x/c question

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:13 pm

Hey,

Too tired to explain the whole story but for the CPL: the 300nm trip...can it be 300nm from any airport, or does it have to be from your home airport? Example were if I were to fly to an airport other than home and start a 300nm leg from there (with 2 stops on that leg)...that count? Thanks

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:17 pm

Any airport will do, the only thing I'd double check is the "in canada part." Not sure if you could fly wj to florida for 98 and take a 172 from there north bound for 50/hr...

So yes, any airport is good enough, no such thing as a "home" airport...

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:32 pm

Take a chart, chop off a peace of string that is 300nm long, draw a string circle from your starting airport, you must land outside the circle, regardless of where you start or where you end. Of course you need the two stops.

This can be done in the US as you are licensed private pilot, and you can exercise the right to fly in the US. If you could do it in an N registered aircraft is another matter.

I had two friends, one flew one way to Vegas the other flew home and that was both of there 300nm cross countries, so they can be done in the US no problem.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:54 pm

Im being told by the school, because its not the airport I fly from its not allowed. My plan is to back track from the flight school airport...land at a airport 60nm south, and from this airport its 310nm to my destination. My reasoning is because I cant take alot of time of work, coming home I want to take my flight test at YEE (stay the night with family...then do it in the morning...and head back)

Incase your wondering its : fly from YZR to YPT...START the 300nm leg from YPT to YYB (with 2 stops along the way) YPT to YYB is 310nm. On my way back spend the night in YEE at my Grandparents and take the flight test with an examinar at the school there in the morning. Then head back to YZR. Im ready for the test, I need to get this trip done, as quick as possible to limit the days off I take from work. that being said...does the YPT-YYB leg count as the 300nm trip? Even though Im back tracking to YPT? TC Guy hehe any comments?! And thank you guys for your comments. Hopefully I can do this.

groundtoflightdeck · Post by **groundtoflightdeck** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:03 pm

Its ok to start at another airport, in Abbotsford we always went to Chilliwack before heading south. However, I think schools have to get their cross country routes approved as a part of their OC. For sure a PPL has to follow a route approved by TC, FTU and the underwriter, but maybe just by the FTU for CPL x/c.

imfsub12 · Post by **imfsub12** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:35 pm

why would you need to have your x/c route approved? when i was out west i was going to fly on floats to the coast and go fishing. it was going to be 300 nm away thats all that matters. was at TC for some biz and all they said they do is take the Garmin gps demo that you can d/l and play with, they enter your start and end destination and get the distance..

but for my x/c i went from cyav-Diverted all over the place as wx was bad and finally made it to Minneapolis

groundtoflightdeck · Post by **groundtoflightdeck** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:04 pm

I guess you don't for the CPL, but the PPL routes have to be approved by TC in the OC. The airports they are going to have to be decent size and surface, there needs to be suitable airports en route to use for diversions. I think they have a whole mess of criteria.

C-GPFG · Post by **C-GPFG** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:53 pm

Pete wrote:Im being told by the school, because its not the airport I fly from its not allowed....

Hmm...mine was from KMYR to KBUF. Was training from CYKZ. The authorized person didn't care.

I've never seen anything in writing that says anything relating to the school's base.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:01 pm

So because I may have a conflict with the authorized person...it wont be accepted...even though the leg is more than 300nm? If thats true...thats pretty silly

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:29 pm

Your Authorized Person (I used to be one) should try reading the CARs for a change. There really is no excuse for this, these days, with computers and the internet, but I suppose future Transport employees have to come from someplace ....

click on:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#421_30

CAR 412.30(4)(b)(ii)(A) applies:

a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure

YOU set the point (not an airport, just overflight counts) of departure. As long as you fly to a point (not necessarily an airport that you land at, overflight counts) of not less than 300nm from the point of departure, and you have a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of the departure point, you qualify.

If the Authorized Person cannot read, or is unwilling to read the regulations, just get another one to sign off your licence. Every FTU has one, generally speaking.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:45 pm

Thank you Hedley,

So you would agree that there is in no way a problem with my trip and shouldnt really be questioned? I couldnt believe it myself...I to have read what you posted in the CARS.

I cant see TC having problems with it...the leg is over 300nm period. And like you said...I know there are tonnes of others who would sign that off.

I like to make things difficult hehe. But Im ready for my ride/need the trip done, I know the DFTE....family right by the airport...why not kill 2 birds with one stone and get it all done. Speaking of, I know hed sign it off! Thanks for all your help Guys....Im doing this trip!

Busted · Post by **Busted** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:45 pm

just my 2cents,
but
when i was finishing my commercial, I was doing it in BC. For my 300 though, I rented a plane in Ontario and flew down to Baltimore.
I never had any problems with getting my book stamped or approved when I got back to BC.

Louis · Post by **Louis** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:25 pm

Hedley wrote:YOU set the point (not an airport, just overflight counts) of departure. As long as you fly to a point (not necessarily an airport that you land at, overflight counts) of not less than 300nm from the point of departure, and you have a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of the departure point, you qualify.

I understand an overflight would fill the requirement set out in the CARs, but I'd say its way easier/"safer" to use airports and get stamps along the way. (Easier to get than ATC radar logs or a video camera that can film the whole trip in a single take...)

I flew the return leg for the 300 NM (my school usually had us do it in pairs) from Kingston, to St-Hubert, La Tuque and finally St-Honoré. Neither authorized agent nor Transport had a problem with it "not starting out from my «home» airport". Neither should you.

Goodbye, and good luck.

Louis

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:29 pm

Hedley wrote: CAR 412.30(4)(b)(ii)(A) applies:

a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure
YOU set the point (not an airport, just overflight counts) of departure. As long as you fly to a point (not necessarily an airport that you land at, overflight counts) of not less than 300nm from the point of departure, and you have a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of the departure point, you qualify.

This is absolutely correct.

One thing I am going to also add is that is must be properly logged in the CPL PTR and Pilot's Logbook. If you don't log it properly, then as far as TC is concerned, it wasn't done.

-Guy

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:49 am

I'd say its way easier/"safer" to use airports

Absolutely! But depending upon your geography, it may be much easier and much more economical to overfly a "point".

How to document this? Good question. How about a digital camera with a date/time readout? Take a picture of the "point" out the window of the aircraft and staple it in your logbook.

Another way might be to bring a GPS (who doesn't have a handheld GPS?) and most of them have a tracking feature which will draw a line where you flew. Show that to the Authorized Person, too.

Airports/logbook stamps are a lot easier, I will admit, though.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:37 pm

Thanks for everyones input,

Talked to the CFI again today...and his reasoning was that he has had alot of problems with TC and students doing their 300nm, backtracking quite a ways back (something like 150nm) starting from there and flying 300nm). So in reality theyre going 150 each way.

He said TC had a problem with it because the students are still generally in a comfortable area and not really learning anything by getting out there. I understand that...but a rule is a rule in my opinion and I dont see how Im breaking it.

Im only going 60nm south before heading north...for the purpose of a flight test too. I dont want to go against what he says at all....but that sure would have been nice to stop over night and take the flight test the next morning. If I have to 300 from airport I will but meh...this blows....any opinions of what you would do in my situation? It sounds perfectly fine to do it...TC Guy...other than logging it correctly...no real problems with doing it? And yes...I would get my log booked stamped the whole way. I really wanted to do this!!

Any suggestions?

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:25 pm

Pete wrote:Thanks for everyones input,

Talked to the CFI again today...and his reasoning was that he has had alot of problems with TC and students doing their 300nm, backtracking quite a ways back (something like 150nm) starting from there and flying 300nm). So in reality theyre going 150 each way.

*He said TC had a problem with it because the students are still generally in a comfortable area and not really learning anything by getting out there. I understand that...

*Lol, if tc cared about students "learning" the sylabus would have been changed years ago, funny how cat got his PPL in 5 hours, so obviously something had been done more proficiently then today..
Secondly, we hit, auto-direct on the gps to pt b anyways, no one is learning anything anymore... Cat has proven that time after time....

Tell your cfi to go blow chunks, start from pt A. go to pt B,C, and destination and done...

More like it's the school trying to make an extra X.X hours off you.... I know one school that has to go to city if you're heading north to get to the airport that's 305 miles away or 297 from their "home" and if you don't whine and complain about it they'll send you to the past 300 mark, oh, and the last one is an extra 60 miles(+/-) and wow, you're charged an extra 1.X for it....

Yeah, the going to Vegas trips are good, but the 300 is a requirement for TC, you still have 100 hours of PIC time to fill and diddle around... Do the 300 the cheapest way possible, and do the "cooler" trips after... imho...

OH, and secondly, TC doesn't have a problem when 1 student goes 1 way and another goes the other way, what does student #2 learn??? They're just back tracking the trip???

So 150 1 way and 150 the other, is bad? But 2 kids, 1 planning one way and then the other just recipricating going back will learn so much more??

AntiNakedMan · Post by **AntiNakedMan** » Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:38 pm

Funny how every school has different rules.......... 99% of the time it's purely the schools rules which are above and beyond what the CARS mandate.

Because I had my own private plane, I had lots of x-country time (when I did my CPL flight test I think 50-60% of my total time was x-c), but it was usually all 400mi with only one t/o and landing.

To get around this, I simply used legs I had done on more than one day.... one day was YVC-Sandy Bay-YGX, then next day was YGX-York Factory-YGX, then YGX-York Landing-YGX about 2 days later. All in all I think it was like 800 mi over 4 days or something, but it still worked. The regulator can be flexible sometimes.

Anti

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:28 am

More like it's the school trying to make an extra X.X hours off you

I agree...he mentioned Cornwall...357nm...uh uh....Ill go to Ottawa if I dont do my intended trip...305-310nm (depending on which local airport). The quicker the better, the cheaper the better.

TC Guy · Post by **TC Guy** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 1:13 pm

Pete wrote:TC Guy...other than logging it correctly...no real problems with doing it? And yes...I would get my log booked stamped the whole way. I really wanted to do this!! Any suggestions?

Absolutely I have a suggestion: Phone a licencing inspector/officer in your region-- you know, the people that will actually process your licence.

Ask them what they would accept, make sure you get their name, and thank them. Done deal.

Make a note of who you talked to, of course.

Good luck!

-Guy

quicksilver · Post by **quicksilver** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 4:17 pm

I did my 300nm in the US, no problems at all. You should be able to do whatever you want because its your money. Someone telling you otherwise is just trying to take your money. When I did mine in the US it was a fluke, I just happened to have a leg that was greater than 300nm with three stops... Worked out nice.

quick

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:12 pm

So if I decide to START my x/c from another airport (YPT) how do I tell the cfi to stick it after Ive been give explanations and shpeels?

quicksilver · Post by **quicksilver** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:08 am

call transport and ask, they'll tell you the same thing. Then tell your CFI what transport told you.

quick

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:20 am

how do I tell the cfi to stick it

Sigh. Try really hard not to. Being a CFI can be a really crappy job, when you've got difficult people at Transport to deal with.

What some (low quality, imho) people at Transport do, is make up their own rules, often to fill in the grey areas in the CARs (admittedly this isn't one of them).

The CFI has to do whatever the donkeys at Transport tell him to do, right or wrong. If he challenges them, even (especially) if he's right, he will earn a reputation as a "troublemaker" and then he is in for a world of regulatory hurt.

The lower the quality of person, the more badly they react when they feel their authority is challenged - especially when they're wrong!

From experience, I can tell you that when Transport does something wrong, there is precious little you can do about it. The Tribunal is powerless and really a waste of time and money. Kangaroo court is how more than one pilot I know, describes them.

Honestly, you probably get further with a letter to your MP and to the Minister of Transport, but I must warn you that Transport will hate you forever if you go that route - you've burned all your bridges.

Given all the above, most people in the private sector, when they see Transport doing something wrong, just say, "Yes, Sir!" and try to get as far away from the problem, as fast as they can.

Sadly, other employees of Transport will almost always behave in the same manner. They don't want to burn their bridges, or get a reputation as a troublemaker - they just want to do their shift and go home and collect their pension.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:24 pm

Called TC.

A nice lady left a message saying (like most of you) that I can start my trip wherever I want as long as its 300nm one way with 3 stops other than POD. She stressed like TC Guy to document it properly in the PTR or they wont accept it (make sure all stops are single entires etc. and indicate its for the cpl x/c). Very nice lady. Thanks for everyones help!