SKYWARD MEDIVA ALIVE AGAIN!
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
SKYWARD MEDIVA ALIVE AGAIN!
soi heard that in manitoba, old FB from skyward is starting up a medivac again! i thought that he was broke and could not his bills, and employees, and that transport canada did not like him. i looked on the internet , manitoba justice, and he[skyward] was in court again. regharding payment of wages, and money owed to creditors. hey man, PAY YOUR EMPLOYEES! i wonder who will/ would work for this guy? hope no one does! all you former skyward employees are worth more.
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Dust Devil
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um the former owner is not responsible for those bills. skyward is an entity of it's own responsible for it's own debts. That's why people incorporate. It gives the owner a certin amount of protection in the event the company goes bust. Sorry but it's the reality of the situation. I know lots of people are going to be in a hissy fit over it but if owners wen't givin this protection no one would have jobs out there.
Hmmmm 
Date:17 June 2006
Position:Capitains & F.O.'s
Company Name:2080061 Ontario Inc.
Contact Person:Richard Wilde (Chief Pilot)
Street Address:Box 295
City:Cochenour
State/Province:Ontario
Country:Canada
Email address: pilotopportunities@enercontrol.com
Send Resume By:Email
Aircraft Types:C441
Job Description:
Captains:
- ATPL
- 2000TT
- 500 PIC multi
- 100 Hours on type
- Valid Group 1 IFR
F.O.'s
- Valid Commercial
- 500 Hr TT
- Valid IFR
PPC on a C441 would be an asset.
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groundtoflightdeck
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Crackberry
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PLEASE HELP
PLEASE we as the former employees of Skyward 200+ ask that you as pilots don't work for this new outfit of FPB. We need to keep this guy out of the air.
Thanks in advance.
CB
By the way anyone know who this chief pilot mentionned in the add is?
Thanks in advance.
CB
By the way anyone know who this chief pilot mentionned in the add is?
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Dust Devil
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Re: PLEASE HELP
LOL this should be interestingCrackberry wrote:
By the way anyone know who this chief pilot mentionned in the add is?
Dust Devil, it sounds like you’ve forgotten why Skyward got shutdown. The specific reason is irrelevant but the fact remains that Skyward was shutdown by Transport Canada because they were breaking rules or even the law. No one can argue that. While I agree that incorporating should offer owners protection from company debts, the purpose of that is to protect the owners in the event the company goes under due to bad luck, poor market conditions, competition, etc...
“I know lots of people are going to be in a hissy fit over it but if owners wen't givin this protection no one would have jobs out there”
Incorporating does not protect owners/directors from personal liability if they were operating the company illegally. There are lots of legal precedents where the owners were running companies illegally and then held personally responsible both criminally and financially. Enron comes to mind as one recent example.
It’s a fact that Skyward was being operated in contravention of the CARS or they would never have been shutdown. The owners/directors/management made the decision to run the company illegally and I hold them personally responsible for the bankruptcy of the company and the debts they owe me and every other employee. Whether the courts agree that willingly breaking enough CARS to get your company shutdown is a criminal offence is beside the point, but that’s reason why a lot of ex-employees including myself hold FB personally responsible.
Everyone can understand why is it’s frustrating that he was able to structure Skyward in such a way that he still has enough assets to start up a new airline when it was his (possibly illegal) decisions that got Skyward shutdown in the first place.
I agree with Crackberry and ask every pilot out there not to work for him.
“I know lots of people are going to be in a hissy fit over it but if owners wen't givin this protection no one would have jobs out there”
Incorporating does not protect owners/directors from personal liability if they were operating the company illegally. There are lots of legal precedents where the owners were running companies illegally and then held personally responsible both criminally and financially. Enron comes to mind as one recent example.
It’s a fact that Skyward was being operated in contravention of the CARS or they would never have been shutdown. The owners/directors/management made the decision to run the company illegally and I hold them personally responsible for the bankruptcy of the company and the debts they owe me and every other employee. Whether the courts agree that willingly breaking enough CARS to get your company shutdown is a criminal offence is beside the point, but that’s reason why a lot of ex-employees including myself hold FB personally responsible.
Everyone can understand why is it’s frustrating that he was able to structure Skyward in such a way that he still has enough assets to start up a new airline when it was his (possibly illegal) decisions that got Skyward shutdown in the first place.
I agree with Crackberry and ask every pilot out there not to work for him.
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Anonymous1
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Give it a rest! How many payroll cheques bounced in the history of Skyward before all this? Have 20 years of success getting pilots to AC / WJ and so on then the first mistake and you hang the guy. Yeah, it sucks big time you didn't get paid. Same goes for C3 / Royal / Vista / JetsGo..... Welcome to aviation. Most airlines are 5 - 10 days away from bankruptcy if the revenues stop. If you don't like it, go work for the banks or oil companies. Or how about shutting your damn mouth for a second and starting your own company? Then you can listen to all these little son of a bitches on AvCanada whine about what you're doing wrong.
In the early days, FedEx was so close to the edge that Fred Smith, the CEO went to Vegas hopoing for a lucky break to make payroll. He got it. Yet you same guys here post about how great FedEx is. No one else sees the hypocrisy here?
Instead of being a bunch of parasites feeding off the hard work of all the owners who risk their money to further your career, maybe its time you showed some f**king appreciation and stop your never ending whining. Life sucks sometimes....there is a law out there and if you feel things are unfair, hire a lawyer and state your case. Or just shut the hell up!
In the early days, FedEx was so close to the edge that Fred Smith, the CEO went to Vegas hopoing for a lucky break to make payroll. He got it. Yet you same guys here post about how great FedEx is. No one else sees the hypocrisy here?
Instead of being a bunch of parasites feeding off the hard work of all the owners who risk their money to further your career, maybe its time you showed some f**king appreciation and stop your never ending whining. Life sucks sometimes....there is a law out there and if you feel things are unfair, hire a lawyer and state your case. Or just shut the hell up!
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Anonymous1
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I was wondering the same thing as anonymous, were they so god awful to work for that you all stayed? I don't get it, if they were breaking so many laws and such why didn't you report them? If you didn't bring these things up you're as guilty as the management for the shutdown. Its the job of the pilot in command to say no i am not flying under these conditions, if you do take the plane you're just as guilty for breaking the rules as the CEO or the CP of the company. btw....i haven't heard of any big payouts to ENRON employee's after that disaster.
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Dust Devil
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Anonymous1 wrote:Give it a rest! How many payroll cheques bounced in the history of Skyward before all this? Have 20 years of success getting pilots to AC / WJ and so on then the first mistake and you hang the guy. Yeah, it sucks big time you didn't get paid. Same goes for C3 / Royal / Vista / JetsGo..... Welcome to aviation. Most airlines are 5 - 10 days away from bankruptcy if the revenues stop. If you don't like it, go work for the banks or oil companies. Or how about shutting your damn mouth for a second and starting your own company? Then you can listen to all these little son of a bitches on AvCanada whine about what you're doing wrong.
In the early days, FedEx was so close to the edge that Fred Smith, the CEO went to Vegas hopoing for a lucky break to make payroll. He got it. Yet you same guys here post about how great FedEx is. No one else sees the hypocrisy here?
Instead of being a bunch of parasites feeding off the hard work of all the owners who risk their money to further your career, maybe its time you showed some f**king appreciation and stop your never ending whining. Life sucks sometimes....there is a law out there and if you feel things are unfair, hire a lawyer and state your case. Or just shut the hell up!
Anonymous1, Dust Devil, Beechy ....
Ok .. So the employee's are whiner's and should just suck it up and move on. Nice .. and you are the reason that aviation is a backstabbing industry, incase you needed someone to point that out.
Most of the employee's were unaware of the back-door dealings, such as uncertified parts, pen whipped inspections ... DO I NEED TO CONTINUE!
The money issue is only a piece of the damn problem .. but when someone gambles my life or the lives of others to save themselves a F*CKING DOLLAR! .. A GAWD DAMN PIECE OF PAPER! Thats the end of the f*cking line my friend. Im sure your feelings would be a lot different had your family been in one of those seats or your own even.
Most companies look at maintenance as an expense rather than an investment. This industry I believe is honest for the most part .. but when a bug such as FB crawls out from under the carpet and rears his ugly head .. I think they need to be squashed for the good of the industry.
The employee's deserved a hell of a lot better. If this company went out of buisness based on the illegal actions of the directors then they should be held personally respondsible. Think about it .. does it make sense? Sure they gamble there money .. but isn't your life, my life .. or the lives of the passengers worth more? How do you put a price on that?
I credit the employee's for making the company work as well as it did. Not the directors ......
So .... now I pose this question to you .... What do you think has changed? Do you think that FB has seen the devine light since Skyward and things are going to be better? Or do you think that the lies and deceit will continue? I'll go with the second choice ...
As to the comment about never missing payroll .... So what? ... Thats there obligation to the employee's ... Just like running a clean and safe company ... get the hint?
The law isn't suppose to protect the offender ....
Loc
Ok .. So the employee's are whiner's and should just suck it up and move on. Nice .. and you are the reason that aviation is a backstabbing industry, incase you needed someone to point that out.
Most of the employee's were unaware of the back-door dealings, such as uncertified parts, pen whipped inspections ... DO I NEED TO CONTINUE!
The money issue is only a piece of the damn problem .. but when someone gambles my life or the lives of others to save themselves a F*CKING DOLLAR! .. A GAWD DAMN PIECE OF PAPER! Thats the end of the f*cking line my friend. Im sure your feelings would be a lot different had your family been in one of those seats or your own even.
Most companies look at maintenance as an expense rather than an investment. This industry I believe is honest for the most part .. but when a bug such as FB crawls out from under the carpet and rears his ugly head .. I think they need to be squashed for the good of the industry.
The employee's deserved a hell of a lot better. If this company went out of buisness based on the illegal actions of the directors then they should be held personally respondsible. Think about it .. does it make sense? Sure they gamble there money .. but isn't your life, my life .. or the lives of the passengers worth more? How do you put a price on that?
I credit the employee's for making the company work as well as it did. Not the directors ......
So .... now I pose this question to you .... What do you think has changed? Do you think that FB has seen the devine light since Skyward and things are going to be better? Or do you think that the lies and deceit will continue? I'll go with the second choice ...
As to the comment about never missing payroll .... So what? ... Thats there obligation to the employee's ... Just like running a clean and safe company ... get the hint?
The law isn't suppose to protect the offender ....
Loc
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Dust Devil
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Dust Devil
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That's bullshit. Most guys show up lookin for a job at a 703 for the simple reason they want to build more time so they can move on to airlines. That is their plan long before an application even crosses a desk. It's a rare breed to find someone willing to stay behind a ho their whole career. There are a few however but they are few and far between. Hopefully AC & WJ keep the salaries low mabey then guys won't be in such a rush to get there.Dockjock wrote:The owners of air taxi companies are hardly responsible for pilots getting themselves the heck outta places like Skyward and on to AC/WJ. More like in spite of the circumstances, not because of them!Have 20 years of success getting pilots to AC / WJ and so on
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Anonymous1
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I was a line pilot. Now I'm the evil owner. Unlike some posters here, I can sympathize with both sides and want to make a few points. An employee gets paid first regardless of how much money a company makes every month. You smash an airplane up? The owner pays. You leave late and piss off the customer? The owner loses the contract. You quit shortly after a PPC? The owner loses. You mishandle the engines and blow a turbo? The owner pays. Rare is a pilot that admits his screwup and repays the owner for his error. Any pilot can just walk away from his screw-up and move on to another operator, leaving the owner to pick up the shatterred pieces of his company.
Most 703s are just used as a tool by an employee to further their own career. The employee's number one interest is themself. Contrast that with the owner who has to put absolutely everything ahead of their own life. If the phone rings in the middle of the night, guess who does the flight? When a pilot quits with short notice, who picks up the slack? Who's in the office until 10PM on a Sunday night when all the staff are enjoying the day off? A lot of you posters here assume all owners are in it for themself. Well, the truth is that on a per hour basis, the owner is usually the lowest paid of everyone. Most 703s go bankrupt eventually, leaving financial ruin for the owner. And if it wasn't for these evil owners who were willing to risk their capital, all of you would be unemployed. The outfits also have to be willing to hire all the unproven, low time pilots. If they succeed, them the pilot quits to move on. If the pilot was a bad choice, then they can sink the operator.
Out of all the choices in the world for a business, very few choose to venture into aviation companies. The risks are very high and the returns very low. Appreciate that its these 703s that give people their first opportunity in the industry and can get you to AC and really ask very little of you in return, yet are willing to bet everything on you not screwing up and bringing the airplane home in one piece.
In this situation, if you feel so unfairly treated, then why are you whining on Avcanada? You live in Canada where fair process of law is available to everyone. Hire a lawyer and make your case. Nothings worse than someone whining and whining yet unwilling to take a stand to resolve their problem. I think most of you here just like to spout off but aren't even willing to risk $10,000 to prove you're right.
And for Localizer.....are you some kind of idiot? Business is all about MONEY!! Get it? You are a tool to turn labour (EXPENSE) into PROFIT!!! That means you work and make the owner money. The lower the expenses, the greater the profit. This means the LESS you get paid and the LESS money spent on parts, the greater the PROFIT for the owner! This is called business. Think its unfair? Then become an owner or shut your hole!
I think some of you think business should be something other than about money. People go into business for one reason only. Fell free to go fly for Cubana if you don't care for this philosophy.
Most 703s are just used as a tool by an employee to further their own career. The employee's number one interest is themself. Contrast that with the owner who has to put absolutely everything ahead of their own life. If the phone rings in the middle of the night, guess who does the flight? When a pilot quits with short notice, who picks up the slack? Who's in the office until 10PM on a Sunday night when all the staff are enjoying the day off? A lot of you posters here assume all owners are in it for themself. Well, the truth is that on a per hour basis, the owner is usually the lowest paid of everyone. Most 703s go bankrupt eventually, leaving financial ruin for the owner. And if it wasn't for these evil owners who were willing to risk their capital, all of you would be unemployed. The outfits also have to be willing to hire all the unproven, low time pilots. If they succeed, them the pilot quits to move on. If the pilot was a bad choice, then they can sink the operator.
Out of all the choices in the world for a business, very few choose to venture into aviation companies. The risks are very high and the returns very low. Appreciate that its these 703s that give people their first opportunity in the industry and can get you to AC and really ask very little of you in return, yet are willing to bet everything on you not screwing up and bringing the airplane home in one piece.
In this situation, if you feel so unfairly treated, then why are you whining on Avcanada? You live in Canada where fair process of law is available to everyone. Hire a lawyer and make your case. Nothings worse than someone whining and whining yet unwilling to take a stand to resolve their problem. I think most of you here just like to spout off but aren't even willing to risk $10,000 to prove you're right.
And for Localizer.....are you some kind of idiot? Business is all about MONEY!! Get it? You are a tool to turn labour (EXPENSE) into PROFIT!!! That means you work and make the owner money. The lower the expenses, the greater the profit. This means the LESS you get paid and the LESS money spent on parts, the greater the PROFIT for the owner! This is called business. Think its unfair? Then become an owner or shut your hole!
I think some of you think business should be something other than about money. People go into business for one reason only. Fell free to go fly for Cubana if you don't care for this philosophy.
Ludacris,
Just for curiosity, can you name some precedent setting cases where an owner was held financially liable because he was breaking the rules? I can't think of any. Enron was a criminal case, not civil.
I believe this situation only occurs during tort cases (not breach of contract) if the plantiff can prove defence KNOWINLY misled (Firestone). That is really hard to prove.
Just for curiosity, can you name some precedent setting cases where an owner was held financially liable because he was breaking the rules? I can't think of any. Enron was a criminal case, not civil.
I believe this situation only occurs during tort cases (not breach of contract) if the plantiff can prove defence KNOWINLY misled (Firestone). That is really hard to prove.
Careful there Anonymous1... You were doing pretty good until this little tidbit at the end. Now, you are starting to sound suspiciously like an owner of a company modeling itself after this company...Anonymous1 wrote:Business is all about MONEY!! Get it? You are a tool to turn labour (EXPENSE) into PROFIT!!! That means you work and make the owner money. The lower the expenses, the greater the profit. This means the LESS you get paid and the LESS money spent on parts, the greater the PROFIT for the owner! This is called business. Think its unfair? Then become an owner or shut your hole!
Try not to slip too far over to the dark side. 
Perhaps safetywatch would have some thoughts on this as well?
Last edited by CD on Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Anonymous1
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CD, I said businesses exist to make money. Crashing airplanes lose money. Employees quitting lose money. Airplanes breaking lose money. Lawsuits lose money. Flying outdated buckets of crap also lose money. Airlines that make the most amount of money (Southwest / Jetblue) do not crash, fly old planes, have high turnover or retarded managers. But they still operate according to the same rules...make money. Oh, and Southwest does require a type rating with your application. The way I see it, companies like Sonic Blue don't really get it. Companies like North Caribou and Borek do get it. Borek pays as little as possible to attract the specific skill level of pilots they are seeking. They also spend as little on maintenance as possible but in the process have very reliable airplanes. They also make the owners a lot of money.
For seeking judgement against a company that is shut down for using unapproved parts, you would have to prove the directors knowingly falsified the records and or were neglligent in their duties. There's a fine line between what are approved parts and what isn't. I can buy factory new parts in a factory sealed package and be shut down for lacking the procer traceability. Yet its quite legal for me to go to a wrecking yard and pull crap off the scrap heap to install in my airplane, under the right circumstances. I think there's more to the story than you know...
For seeking judgement against a company that is shut down for using unapproved parts, you would have to prove the directors knowingly falsified the records and or were neglligent in their duties. There's a fine line between what are approved parts and what isn't. I can buy factory new parts in a factory sealed package and be shut down for lacking the procer traceability. Yet its quite legal for me to go to a wrecking yard and pull crap off the scrap heap to install in my airplane, under the right circumstances. I think there's more to the story than you know...
Anonymous1,
Do you believe that the owners of Skyward were left ... hard done by? Obviously not seeing as how a new operation is up and running. You mutter on about how a pilot will wreck a plane or quit on the owner and how the owner is up all night working away ... bullshit .. there is always two sides to the coin buddy. Owners have bonds in place to protect there investment, as for wrecking the plane .. shit I would say the owner in some cases is the resulting cause of some accidents, incidents. Besides im sure thats why you have insurance.
This thread isn't about every owner out there anyways .. this is specific to the SGK case only. They lied to there employee's, they lied to there passengers, and they were negligent ...
From a pilot aspect, most of them want to be repaid there bonds. They full-filled there end of the contract .. they never quit there jobs. There is a line in the contract that says if the pilots services are no longer required then the outstanding balance of the bond will be paid out in full. Well .. where are the cheques? According to that, the day I got my lay-off I should have recieved a cheque, and according to court documents the directors were still in charge of the company as of that day, so I say they are personally held respondsible for those outstanding bonds.
Personally the whole bond thing is bullshit .. a one way street as far as im concerned. Owners want to protect there investment and hold you to the bond until its not in there favour, then when shit doesn't go there way they keep the money regardless .. where is the employee's protection?
No sympathy here ...
Loc
P.S .. Name calling? .. I thought this was a mature conversation?
Do you believe that the owners of Skyward were left ... hard done by? Obviously not seeing as how a new operation is up and running. You mutter on about how a pilot will wreck a plane or quit on the owner and how the owner is up all night working away ... bullshit .. there is always two sides to the coin buddy. Owners have bonds in place to protect there investment, as for wrecking the plane .. shit I would say the owner in some cases is the resulting cause of some accidents, incidents. Besides im sure thats why you have insurance.
This thread isn't about every owner out there anyways .. this is specific to the SGK case only. They lied to there employee's, they lied to there passengers, and they were negligent ...
From a pilot aspect, most of them want to be repaid there bonds. They full-filled there end of the contract .. they never quit there jobs. There is a line in the contract that says if the pilots services are no longer required then the outstanding balance of the bond will be paid out in full. Well .. where are the cheques? According to that, the day I got my lay-off I should have recieved a cheque, and according to court documents the directors were still in charge of the company as of that day, so I say they are personally held respondsible for those outstanding bonds.
Personally the whole bond thing is bullshit .. a one way street as far as im concerned. Owners want to protect there investment and hold you to the bond until its not in there favour, then when shit doesn't go there way they keep the money regardless .. where is the employee's protection?
No sympathy here ...
Loc
P.S .. Name calling? .. I thought this was a mature conversation?
Businesses exist to make money, I'll agree to that.
Unfortunately many air taxis (and airlines for that matter) exist to satisfy the gigantic egos of their narcissistic owners- it is a business that tends to attract these types.
Warning signs:
a) business is located in the middle of nowhere, but does not seem to be there due to any specific niche market ie. a lodge, or a mine, or a fly-in native community etc. It's just a guy, an airplane, and a small town. Kinda like those classified "man with truck" ads.
b) scatter-shot fleet planning. Just buy cheap airplanes, not ones suited to any particular business opportunity.
c) continued operation (and whining, and blame placing on others) in the face of extreme economic adversity and non-profitability. If the business is not making money, but the owner insists on running it "so that pilots have jobs", it ain't a business, its a hobby.
I definitely feel for the small business operator that gets pinched by increased costs, or their market disappears (ie. the mine they were servicing closes down) and what-have-you. My family has run businesses and I know the 24/7 nature of being the owner. But if one went into operation KNOWING they were overly reliant on one market segment, or even one customer, the pure business facts of it are that it wasn't a sound plan in the first place.
The odds are stacked against one- or two-airplane companies from the outset. But I sometimes wonder, why try in the first place, given the extremely tiny chance of actually succeeding? This industry has high barriers to entry, ridiculous regulation, high ongoing costs, is highly cyclical (makes a bit of money in great years and loses a sh!tload the rest of the time), and requires workers with a very specific skill set. Put a company in that situation in a remote location, without a sound plan, and base it all on keeping one or two big customers, and its a recipe for disaster!
My point is, if one is to make the argument that they are solely in business to make money, the natural question to ask is, then why the hell are you running an airline?
Unfortunately many air taxis (and airlines for that matter) exist to satisfy the gigantic egos of their narcissistic owners- it is a business that tends to attract these types.
Warning signs:
a) business is located in the middle of nowhere, but does not seem to be there due to any specific niche market ie. a lodge, or a mine, or a fly-in native community etc. It's just a guy, an airplane, and a small town. Kinda like those classified "man with truck" ads.
b) scatter-shot fleet planning. Just buy cheap airplanes, not ones suited to any particular business opportunity.
c) continued operation (and whining, and blame placing on others) in the face of extreme economic adversity and non-profitability. If the business is not making money, but the owner insists on running it "so that pilots have jobs", it ain't a business, its a hobby.
I definitely feel for the small business operator that gets pinched by increased costs, or their market disappears (ie. the mine they were servicing closes down) and what-have-you. My family has run businesses and I know the 24/7 nature of being the owner. But if one went into operation KNOWING they were overly reliant on one market segment, or even one customer, the pure business facts of it are that it wasn't a sound plan in the first place.
The odds are stacked against one- or two-airplane companies from the outset. But I sometimes wonder, why try in the first place, given the extremely tiny chance of actually succeeding? This industry has high barriers to entry, ridiculous regulation, high ongoing costs, is highly cyclical (makes a bit of money in great years and loses a sh!tload the rest of the time), and requires workers with a very specific skill set. Put a company in that situation in a remote location, without a sound plan, and base it all on keeping one or two big customers, and its a recipe for disaster!
My point is, if one is to make the argument that they are solely in business to make money, the natural question to ask is, then why the hell are you running an airline?
