Just so I feel good....

Swotter · Post by **Swotter** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:46 pm

I have a hypothetical situation:

Pilot works for a company for the outlined contract time; 1 year. Signs up for another year but 5 months into his 2nd year, gets another job offer. The usual conditions apply: Better Company, Bigger aircraft, Fast upgrade, better pay, benefts, etc.
Pilot does not want to burn bridges and is reluctant to break his word to the present employer to leave early. His word is his bond.
Pilot comes to a compromise with the current boss that he can leave in less than a year but not for another 3 or 4 months.
Pilot knows that this is an excellent opportunity and may not come up again for some time.
Pilot informs new company that is not available until XX Date due to contractual obligations to present employer.
Pilot decides that while he waits for answer he can seek approval and/or disapproval from his peers........

Hypothetically speaking of course.....

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:33 pm

Hopethetically say employer decides plane is no longer profitable. Will they give you 4 months notice?

bob sacamano · Post by **bob sacamano** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:43 am

The only time to be a company man is when you own the company.

Otherwise, look out for #1.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:28 am

Your employer wouldn't hesitate to let you go if he could profit from it...you have to look out for number one!

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:24 am

Interesting how people will go on about pilots who sign the contract and then bail thus creating the need for training bonds in the first place.

Yet here we have someone suggesting this scenario, and the first three responses are supportive of that, although co-joe is alittle ambiguous.

In this hypothetical situation, might I suggest that you understood and accepted the risk when you signed up for the second year. However, what hypothetical company would require a person to sign up on a year-to-year basis? What kind of re-current training would be required on an annual basis? I can understand a 1 or 2 year bond on initial training, but not a 1 year bond on recurrent training.

By the way, if you haven't figured it out, my answer is to stay put and finish out the contract. But then again

His word is his bond

since he already has no value in his word, might as well leave since the negotiated 3-4 months remaining in his contract will be with the employer distrusting him the whole time.

prop2jet · Post by **prop2jet** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:06 am

This day in age one tries not to burn any bridges however the reality is that loyalty and honour mean very little when looking at the economics of running a business.

The reality is that if faced with being "fat" on staff, most companies will opt to lay off, and usually this is the instinctive reaction. Ideally they will look at other options but this is seldom the case. Once in a while you find a business that tries to do the right thing (place staff elsewhere or cut in other depts), however they are in the minority.

Hypothetically, if all you have is another 3 or 4 months... I would leave, who is to say that the opportunity will still be there when you have honoured your committment. Further, I would question why it is that there is a committment year after year - ask yourself this: Are you a full time employee or a contract employee?

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:44 am

You have two choices. If you leave early pay off your bond, or B stay like you said.

If you bail, then your word is worth nothing.

Subsequent hires will have more punitive restrictions on their bonds.

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:45 am

Jesus Christ, this business just astounds me.

It's no wonder aviation in this country is so screwed and full of backstabbing, untrustworthy, greedy weasels. There is absolutely NO trust or respect, which are exactly the principles a good relationship is based on. What is it with this continual "us against them" mentality, whether coming from the pilots, engineers, or management? In another thread we've got some genius spouting "FUC# EM, look out for number 1". Here we've finally got a guy who's at least TRYING to do the right thing, and what he gets is advice to take a confrontational position.

Disappointing, but not surprising, I guess. My feeling is that this all stems from a complete lack of understanding about what the other side is dealing with.

Swotter : what you need to do is approach your current employer, sit down with them and discuss your situation as a rational human being. Explain how good this opportunity is, and how you'd really like to pursue it, but also don't want to leave them out in the cold. Believe me, your employer knows that he will be better off working out a way to satisfy both of you, than having you pissed off, unhappy, and working to the very minimum of your contractual obligations. You helping out while he finds a replacement (because, obviously you're not going to be there forever- he knows this) is better than them being left in a lurch when you bail. Who knows, they may even sweeten the pot to try and entice you to stay! Going after them from a confrontational standpoint will definitely NOT get the same results. I admire your principles, you'll do well in this business to stick with them.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:49 pm

Did you pay for training or anything? Give them 50% of their training costs(cash) and leave.........

That's why a bond is good, you pay them the remaining portion once you leave...........

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:33 pm

Donald wrote: Yet here we have someone suggesting this scenario, and the first three responses are supportive of that, although co-joe is alittle ambiguous.

Yeah a little I guess. It just blows me away how much employer's side of the story changes once you sign on the dotted line. Now the pay changes, the schedule changes, maybe the home base can change and you are stuck. All of a sudden all the promised working condition start to go out the window and you are left swallowing the rest.

Airtids wrote: Swotter : what you need to do is approach your current employer, sit down with them and discuss your situation as a rational human being. Explain how good this opportunity is, and how you'd really like to pursue it, but also don't want to leave them out in the cold.

Yeah right. Tell them you are thinking about leaving and you may as well quit now. All future upgrades won't go your way, and you'll be treated like a bitch for the next few months, and if the other job won't wait that long you're FUBAR.

Whatever you do, be decisive about it, give 2 weeks notice if you quit and do your best to salvage a reference.

I'm not saying leaving is the only option. I think a reference is something that can't be bought, only earned, and in this business references are uber important. But if the new job is that good, you have no choice.

Make a balance sheet. in one column detail the pros and job B and on the other side the pros of job B. Below that compare the cons, all of them. The result will be obvious when you look at them on paper.

... · Post by **...** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:50 pm

Airtids wrote:Jesus Christ, this business just astounds me. It's no wonder aviation in this country is so screwed and full of backstabbing, untrustworthy, greedy weasels. There is absolutely NO trust or respect, which are exactly the principles a good relationship is based on. What is it with this continual "us against them" mentality, whether coming from the pilots, engineers, or management? In another thread we've got some genius spouting "FUC# EM, look out for number 1". Here we've finally got a guy who's at least TRYING to do the right thing, and what he gets is advice to take a confrontational position. Disappointing, but not surprising, I guess. My feeling is that this all stems from a complete lack of understanding about what the other side is dealing with.

Swotter : what you need to do is approach your current employer, sit down with them and discuss your situation as a rational human being. Explain how good this opportunity is, and how you'd really like to pursue it, but also don't want to leave them out in the cold. Believe me, your employer knows that he will be better off working out a way to satisfy both of you, than having you pissed off, unhappy, and working to the very minimum of your contractual obligations. You helping out while he finds a replacement (because, obviously you're not going to be there forever- he knows this) is better than them being left in a lurch when you bail. Who knows, they may even sweeten the pot to try and entice you to stay! Going after them from a confrontational standpoint will definitely NOT get the same results. I admire your principles, you'll do well in this business to stick with them.

Ladies and Gents...this is the best post/contribution to this site I have ever seen.

Wow.

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:37 pm

co-joe wrote: Yeah right. Tell them you are thinking about leaving and you may as well quit now. All future upgrades won't go your way, and you'll be treated like a bitch for the next few months, and if the other job won't wait that long you're FUBAR.

Co-joe, I feel sorry for you (and the others out there who share your feeling) if that's your opinion of operators. I don't know a single operator who started out to try and be an a$$hole. Realities of the business like regulation, economics, shareholders, bank managers, unethical competitors, industry downturns, maintenance issues, staff problems etc, etc. turned some of them to the "Dark Side". Did you ever think that the ones you ran across got that way because they got farked by some a$$hole pilot? It happened to us, but I decided this kid wasn't going to turn me into someone I didn't want to be. Most of us pilots who've gotten somewhere in this biz have worked for one of these types at least once; you make it sound like that's all there is out there. I'm here to tell you it ain't, and for the vast majority (a$$holes and sweethearts alike), dealing with a situation as a professional is always a better solution than running away from a problem (ie. BAILING)
Couple of questions: WHAT future upgrades? THE GUY"S LEAVING IN 4 MONTHS!! Do you think it would be ethical of him to take an upgrade even if it was offered, knowing he's leaving? Would YOU take the upgrade just to leave?
If you're needed that badly that leaving early would create a hardship they're not going to treat you like a biatch because you stayed. You've helped them to understand your situation, and they'll recognise (if not appreciate) the sacrifice you made. If you bail on them mid-contract with two weeks notice and no explanation then sure as hell your last two weeks will suck, and rightly so: You were a di@k!! I'm not saying you need to be a saint and stay until the end of your contract regardless what the repercussions and potential loss to you may be, I'm just saying approach the operator, discuss it openly knowing that if you get nowhere, you're back to giving two weeks notice and leaving mid-contract, but AT LEAST YOU TRIED!!
If one of my pilots came to me with this situation, I would call the other employer, give them a ringing endorsement of said staffer in the hopes that securing a great employee would be incentive for them to hold the position for a mutually satisfactory time. If that wasn't possible, then my guy's gotta go, because he's not going to be happy in my employ anymore feeling he's being held back. Unhappy employees cost WAAAAYYY more than training someone new. Nobody wins, so cut the cord. The only companies in this nation who actually EXPECT their pilots to retire from their ranks are Big Red and Westjet. Everyone else sees themselves as a stepping stone (because everyone else potentially is) and is just waiting for their staff to move on. Do it ethically, with your head held high, and you'll be doing yourself and all the rest of us pilots AND operators a favor.

I don't mean to get on you, CJ, and I appologise for the rant, but this whole narrow-minded approach to this topic just grates me. WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??!! Take a walk in each others shoes, so to speak... er type.

IABD:

I'm also a Cambodia supporter. Costa Rica a close second, and always will have a soft spot for Cameroon.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:03 pm

Airtids wrote: Couple of questions: WHAT future upgrades? THE GUY"S LEAVING IN 4 MONTHS!! Do you think it would be ethical of him to take an upgrade even if it was offered, knowing he's leaving? Would YOU take the upgrade just to leave?

If one of my pilots came to me with this situation, I would call the other employer, give them a ringing endorsement of said staffer in the hopes that securing a great employee would be incentive for them to hold the position for a mutually satisfactory time.

NO, he wants to stay but if he gets f@cked by the other operator and doesn't get hired because he wants to FULFILL his commitment to the original guy, then what? No more upgrades, cause you even assumed he'll be leaving, and don't think it's right to upgrade him... CJ has been proven CORRECT....

Second point, if that was the case, you'd be a nice guy, and that way you'd ALL(3 parties) know where you stand...

So best advice, if you want to stick around, talk to your CP and owner, and discuss it..

FINALLY, you should have discussed this shit before you even started/renewed your contract, "hey whoever, I'm gonna take this job, but keep in mind I'm still looking for bigger and better..." Oh, but then you might not get the job, funny, how the operator always has the upper hand....

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:07 pm

Well said Airtids, I appreciate your side of the coin for sure. It just seems that no matter who I work for it's the same game over and over again. They promise you the world and you think :"hey If big red and WJ never call this is a place I could spend my career" and then one day the story changes.

Instead of upgrading you, they hire someone with a PPC because it's cheaper. Instead of giving you a raise, they don't. Instead of paying benefits they don't. Then one day they change your schedule with no regard for you or how it affects you.

I'm all for contracts, but they should be two sided contracts. If I leave I owe you for my training, if you screw me out of an upgradr, lower my pay, or take away my time off then the you owe me money. I think one year's salary is justified.

There I said it. It's a two way street. I leave I pay, you screw me you pay, then we can all get along.

Swotter · Post by **Swotter** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:26 pm

Wow, I am amazed by the responses. And for a while after the first 3, I was starting to feel like shit about my....ahem....my hypothetical pilot's situation.
But there were some even better ones after.

I shall simplify the situation:

-Pilot is second from the top of the pilot foodchain.
-There are no more upgrades.
-The one year agreement is not a contract on paper but it is verbal and, legally binding (in most countries)
-Pilot has no bonds
-The company is small and does not have a large complement of pilots to fill the "void" so... extra time must be taken to bring in and train a new guy

Pilot has spoken with current employer about new opportunity and they were not happy with initial decision to leave before the year was up, but have agreed to let me go earlier.
This

Pilot still waiting to hear from new employer........

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:53 pm

Swotter wrote:
Pilot has spoken with current employer about new opportunity and they were not happy with initial decision to leave before the year was up, but have agreed to let me go earlier.
This

Pilot still waiting to hear from new employer........

And that's where the crux lies.

JohnnyHotRocks · Post by **JohnnyHotRocks** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:20 am

I don't know a single operator who started out to try and be an a$$hole.

...then you have never met M.Leblanc

In another thread we've got some genius spouting "FUC# EM, look out for number 1"

...I never said "FUC# EM", and sorry, I was two points shy of genius on my IQ test...maybe if I try again I'll hit the mark

748 ho · Post by **748 ho** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:03 am

MEN ALWAYS TELLEM SEEYAAHHHHHHH!!! WHEN A BETTER OFFER AND
MORE DOPE IRON COMIN ON LINE!!!! LOOK OUT FOR NUMBER ONE AND THE HELL WITH THE REST THAT'S HOW YOU PLAY THIS GAME IT'S FOR
MEN NOT FOR PUSSEY'S!!!!!!!!!!

I TOLD THEM TAKE THAT 748 AND SHOVE IT GOT A BETTER OFFER!!!!!!
GOT ON A JET TOLD THEM TO POUND THE SAND WHEN AC CALLS!!!!!!!!!!!

THATS HOW YOU PLAYER MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apache64_ · Post by **Apache64_** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:38 am

I would agree with Airtids on this one. discuss it with your employer, if you can make an arrangement with both operators that works, good. if not, at least you tried. Of course your current operator wont be happy, they have to replace you and if your a good employee, your hard to replace, and any replacement will be a mystery. Of course, if your a shite employee, then the operator would be glad to see you go, obviously not the case here. The operators I have dealt with when leaving have been good, two weeks notice, thanks for working with us, if you need a reference call me types.

Cheers

Apache

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:13 am

Apache64_ wrote: The operators I have dealt with when leaving have been good, two weeks notice, thanks for working with us, if you need a reference call me types.

That's good to hear, but the rest of us are under the impression, "most" won't be like that, especially if it's 1 year contracts, would think that for example, WX mods doing the thunder storm stuff or H&L or summer float operator would be pissed if you left 1/2 way through your contract/term, seeing as it would be a heavy burden for them to replace you.

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:26 pm

Here is the important info:

-The one year agreement is not a contract on paper but it is verbal and, legally binding (in most countries)
-Pilot has no bonds
-The company is small and does not have a large complement of pilots to fill the "void" so... extra time must be taken to bring in and train a new guy

You are working at a small company where the boss has tried to treat you well. After all you renewed your agreement at least once and you have been promoted to the top position within the company. All without a written contract or bond of any sort.

Now something better has come along and you have the itch to further your career. No one can blame you for that, everyone wants to move up and fast while things are hot.

But to make the move you have to break your agreement with the owner, that it sounds like you enjoy working for. Guess what? If you do that then the verbal agreements will become a thing of the past, bonds with a financial penalty will be introduced, and your legacy will be of the person who caused this at XYZ company.

Some have suggested that you should just pay out what would have been the equal amount of training, as if you had been bonded. Keep in mind you said "extra time must be taken to bring in a new guy and train them". So there is the time and cost having the boss train the new guy, do a line indoc/check and assmiliate them into the company. All the while the regular pilots/FO's will be sitting. How much do you think all this will actually cost?

Again it is just my opinion that you should try to finish out the one year term if at all possible. If you just can't pass up the opportunity, and you wish to salvage some credit, be ready to bend over backwards helping them find and train your replacement.

Swotter · Post by **Swotter** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:07 pm

The Pilot does enjoy working at the current place of employment but there are also other factors at stake for leaving.
Such as: the town is not so great and he's been there for 2.5 years and frankly it's boring. The pay is not great and is having trouble keeping up with loan payments.
Pilot would stay another year but feels satisfied that he has done more time at the company than most other previous employees - 2.5 years. (usually pilots only stick around for 6 months to a year)
Pilot still feels that sticking through the busy season and then leaving would fair especially since there have been 3 months notice.

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:41 pm

If the pilot hadn't "signed up" for another year commitment, would he have been let go?

Is this any different than a float guy accepting a 185 job in May(possibly at the same place they worked the year before) and then leaving in July for a beaver job?

Swotter · Post by **Swotter** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:00 pm

No because the operation is year round. This just happens to be the busy-er season.
Anyway, I have had some good fat to chew on and I will consider all responses. Thanks to all.

Lurch · Post by **Lurch** » Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:27 pm

Donald I hope one day I have the honour of working for an employer with the class that you have.

I just the rest could follow suit. Your view was a nice change from the usual whinning.

Swotter, the market is quickly opening up and the chance of another opoertunity at the end of the one year contract is huge. Your word shows how much you respect yourself and your current employer, and the fact that the decision is taking so much consideration shows you respect the current employer and if all pilots were this honest training bonds wouldn't be around. It is people who say #$%^ um that are the ones who ruin it for the rest of us. Leaving with just 2 weeks notice isn't right, but the current company should respect your wishes to move on and make reasonable efferts to try and replace you.