Why No Aerobatic Instruction

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Hedley
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Why No Aerobatic Instruction

Post by Hedley »

It has come up several times before, that people are puzzled as to why
you can't get aerobatic instruction in Ontario.

The following was posted to a public mailing list, and is interesting reading:
What is the problem (lack of aerobatic training facilities)?
There are a number of factors that conspire to make offering even basic
aerobatic training an
unviable endeavour in many areas.

I have attempted to offer basic aerobatic instruction and EMT training
here in Toronto, Canada for several
(5 +) years utilizing the Zlin 242L aircraft. The Zlin 242L is a superb
basic aerobatic training platform capable of
Intermediate level aerobatics but it all goes downhill from there. Call
me chicken if you like but I was never
overly keen on offering training in student supplied aircraft since in
those cases I usually wasn't thoroughly
familiar with either the aircraft type nor the quality and adequacy of
maintenance it may have received.

Not sure about the US but here in Canada you cannot legally offer flight
training that also involves supplying
the aircraft unless you can comply with the regulations governing an
authorized training facility which are pretty
onerous and costly for a single aircraft operation.

Between weather (100 days would be a good year), the costs involved in
maintaining a certified aerobatic
aircraft, relatively limited market, reliance on an established flight
school to host us under their organizational
infrastructure even breaking even would be a fond dream.

Here is a summary of the practical obstacles I experienced in (more or
less) priority order and of course,
utilization is a BIG factor:

1)
Cost of maintenance for a commercially operated, certified aerobatic
aircraft. Approximately 3 to 4 times that
of a C-172. The Zlin has a Lycoming AEIO 360 engine so no factor for
"foreign" cost premium is involved in that.

2)
Insurance costs for commercial aerobatic flight training. Interestingly,
it was simply the "flight training" aspect
that was responsible here, the aerobatic aspect didn't attract any
additional premium. Approximately $9,000
per year (as opposed to about 1/3 of that for private, non training ops
insurance)

3)
Weather. As you pointed out, 100 days per year in the Toronto area would
be a good year indeed. Unfortunately
a significant number of these would not fall on weekends or in season
that permitted evening daylight.

4)
Location. This factors in many ways but being located in a large
metropolitan area does pose problems. Hangar
costs were about $600 per month. We had to fly approximately 20 minutes
(each out and back) to the practice
area and even then we were in Class "E" airspace necessitating approval
of ATC to use the airspace. The local
ATC Center was very accommodating and we were able to negotiate a
"standing arrangement" with the ATC Centre
Manger to the extent they actually programmed our practice area
boundaries on their radar. I became very adept
at ATC communications in unusual attitudes and at the most inopportune
times and the odd temporary altitude
restrictions to accommodate arrivals when certain runways at Toronto
Pearson airport were in use was not a big deal.
Sometimes our ATC approval limited us to 5'000 ASL (3,500 AGL) rather
than 7 or 8,000 but that wasn't a big deal.
However, when the Centre Manager changed and the new guy wanted to check
our standing arrangement with
NavCanada, NavCanada got involved and required that we NOTAM our flights
24 hours in advance. That was a
problem in terms of any spontaneous flights and occasions when we
NOTAMed in anticipation of flying but then
didn't fly because of weather, student no-show etc. The powers that be
refused us a "special use" airspace
designation citing that there were already too many of those in the
Toronto area and they were not granting any
more. We might have been successful in getting a standing NOTAM but
didn't pursue that when the issue arose
due to other factors that were beginning to make our ops unviable.

Living/operating out of a smaller center would alleviate quite a bit of
these "location" issues.

5)
Dependency on a commercial flight school to "host" us under their flight
training organizational infrastructure.
This actually wasn't a huge obstacle provided the flight school was
willing but it does leave the whole thing
vulnerable to their whims and added another $22 per hour to the cost. It
also involved our having the enter into a
lease of the aircraft to the flight school, my joining their instructor
roster (where I was paid $25 of the $50 dual
hourly rate), another layer of "book keeping" for both parties and most
problematic of all, by law they were
responsible for the aircraft's maintenance. This meant all maintenance
requirements had to be arranged
through and documented by them (in second priority to maintenance of
their own Cessna fleet). Much of our
maintenance was performed by a Zlin factory trained A&P but we couldn't
just call him, purchase orders had
to be issued by the flight school etc. Something as simple as replacing
or overhauling a tach could become a
major exercise in logistics to accomplish quickly. Once a faulty tach
took us off the line for 3 and 1/2 weeks.

6)
Last but not least....... the students themselves. Firstly, the market
is small and a couple a month would be the
VERY best I could ever expect. I can recall many instances where I went
to the airport for a single lesson on a given
day. My "pay" (before tax) didn't even cover the cost of getting to and
parking at the airport. I also remember MANY
weekends when I stayed in the city rather than go to the lake, changing
family plans around for whole weekends to
accommodate one aerobatic lessons over the weekend etc. only to have to
cancel due to weather. On more than
a couple of occasions I had students cancel at the last minute due to
other conflicting priorities in their lives. I'm not
really blaming it on the students but most approached this type of
instruction as a casual sort of thing.

One potential solution to this aspect (middle aged part time instructor
with other demands on time) was to train up
a younger flight instructor who would be at the airport doing flight
training every day anyway. Believe it or not, I had
a difficult time getting any takers on this. Once instructors gain a
little instruction experience they want to concentrate
on IFR and multi IFR training which is more use on the resume in terms
of finding a "real" flying job.

When I learned aerobatics I made it THE priority in my life for the few
months of (winter) weekends it took for me to
become proficient. When I took my aerobatic instructor's course (an
actual Transport Canada license rating here in
Canada) I took two full weeks off work to do it (and then some evenings
and weekends as well). Given all of the obstacles
I've mentioned above it took absolute, unwavering and total commitment
for me to get those things accomplished.

Fortunately, I NEVER expected to actually make a living from aerobatic
training and I can't see how anyone could (at
least in the part of the continent). But, the reality was we couldn't
even break even. So, we are no longer offering aerobatic
training.

Oh, yeah. At the time we were charging (CDN) $350/hour dual which some
found "rather expensive" but at which rate we
were not even breaking even.

I still get a couple of calls a month (on average, depending on the
season) regarding aerobatic training. The fact is, I am
unaware of anyone in Eastern Canada formally offering aerobatic training
on an ongoing basis. I now suggest that if a student
is serious about aerobatics they need to take a week off and travel to
one of the locations in the US where weather is more
reliable. I also make referrals to some of the instructors I know in
other parts of the US but point out the weather factor as being
a significant issue. This works for the truly keen and committed but it
doesn't really help the pilot who would like to get a taste
of aerobatics before becoming involved.

These were our experiences as relates to providing aerobatic training.
While some of the obstacles were indeed frustrating, I'm
glad that a) I had the opportunity to get trained AND seized that
opportunity before the flight school I trained with gave it up and
b) that we made a sustained effort to make it work ourselves.

At least I know intimately now why it is so difficult to find aerobatic
training in this part of the world.

Brent
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Post by water wings »

nice post...But follow these instructions:
go slightly north of where you are to YOW
find Grob 115.
get inside.
Spin, loop, roll...weeeeee!!!!
ta-dah! aerobatic training.
Glad i could help.
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Post by Hedley »

While you're at it ... ask the instructor to calculate W&B :wink:
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Post by Babel Fish »

Hedley wrote:While you're at it ... ask the instructor to calculate W&B :wink:
Why? Are you having trouble with that too? :roll:
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Post by Hedley »

I guess you're not the sharpest tool in the shed, babbling fishmouth, so I will spell it out in painful detail for you:

With two people on board, to be below the maximum allowed aerobatic gross weight in a Grob 115, you can't carry enough fuel for the flight.

Now, did I use any words you didn't understand? Try re-reading the above sentence a couple times, I hope your lips don't get too tired.

Now onto the positive features of the Grob 115: it is underpowered, so it has a very limited vertical. Slow roll rate. No inverted fuel or oil systems means the engine cuts out and it pukes out all the engine oil at less than zero G.

What a great aerobatic airplane! Where do I sign up?

P.S. Ask what happens in September.
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Post by chipmunk »

Hedley wrote: With two people on board, to be below the maximum allowed aerobatic gross weight in a Grob 115, you can't carry enough fuel for the flight.
So exactly when did you last do a weight and balance for the G115?? Maybe I (and, oh, a dozen professional pilots I know and respect) have to go back to Grade 2 and learn to add.

Know your facts before start spouting things off... sure, it's not the greatest aerobatic airplane in the world, but it's a nice trainer for the basic maneuvers, affordable, not a tailwheel so fewer insurance issues for flight schools, a whole lot of fun... and need I say LEGALLY operated? Aerobatic Instructor Rides are conducted on that thing all the time... or maybe the TC inspectors who do them need to go back to Grade 2 also.
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Post by Hedley »

Transport Canada Inspectors in the employ of OAS break the rules, all the time.

Shall I remind you of the time that an intrepid Transport Inspector with the initials W.F. (first name rhymes with Drain, second name rhymes with Ploy) who decided to illegally hand-prop the Champ one day, with no one at the controls, and it wasn't tied down?

Of course, it started, and it went around in circles, with W.F. hanging off the strut, dragging his heels, the engine roaring.

I will pay $100 to anyone with video of the blessed event. I'd like to put it up on our web site, as an example of Transport Canada Inspector airmanship.

Eventually, the aircraft hit something, prop flailing away. It was destroyed, and no charges were laid, naturally, against W.F.
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Post by jetway »

Hedley, for someone who has an aerobatic website, you sure do have a problem supporting anyone else who out loops or out rolls you. This is not the first post where you have blatantly ignored the other aerobatic schools and pilots, not only in Ontario, but Canada. They exist, and don't understand why one of "our own" is acting like a Transport inspector with a bad wedgie.

PS, what do the actions of a retired inspector, on his days OFF, flying a private fabric aircraft have to do with aerobatic training... oh wait, i know who you are... now i get it...it all makes sense. :roll:
I however chose not to name your exploits and frantic nonesensical outbursts worthy of a therapist on here as you have done to others, even though witnesses are still talking about that "guy"

Grow up Hedley and get your head out of your ass. This is an aviation community. at least pretend to be a part of it.

Oh yeah, read this yourself and inform yourself about this Aerobatic TRAINER!!, i repeat, in simple terms...a train-er
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grob_G_115
and for those who are wondering what the heck a Grob is http://www.grob-aerospace.de/get.php4?pageid=1
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Post by Hedley »

This is not the first post where you have blatantly ignored the other aerobatic schools and pilots
Gosh, your reading comprehension is poor. I didn't write the original article. Take a look at the signature at the end of it - Brent in Toronto wrote it, I DIDN'T.

And I can only apologize if my aerobatic flying skills aren't up to yours(shrug)

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Post by RR_Dart »

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Last edited by RR_Dart on Thu Oct 28, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hedley
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Post by Hedley »

Your comments about it puking all its oil out at less than zero G are a little bit over the top
My apologies, XXXXX, I was just repeating what one of your former aerobatic instructors told me, about the mess it made.

btw, why do you insist on using so many different userids? Kinda childish ... one must wonder what you have to hide.

I realize you don't think I'm very bright compared to you, but a couple of points on your W&B:

1) Redo your W&B with 22lb parachutes for each occupant, please. Unless you think it's ok to fly acro without chutes.

2) Your fuel burn is very optimistic. Interesting philosophy to be teaching students. With a 160hp Lyc O-320 installed (I just googled the G115) you might alternatively try teaching your students about BSFC ... that is, 0.5 lbs of fuel per hour is required to produce each horsepower. I presume you use wide open throttle for takeoff, climbout, and aerobatics (it doesn't have much power to spare) .... 160 * 0.5 = 75 pph, at 6 lbs per US gal, that's 12.5 us gph, not your very optimistic 8.8 gph.

You said there was 106 lbs of fuel allowed. Ok, minus 2 x 22 lbs for parachutes is actually a massive 62 lbs of fuel. With a burn rate of 75 pph, to COMMENCE aerobatics you can have a maximum of 62/75 = 0.82 hours of fuel, or 50 minutes (!) of fuel.

Maybe that's ok directly overhead the airport, but when you add in the required cross-country to and from the practice area, it's pretty dicey as to whether or not you can fly your acro lesson, then fly x/c back to the airport and still meet VFR minimum fuel reserves.

btw, the business about calling me an Enforcement Inspector with a wedgie is pretty offensive, XXXXXXX. If you want to have private pilots fly charter, you go right ahead. I have never, ever called Enforcement, and never, ever will. YOU were the one that called Enforcement.

What actually happened (I was there, you weren't) is that the private pilots who were about to commence commercial charter ops for you, did a lengthy preflight of a C172, then pronounced it ready to fly and pulled it out.

However, these private pilots in your employ, during their lengthy preflight, did not notice that the nose oleo was flat. I pointed this out to them, and mentioned that the nose oleo could be damaged if it was operated like that.

Maybe I'm not allowed to point that out to someone, but you might remember that I AM ONE OF THE OWNERS OF THAT 172 and thus might be entitled to express concern about operation which might damage it.

At this point, you went bananas, calling Transport Enforcement at home, threatening to call the police, etc.

What a wanker. All it would take is 5 minutes and some compressed air to fix it.

One can only wonder why you would think I would want to be part of a "community" composed of yourself and XXX wonder starter boy.

I have concluded that XXXXXXXXX doesn't make up the crazy stuff he writes about - it probably really happened.

P.S. XXXXXX isn't enough money in the world, for you to pay me to share a cockpit with you. Some business you just don't want, at any price.
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Post by av8tor_assrope »

dude..............hedley i want your job man...how do i get me in one of em' sc2's
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Post by Blue Side Down »

Are they letting them (the 2c) into the country yet?
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Post by jetway »

I can assure you , there is only one Clunckdriver as there is only one jetway. I can see it annoys you not to know who I am. Cowardly not to reveal myself? Perhaps, but all together too much fun right now. 8) See you around, perhaps. It will become clear one day.

And regarding the fact that you are under the impression that I think you wrote the aticle in your original post, I am aware you did not. I am refering to the multiple posts on not only this thread , but others, devaluing the many aerobatic training facilities in this country. And now it is obvious you have taken a personal grudge against one individual onto a public forum. Fast way to low ground, Boyd
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Post by water wings »

Hedley... you do realize you are no the only pilot on this forum, and certainly not the only aerobatic pilot. In any case, glad to see you are repeatedly getting free advertising on AvCanada. :roll:

btw: Pitts are for Chicks!!! :smt061 Image
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Post by Hedley »

it annoys you not to know who I am. Cowardly ...
Sir: you make the mistake of thinking that I might give a sh1t about your opinion.
devaluing the many aerobatic training facilities in this country
Many? (snort) aerobatics in Canada is a lot like figure skating in Jamaica. Hey, wasn't there a movie about that?

In the meantime, I guess I might go flying, or maybe take the boat out for a spin:

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Post by chipmunk »

It would be impossible for Clunckdriver to be one of the other posters on this thread... If you look back at his previous posts, you will find that he is unable to make a post without a typo! :D
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Post by chipmunk »

Yes, you do OK, but it makes for quite a distinctive posting style!

p.s. I can spell "Texas." :lol:
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Post by mcrit »

Hedley: I've been reading this thread, and I'm willing to bet you know your aerobatics. However, I'm going to offer you some advice on another topic. Shut up, and let this topic go, you are making yourself look like a complete numpty. After looking at the attitude that you displayed here, I wouldn't turn you loose with a paper a/c, let alone pay you to get into a cockpit.
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Post by Hedley »

I'm willing to bet you know your aerobatics
... and to paraphrase Richtofen, all else is rubbish.
I wouldn't ... pay you to get into a cockpit
No problem, it is your money after all. I must presume you have an awful lot of it - congratulations!

But why on earth would you have the idea that I would ever need your (or anybody else's) money to fly an airplane? That's pretty funny.

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Post by water wings »

Thank you Hedley!!! you just made me 25 dollars richer!!! i put money on the fact that you would no doubt post pics of either the Pitts (20$), a car (25$) or a motorbike or the damn boat again(30$) . if you had posted pics of last night's dinner, i would have earned a cool 100$.

what is that old saying about making up for one's shortcomings?... :P

...Paranoia, big destroyah!
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Post by Hedley »

And I'm glad you're $25 "richer" - I can see that's a lot of money to you, you're so very excited about it! :lol:

P.S. Since it annoys you so, here's a picture of that "damned boat" again!

Image[/b]
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Post by quicksilver »

The car is hot, the plane is cool...but the boat? Come on, its screaming: Image

quick
PS I'm glad your rich, because you seem like you wouldn't be interesting otherwise.
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Post by Hedley »

I'm sorry, did you say something about the boat?

Image

I should mention, for completeness, that's boat #1.

Would you like to see boat #2? It's a 41 foot Sea Ray:

Image

I don't have a picture of boat #3. It's a Fountain 31 footer with
dual 225hp outboards, tied up outside the place in the Bahamas.
I'll try to dig up a photo of it. It's a lot of fun on the open ocean.

P.S. What's that funny red thing in your posting? Never
seen it before, what do you use it for?
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Post by . ._ »

While we're comparing sizes, here's a picture of my bike. It's locked up under the stairs at my apartment, and going down hill, it goes pretty fast. The best thing is that it has aftermarket fenders so if you go through a puddle, you don't get the "skunk stripe".

Yeah, I got me a 1990 Schwinn Woodlands.

Image

-istp 8)
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