there is a certain percentage that they can accept from out of province. I was the percentage that year. OSAP is a no go unless you are an Ontario resident. Most banks have fairly similar loan programs available though.

When AC posts that they prefer "Aviation College Diploma", this does not mean just any "college diploma". Nowadays, every flying school/club has a "diploma" program. Some would even consider themselves to be "professional" programs, because they make you wear a tie and have a fancy King Air FTD at their disposal. The term "Aviation College" is referring specifically to the community colleges- schools mandated and governed by provincial governments (ie Ontario Ministry of Education, Alberta Ministry of Education, Quebec Ministere de l'Education...). So this generally includes schools (community colleges) such as The Sault, Seneca, Confederation, Mount Royal etc... Sorry, but MFC doesn't count here.

Having said that, Moncton is probably one of the best of the private schools. Perimeter in YWG is another highly reputable school.

There are many people who work at AC and Jazz who have nothing more than highschool and their tickets. Most important is experience and how you interview (and sim eval and medical and psych). Having the internal recommends help too. There are many of the "college grads" who will not get to these places for the same reasons. Understand this: The Sault or Seneca (etcetera) is not your ticket to the big show. They are only a part of the overall process!

Spruce Moose, I am slightly biased as I am a Sault grad (from Halifax), so I'll withhold my opinion on where to go

.

navguy · Post by **navguy** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:50 am

Obviously there would be more AC kids in the Ontario programs than in Moncton as they have a much higher population base than we do on the east coast. Most of the AC kids came from Ontario so obviously they saw something in Moncton that they liked. As for Don Johnson I haven't got a clue who you're talking about, they change the head of the AC pilots association every 2 or 3 years I believe and I graduated 5 years ago. Another thing just because there the kids of AC pilots doesn't make them brats. There are a few who think their shit don't stink, but most know that they will have to work hard to get where there parents are.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:07 pm

Not saying that the AC Kids didn't make the cut, but Sault/Seneca/confed have limited number of spots every year...lots get weeded out during the pre-enrollment testing.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:53 pm

ISTP, I always thought that ANY post secondary is a point with AC.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:56 am

sorry to go off topic, but anyone know if the SaultCollege bookstore still sells those "SaultCollege" logbooks??

Thanks,
John

Spruce Moose · Post by **Spruce Moose** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:44 am

Thanks everyone!! I sure have learned a lot.

istp - so that's what my new home looks like?

fingersmack - I lived in Ontario for a year, i'm not sure if that would qualify me as ever being a 'resident' or for OSAP, that's another thing i'll have to check out, but even paying 13K is better than 50.

canoehead - I was born in Halifax

, so you were the only one from outside of Ontario accepted that year?

When I go to NS this summer i'll try to check out Moncton. The Sault website says you only need a high school diploma with your basic math and english for their requirements, MFC just says high school diploma. Does anybody know what range of people they really accept? I'm pulling off mostly B's and i'm in academic subjects. Also, how tough is the entrance acceptence exam??