Best Approach to Private License

[SquearlFSS]

Quick question,


I have wanted to get my PPL now for, but the high price is very unmotivating.

I have been reseraching plans of attack for getting my license and I was thinking about trying to get a C150 (or similar A/C) with a group of people who also want their license.

I wonder if this would be better than doing it through a club/school. The idea of owning the a/c is attractive as they hold there value well, and you arent restricted by the company rules and other things.

Wondering if anyone had insight on this method of training, or had ideas about other ways to spend less than the 9 G's it looks like it costs through most clubs/schools here in northern ON

[Hedley]

This can work very well, or can work very badly. Buying an aircraft is like getting married - it's fun at first, but gosh, you sure can end up spending a lot of money.

Get an aircraft with good engine. This does not necessarily mean that it is low hours since major, or not many years since major overhaul.

Get an aircraft with decent avionics. You spend $2000 on a radio, the value of the aircraft only goes up $1000. Guess which side of that you want to be on. You don't need a lot of radios, but you need a solid comm, and intercom (portable will do, if you can stand the radios) and maybe a mode C transponder if you must fly around large airports. If you can, save the money on the transponder/encoder and associated checks.

Use a portable GPS for nav. You don't need an ADF or VOR or DME.

Buying an aircraft, like getting married, is a very emotional decision. Please don't be fooled by new interior or shiny paint. Everyone likes to buy a paint job, and frankly it's the least important thing about an aircraft as far as it being airworthy.

Once you get an aircraft (150/152) then you will need to hangar/tiedown, insure (go for COPA liability only) and maintain it. Run it on mogas!

Have YOUR mechanic do the pre-buy inspection, NOT THE SELLERS. Have YOUR mechanic make a list of snags, to re-negotiate the price with, then have YOUR mechanic sign off an annual.

A "fresh annual" from a mechanic 1,000 miles away is worthless.

Now that you have an aircraft ... get a freelance instructor, who must be class 3 or better. Generally instructors are a dime a dozen but I understand lately this is not so much the case. Depending upon where you are, it can be easy or hard to contract an instructor.

Have fun!

[cyyz]

I have been reseraching plans of attack for getting my license and I was thinking about trying to get a C150 (or similar A/C) with a group of people who also want their license.

Wondering if anyone had insight on this method of training, or had ideas about other ways to spend less than the 9 G's it looks like it costs through most clubs/schools here in northern ON

3 people a/c 10k each, gas at 160/l, 75l to fill a 150 up? 120 for 4 hours? 1600 for gass for your private + oil, so 12k.... Still need instructor, tiedowns, insurance.... Price is escalating....

For a PPL, I don't think this would be your best bet.... For a CPL maybe...

http://www.torontoairways.com/becomeapi ... icense.htm

7100 for a PPL all inclusive except for the 200 exam fee and 35 governor fee, bastards.. so what, 7500.....



Are you gonna keep the plane after the PPL??? Are you buying a plane after your PPL???

[niss]

What kind of onus is on the mechanic doing the annual? do they have to provide a warranty on the work? If he sais its airworthy and it really isnt is he obligated to fix his errors?

[Hedley]

Good question, niss.

Remember that an AME works for two people: you, and Transport. He must keep both happy, if he is to stay in business.

If he signs off an aircraft as airworthy, and it isn't, both you and Transport will be pissed.

HOWEVER, life is rarely that black and white, and there is plenty of room for grey areas, misunderstandings and varying personal interpretations.

For example ... how much wear is acceptable on a spark plug? I'll bet if you show a variety of worn spark plugs to a variety of engineers, you will get different answers as to whether or not the spark plug should be replaced.

Same thing with control linkage slop, for example. One AME might have a cow about 1/16th inch slop on an aileron, another might not care. If neither the manufacturer, nor Transport precisely specify the tolerances as to what is airworthy, and what is not, then there are going to be grey areas. HUGE ones.

Most people are buying aircraft that are older than they are, these days. There is going to be plenty of wear.

Ask your mechanic what warranty he provides on his work. That's the warranty you'll get, if he is honourable.

[aero220]

3 people a/c 10k each, gas at 160/l, 75l to fill a 150 up? 120 for 4 hours? 1600 for gass for your private + oil, so 12k.... Still need instructor, tiedowns, insurance.... Price is escalating....

Don't forget that you get to sell that aircraft (or share) after you finish your Private licence. So at the start it may seem like it is more that $12,000 to get your licence but after you sell it it will work out to probably about $3,500 to get you licence (about half the price to get it elsewhere).

There is alot of work involved in aircraft ownership, so using it just for a few months to get a private will be cheaper but also a headache at times. If you are pursuing commercial training, or alot of time building, an aircraft partnership is worth it, it will save you over 60% (If you fly it at least 35 hours a month.

[SquearlFSS]

7100 dollars, the cheapest I have seen in the sudbury/north bay area is 9000, maybe this is just because of location.

3500$ after you sell the aircraft sounds like a good deal, I dont think I would be building for a CPL but I would definately be trying to build the PIC time required for a tow rating in the Air Cadet Glider Program, which needs 100 PIC with at least 10 tail dragger...all very costly, but worth it once you get to fly for free.

[Lommer]

I dunno, if someone has zero experience in aviation or light aircraft, I think purchasing an aircraft is premature. Get your medical, do all the private groundschool and learn about ADs, STCs, and shoot the shit with AMEs, pilots, and owners at your local airfield for hours on end (you'll probably have to buy a few brews). Then rent a plane for your first 10-20 hours or until you solo to make sure that this flying thing is really for you. I would consider the above an absolute minimum of experience for someone who is considering pluncking that kind of money into a plane. At that point, I dunno if investing in a plane is a risk worth taking to only finish your PPL; though its certainly worthwhile if you're going to CPL or interested in being a long-term owner. So yeah, there's my 2 cents. It's just that I have ~70 hours now and I feel barely qualified to make an informed decision about an aircraft puchase (I'd now have a decent idea of where to ask for advice, where to learn what I need to know, and a more finely tuned BS meter).

[cyyz]

Don't forget that you get to sell that aircraft (or share) after you finish your Private licence. So at the start it may seem like it is more that $12,000 to get your licence but after you sell it it will work out to probably about $3,500 to get you licence (about half the price to get it elsewhere).

That is true, but it's tough to sell your "share" in the A/C sometimes, also those "friends" you bought it with might not like the person your selling it to and then you're in trouble, cash or friendship..

What if your partners can no longer pay for maintenance, tie downs, etc, who's left with the bill??

Although more costly, if bought alone, you'd cut down on some headaches, creating a few new ones....

Just to buy a plane for 50 hours is going to be a big headache, you might look into just buying block time or "shares " in someone elses plane.

[square]

one easy way to save money on your PPL is to freaking blitzkreig it. fly everyday, even twice a day, armchair fly, study, get it done in as little time as humanly possible. the longer it takes you total, the more time you'll have to spend "brushing up" later on. and i would definitely advise against buying a plane without any experience first, a lot of people end up asking themselves what the hell they were thinking with this flying idea, or, unfortunately, just being a very bad fit in the cockpit. not to mention all the headaches it would cause, you'd be the one responsible for every little thing on that airplane, ADs, 50 hr inspections, and little things like changing the ELT battery. it's not an AME's job to hold your hand and remind you.

[SquearlFSS]

Well although I am not new to the aviation industry, these points are all definately very good. Some things I never even thought of, maybe the best bet is to save for my PPL and keep the owning my own plane alive for when I am close to retirement, can get a seniority bid to CYYG FSS and buy a nice float plane

[RatherBeFlying]

As for finding a plane, I'd ask around the airport to see if anybody wants to sell a share or a group has one available.

As before mentioned, some a/c and groups may be undesirable. A plane that is getting used could be a better bet than one that sits around for weeks on end.

I'd want to spend 10-20 hours flying the plane to get to know it, but the fly in the ointment is that TC regs don't allow an instructor to teach in a a/c that you are renting.

So here's my suggestion: Get a few hours on the plane of your dreams. If you still like it, make a deal to pay for it in installments. Make the final installment due in so many months or hours and the first installment enough to cover the first 10-20 hours. If evil stuff comes to light in that initial period, walk away from it. So where do you find an aviation lawyer to make sure you do this right?

[SquearlFSS]

What about finding an instructor,

or is there even such thing as a free lance instructor? I heard I would need to find someone who has a class three license, and then I would just need a TC Examiner to do my flight test.

I was wondering about homebuilts too, could you do a PPL on a home built or are there specific requirements for the a/c you are training on.

[Hedley]

is there even such thing as a free lance instructor?

I see ATAC's lobbying is working quite well ... YES, there is such a thing as a "freelance" instructor, which is defined as an instructor who is NOT in the employ of an FTU, while giving dual flight instruction.

Yes, they must be a class 3 (or 2, or 1), according to Transport.

I would just need a TC Examiner to do my flight test

er, no. Transport delegates everything to the private sector. All you need to do is find a DFTE (many are NOT associated with FTU's) to do the flight test.

could you do a PPL on a home built

Sure. I've instructed, and recommended students for flight tests in their homebuilts. HOWEVER ... some instructors (and DFTEs) may refrain from flying in some homebuilts, due to questions of quality of construction, modifications (never met a homebuilder who couldn't help but change SOMETHING) or unknown handling characteristics.

If you're having trouble finding an instructor, keep it simple and steer clear of homebuilts. Most instructors won't go near them.

[TC Guy]

er, no. Transport delegates everything to the private sector. All you need to do is find a DFTE (many are NOT associated with FTU's) to do the flight test.

Not entirely correct my friend. Unless they have changed things very recently, TC is mandated to do 5% of delegated flight tests. Oversight.

And, as I am sure you know, "DFTE" is so last year. "PE" (Pilot Examiner) is the new term. This is to be more in line with ICAO. Whatever. Same thing.



-Guy

[Hedley]

TC is mandated to do 5% of delegated flight tests

ok ... so I think you are saying that DFTEs (PEs, sure) do 95% of the delegated flight tests.

My point was that if our student phones up the local Transport office, and tries to book a private pilot flight test with a Transport Canada Inspector, the girl answering the phone will almost certainly explain that the student should find a DFTE, which is what I said.

Around here at least, Transport has really gotten out of the business of conducting recreational, private, commercial, multi, and instrument flight tests, and there is a 6 month waiting period for an instructor flight test, which is why everybody tries to take the refresher course.

Last I heard, Transport had even started delegating the instructor flight test, with the usual page-long list of caveats. End of an era.

P.S. "in line with ICAO" ... that's really funny. 4900 Yonge St doesn't even recognize ICAO's existence - it says that a foreign aircraft, operated by a pilot with a valid foreign pilot certificate and valid foreign medical, requires their certification to fly in Canada.

I have patiently tried to explain to 4900 Yonge St about Canada being a signatory to ICAO, but apparently they don't know or care, and the law doesn't apply to 4900 Yonge St.

I suppose I should send letters to ICAO and the foreign aircraft authority, informing them that Canada has resigned/reneged as an ICAO signatory, complete with dates/times/places/names.

[TC Guy]

Around here at least, Transport has really gotten out of the business of conducting recreational, private, commercial, multi, and instrument flight tests, and there is a 6 month waiting period for an instructor flight test, which is why everybody tries to take the refresher course.

Wow... that is a LONG time to wait for a flight test. For the record, something is messed up, because according to our "level of service" documents, we should be able to provide a flight test within 15-30 days.

reference:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... 2_att2.htm

If TC is not able to do what we have been mandated to do, we have a problem.

As far as the rec/ppl/cpl/etc flight tests, you are correct... they will in most cases be farmed out to PE's with the PE's being monitored forming part of this 5%.

Last I heard, Transport had even started delegating the instructor flight test, with the usual page-long list of caveats. End of an era.

You are correct. Interestingly enough, although this program has been in force since 2003, many regions still do NOT have a PE that is delagated to do Instructor renewal flight tests. The Initial and upgrade flight tests will still be done by TC Inspectors (for now, at least).

reference:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... pl0301.htm

P.S. "in line with ICAO" ... that's really funny. 4900 Yonge St doesn't even recognize ICAO's existence - it says that a foreign aircraft, operated by a pilot with a valid foreign pilot certificate and valid foreign medical, requires their certification to fly in Canada.

Partially correct... as far as I am aware, an aircraft registered in a contracting state can be flown in Canada by a pilot holding a medically valid and appropriate licence of that same state.

I can issue a Foreign Licence Validation Certificate valid for 90 days to any ICAO licence holder that will validate their licence for flight in Canada in a Canadian registered aircraft (many foreign pilots use this to get endorsements or ratings they can take home and have put on their licences).

I can also issue a Limited Term PPL valid for up to a year for recreational purposes only (cannot get endorsements or ratings), based on the very same medically valid foreign licence.

reference:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... l/fore.htm

They can also get a full PPL ("issued on the basis of..") provided they get a Canadian Medical, and write the PSTAR examaination *AND* meet all the PPL experience requirements.

soo... I would say we *DO* give some recognition of ICAO.

I have patiently tried to explain to 4900 Yonge St about Canada being a signatory to ICAO, but apparently they don't know or care, and the law doesn't apply to 4900 Yonge St.

I cannot comment on what was said or not said... all I can do is provide you with the information.

Hope this helps?


-Guy

[Luscombe]

I guess getting back to the question of whether someone could save money doing a private on their own aircraft or renting at an FTU, my vote would be a definite maybe.

I did my cpl on my own aircraft and it did save me quite a bit. Mind you, I already owned the aircraft before and it was almost completely paid for when I started. I kept it simple, a Luscombe 8A with a big honkin' 65 horse engine. It has no electrics (handheld radio, no transponder etc... ) and the inevitable "armstrong hand-raulic" starter. Can't really get any cheaper than that other than going to an ultralight or hang-glider. My insurance was (and still is) through COPA.

I was pretty fortunate on my purchase in that I was able to do a lot of shopping around, asking questions etc. This, although not a sure thing, minimized the possibility of getting stuck with a money-pit. I chose to go it alone rather than go into a partnership so this seemed to be the best option.

I had no problem finding a very capable and qualified instructor to do my cpl, and even had a respected and very senior DFTE do my flight test. When all was said and done, I possibly saved thousands.

The down side of doing it this way is that when I had the cpl in hand, I didn't have the heart to sell the airplane. I still have it and fly it regularily, so I have yet to regain my equity on the plane to offset the capital purchase; but I don't plan on doing that for some time yet, I still have way too much fun with the thing.

Hope it works for you