SKYWARD MEDIVA ALIVE AGAIN!

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:15 pm

Localizer...sorry bout the name calling. But I need detailed answers from you on these questions...

1) Before signing your bond, what amount of due diligence did you undertake to ensure the company was likely to exist for the term of your bond?

2) Why did you choose to work at Skyward, knowing a bond was in place when there are many, many employers that fly excellent equipment and require no bond?

3) Why did you not request your bond be held in escrow if there was any doubt on your part about the final payout?

4) Why do you think businesses exist in an environment of zero risk? If you ask me, aviation is one of the riskiest places you could ever invest. Yet you WILLINGLY paid your bond knowing one single accident could spell the end of Skyward and your bond. What did you do to mitigate this risk? Anything?

5) Many, many pilots have lost far more than your little bond. Delta pilots are about to lose their pensions, and maybe even their careers. Pilots lose their medicals everyday yet never once thought about improving themselves in their spare time on layovers; they just sit the hotel bar. What makes your situation so compelling that it is more important than any other loss?

6) Given the opportunity to sign another bond on a shiny jet at some operator, would you do anything different this time around?

7) Do you really have anyone other than yourself to blame for your loss after answering the truth to these questions?

The way I see it, you wanted to build your hours on someone else's hard work and investment. For several reasons, the owner lost his business and you lost your job. You signed this bond with an element of risk yet when the time came to lose, you ran away crying. You remind me of those US army guys in Toronto that quite willingly took the free education and pay, yet when the real war came they ran away to Canada.

NO ONE HAS EVER HELD A GUN TO A PILOT'S HEAD TO MAKE HIM SIGN A TRAINING BOND! MANY COMPANIES DO NOT HAVE BONDS. WORK FOR THEM IF YOU DON'T WANT A BOND. STOP YOUR WHINING!!!!!!!!!

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:24 pm

For DockJock..... Most pilots base their entire career on holding onto their medical. The pay is generally crap and the hours long. If you finally make it to the airlines after 10 moves and never having a girlfriend longer than a year, just fail one or two sim rides when you finally make it and you're history. Which gives the obvious question....who is the bigger retard? The operator who will likely go bankrupt in the small town with their one or two customers, mismatched fleet and giant ego? Or the pilot that poured $50K into training so they could work for one of these bullshit outfits on the very slim chance of ever making it to an airline? You realize 80% of AC pilots are on at least their second wife? And the median age of death for AC pilots is only 7 years after retirement? Not to mention high alcoholic rates? (7 or more drinks a week). So why become a pilot at all? It makes about as much sense as starting a company....

2024 · Post by **2024** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:29 pm

can we all agree on one thing.... DO NOT WORK FOR THIS GUY! let's keep him out of the air. he will/has not changed. for a guy like this, it IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. there are much better outfits to work with.

Go Guns · Post by **Go Guns** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:32 pm

Instead of being a bunch of parasites feeding off the hard work of all the owners who risk their money to further your career, maybe its time you showed some f**king appreciation and stop your never ending whining. Life sucks sometimes....there is a law out there and if you feel things are unfair, hire a lawyer and state your case. Or just shut the hell up!

So, are we parasites feeding off the owners and their finacial risk? or are we stupidly risking our own finances to get ahead in or careers?

It is apparent to me, and most likely everyone involved with Skyward while I was there, that you have no idea what you are talking about.

As far as who was getting the better end of the deal with the employment situation at Skyward... well, lets to a look.

Skyward got - an employee who stayed for, if I had to guess, somewhere around three years, and, in an area where good employees are hard to find, showed up everyday, on time, and busted their hump for a little over minimum wage on the ground. Then, when flying time came, took a pay cut to work longer days and more of them. The entire time they're completely loyal to Skyward, doing their best to make the company money.

The Employee got - a way to build time to get to further their career. Maybe a PPC, but they're likely paying for it now, so instead of a PPC, maybe we best call it a lesson.

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:38 pm

So out of all the employers in Canada, you chose one who paid a little above minimum wage, make you work the ramp the gave you a paycut and put a training bond on you? Then like a slave you extended your loyalty knowing none would be returned? And you expect that level of judgement to take you how far in your career? Jesus man, give your head a shake!! Maybe the lesson here is put a little bit more thought into where you work next time instead of playing the classic abused single mother role....

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:51 pm

Where to begin ....

1) Before signing your bond, what amount of due diligence did you undertake to ensure the company was likely to exist for the term of your bond?

As you boldly stated before Skyward had been in operation for 20 years. It was surrounded by reserves, mines, hydro operations. Plenty of business for all operators in the area. The company was expanding, new aircraft, new paint .. etc .. Why wouldn't I have believed the company was in great shape?!

2) Why did you choose to work at Skyward, knowing a bond was in place when there are many, many employers that fly excellent equipment and require no bond?

I like pretty much all of the pilots at Skyward started from the ground up. I grew with the company if you will, and had seniority with them. The equipment as far as I or any other pilot there knew was in good shape. (or so we believed)

3) Why did you not request your bond be held in escrow if there was any doubt on your part about the final payout?

As mentioned before the company was growing and winning contracts with others like MB Hydro. There was no forseeing the company going bankrupt due to lack of operational control. From the CP and OPS manager position there was no lack of control by the way. The bond being held in escrow wasn't an option that we had, and like all other pilots after Sept. 11th ... we needed to keep the jobs we had because there was nothing else out there.

4) Why do you think businesses exist in an environment of zero risk? If you ask me, aviation is one of the riskiest places you could ever invest. Yet you WILLINGLY paid your bond knowing one single accident could spell the end of Skyward and your bond. What did you do to mitigate this risk? Anything?

I don't believe that .. especially in aviation. But I don't believe that the employees are the ones to he held respondsible when the walls come crashing down. When business is great the owner stands on the top of the mountain saying "LOOK WHAT I BUILT!" .. Then when it all falls he's running out the back door leaving the employees standing there to clean up the mess!

I willingly paid a bond so that "IF" and only "IF" I decided to leave the company, before the company could make good off there investment in me, they wouldn't be held respondsible for "MY" decision .. In this case I had no say in what happened. Also according to there own contract I was to get my money back from them if this ever happened ... hint hint ...

5) Many, many pilots have lost far more than your little bond. Delta pilots are about to lose their pensions, and maybe even their careers. Pilots lose their medicals everyday yet never once thought about improving themselves in their spare time on layovers; they just sit the hotel bar. What makes your situation so compelling that it is more important than any other loss?

Well first off if a pilot wants to sit in a bar on his off time or on a layover that is his gawd damn decision .. If he wanted to improve himself thats up to him .. not you nor I!

As for the Delta pilots im sorry that they may have to deal with that. Its wrong .. just like this is wrong. But fortunitly for me I live in Canada were the laws protect my pension from potential people like you.

The truth is my "little loss" as you put it is just one more nail in the box for all of us as a whole. This goes beyond just SGK pilots, all pilots should be pissed off and angry about this because it could be them one day fighting for what is rightfully their's.

6) Given the opportunity to sign another bond on a shiny jet at some operator, would you do anything different this time around?

Yes .. Not sign a bond .. One of the realities of business is training. If you can't afford to train people then don't go into business. But on the flip side I do believe if the company is willing to invest in you then you should invest in them. A contract that doesn't require an exchange of money would be the way to go. That way if the company does go bankrupt then the pilots bond will not be considered an asset of the said company. But if you leave the company before the finish of the contract then you should be held respondsible. Had I resigned from SGK while I had a bond then I would not be pissed off, because I knew the contract and would have honoured it. But in the reverse .. the contract is NOT being honoured from the companies end.

7) Do you really have anyone other than yourself to blame for your loss after answering the truth to these questions?

Yes .. I think I've made that perfectly clear in all previous questions. Do you change your position now?

I don't understand why you think an employee should have to risk everything just like the owner? We are just there to work, not to gamble our life savings on YOUR DREAM .. We have our own dreams to accomplish in life, and shouldn't have to risk them just to go to work everyday. Employee's DO NOT ride the back of there owners ... its actually the other way around ... Owners ride the backs of employee's and reap the benefits of what there employee's accomplish.

Loc

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:10 pm

Is the pastor gonna be working too? "Bless this 441..."

Don't work for FB! You'll get f$cked in the end!!!!

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:20 pm

Localizer...I read your answers and certainly don't disagree with you except on one issue..holding your bond in escrow. No matter how well a company is doing, a single lawsuit can be the end. Just look at Cessna. If an employer is unwilling to place your bond in escrow, there has to be a reason. Its so straighforward that it should be a non-issue. Why the pilots never pushed for that, I don't know.

You should be very cautious when a company is doing very well year after year. Usually this means higher growth and if the management controls have not kept pace with the growth, disaster is going to occur. Things can unravel super quick when new planes are coming, new staff are added and bases are expanding, yet the original management hasn't upgraded. It takes a completely different set of skills to run a larger company than a small outfit. What were tiny cracks at a small company will become magnified very quickly at a larger operation. As an airline expands quickly, it becomes more leveraged and needs more and more revenues to just stay in business and pay the interest in the debt. A disaster like September 11 doesn't affect smaller airlines as much because they can go 3 - 4 months with revenues lower than forecast. A company like C3 will be out in a matter of days.

I don't think anyone was out to deceive you and looking back, many many pilots went on to great careers at Cathay, Emirates, AC and so on after putting their time in at Skyward.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:56 pm

There is never a way to know the future and for you to say that we should have seen it coming is just ridiculous. Nobody can ever see something like that coming except for the people in the driver seat.

I totally believe that this whole event was orchestrated right after they realized that they had trouble ahead. I say that because there was a lot of money and assets being shifted as soon as the OC was pulled off the wall. Hangars all of a sudden where sold and planes being flown south .. etc ..

Storm Aviation came into town to get SGK back on track, and they have a great track record of doing so, and they are even left shaking there heads wondering what happened. So don't gimmie bull about forseeing the unevitable.

What about you? .. Do you bond your Navajo drivers?

Loc

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:03 pm

For DockJock..... Most pilots base their entire career on holding onto their medical. The pay is generally crap and the hours long. If you finally make it to the airlines after 10 moves and never having a girlfriend longer than a year, just fail one or two sim rides when you finally make it and you're history. Which gives the obvious question....who is the bigger retard? The operator who will likely go bankrupt in the small town with their one or two customers, mismatched fleet and giant ego? Or the pilot that poured $50K into training so they could work for one of these bullshit outfits on the very slim chance of ever making it to an airline? You realize 80% of AC pilots are on at least their second wife? And the median age of death for AC pilots is only 7 years after retirement? Not to mention high alcoholic rates? (7 or more drinks a week). So why become a pilot at all? It makes about as much sense as starting a company....

After reading this I ask you .... Who is riding the back of who here? ....

Loc

BusDriver · Post by **BusDriver** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 5:21 pm

Anonymous1.......sure seems like you have a lot of time to make posts on AVCAN! I always believed you were working late at night?

And for those concerned.... I won't be flying a C441 anytime soon.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:03 pm

Localizer wrote:
What about you? .. Do you bond your Navajo drivers?

Loc

I realize this question isn't for me but no I don't have bonds. That doesn't mean I never would though

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:27 pm

No bonds here because I want to be able to select from as wide a field as possible and not exclude those that lack sufficient savings or ability to get a loan. Its a competitive market for quality pilots so why would someone limit their selection to only those willing to sign? Many pilots won't sign or fork money over after the Jetsgo crap so I just depend on their word to stay. So far no problems.

snag · Post by **snag** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:40 pm

Hey, if pastor Dan is there, and he'll give me a chocolate bar on my brithday, I'm so in....Do management postitions still require experience in snake charming and exorcisms?

On another note on bonds, why not make like many companies do and not ask for the money up front. Just sign an agreement to pay if you choose to leave before the contract. Same effect without destroying a cash strapped pilots credit rating, and without the worry of outstanding cash if the company goes under.

Mike Falk · Post by **Mike Falk** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:50 pm

Fluckmachine wrote:Anonymous1.......sure seems like you have a lot of time to make posts on AVCAN! I always believed you were working late at night?

I'm glad that I am not the only one that noticed this, guess the phone rang to go flying, or meeting his sweet thai babe. lol had to

On a side not, anony. Borek drivers aren't paid crap and there planes are welled maintained, hence why guys stay there for there careers. Just pointing that out.

FLOATER · Post by **FLOATER** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:20 am

As independent fuel dealer in Northeren Manitoba I would not sell fuel to this asshole outfit if he happens to get a trip into my area.Cash or otherwise.Take their advise......stay far away......

BusDriver · Post by **BusDriver** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:18 am

Ano1, Do your pilot's read your post's??? Cause it sure seems like you think pilots are worthless pieces of shit. Just my opinion, as current and prospective employee's may start to develop certain thoughts about you. It may be a smart idea to hold back sometimes and just bite your tongue!

T/A for life · Post by **T/A for life** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:27 am

Anonymous1:

Good job sticking up for FB - Dill Weed!!!

On second thought maybe FB needs all the help he can get !

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:01 am

I don't think he's sticking up for FB. I think he's sticking up for owners which all to often get trashed on this forum. When talk of a CP/Ops manager forum was going to be added a bunch of guys on here wined and complained that owners would post names of pilots in order to black list certin guys. now you guys come on here and do the very same thing to the owners. I had this happen to me about a year ago when someone asked about the company I own. some douche told them to stay far far away. Untill my pilots Out of Control and Broompusher spoke up and defended me. At which point they we're labeled as brown nosers. Anyone who knows me and the way things work here know that I did most of the ass kissin with these guys. It was me that bought the drinks at the bar and bought lunches and suppers. When customers wanted duty times broken it was me that backed my guys when they said no way. I think it's a load of bullshit when people figure they can trash the companies that treat the employees bad but we're not allowed to name the employees that treat the owners bad!

Longtimer · Post by **Longtimer** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:07 am

The only aircraft registered to the Ontario numbered compay (at present) is C-FSKG. According to Transport Canada the former owner was Skyward Aviation Ltd

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:29 am

Anonymous1 wrote:No bonds here because I want to be able to select from as wide a field as possible and not exclude those that lack sufficient savings or ability to get a loan.

Or is it the fact that no one in this market is going to pay for a pa31 bond. Heck at our company were having a hard enough time getting quality guys to come on a promisary note.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:51 pm

I think it's a load of bullshit when people figure they can trash the companies that treat the employees bad but we're not allowed to name the employees that treat the owners bad!

Dust Devil ...

Don't give us all this bullshit about not being able to black list a shit disturber. You can black list a pilot sometimes by just firing the guy, or when a reference calls, if he's dumb enough to use you as one.

The reality is this is a pilots forum and this is how pilots get there info out to the rest of the industry. If you treat your guys like shit then people are going to find out in a hurry who you are. If you treat your guys like human beings then you'll never have to worry about it. Since you're on the defensive maybe you should look in the mirror and ask yourself if you really do treat your guys well, or just think you do.

It takes more then just buying them a beer .. but its a good start!

Loc

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:40 pm

Anonymous1 wrote:I was a line pilot. Now I'm the evil owner. Unlike some posters here, I can sympathize with both sides and want to make a few points. An employee gets paid first regardless of how much money a company makes every month. You smash an airplane up? The owner pays. You leave late and piss off the customer? The owner loses the contract. You quit shortly after a PPC? The owner loses. You mishandle the engines and blow a turbo? The owner pays. Rare is a pilot that admits his screwup and repays the owner for his error. Any pilot can just walk away from his screw-up and move on to another operator, leaving the owner to pick up the shatterred pieces of his company.

Most 703s are just used as a tool by an employee to further their own career. The employee's number one interest is themself. Contrast that with the owner who has to put absolutely everything ahead of their own life. If the phone rings in the middle of the night, guess who does the flight? When a pilot quits with short notice, who picks up the slack? Who's in the office until 10PM on a Sunday night when all the staff are enjoying the day off? A lot of you posters here assume all owners are in it for themself. Well, the truth is that on a per hour basis, the owner is usually the lowest paid of everyone. Most 703s go bankrupt eventually, leaving financial ruin for the owner. And if it wasn't for these evil owners who were willing to risk their capital, all of you would be unemployed. The outfits also have to be willing to hire all the unproven, low time pilots. If they succeed, them the pilot quits to move on. If the pilot was a bad choice, then they can sink the operator.

Out of all the choices in the world for a business, very few choose to venture into aviation companies. The risks are very high and the returns very low. Appreciate that its these 703s that give people their first opportunity in the industry and can get you to AC and really ask very little of you in return, yet are willing to bet everything on you not screwing up and bringing the airplane home in one piece.

In this situation, if you feel so unfairly treated, then why are you whining on Avcanada? You live in Canada where fair process of law is available to everyone. Hire a lawyer and make your case. Nothings worse than someone whining and whining yet unwilling to take a stand to resolve their problem. I think most of you here just like to spout off but aren't even willing to risk $10,000 to prove you're right.

And for Localizer.....are you some kind of idiot? Business is all about MONEY!! Get it? You are a tool to turn labour (EXPENSE) into PROFIT!!! That means you work and make the owner money. The lower the expenses, the greater the profit. This means the LESS you get paid and the LESS money spent on parts, the greater the PROFIT for the owner! This is called business. Think its unfair? Then become an owner or shut your hole!
I think some of you think business should be something other than about money. People go into business for one reason only. Fell free to go fly for Cubana if you don't care for this philosophy.

This has to be one of the more logically-challenged, contradictory posts I've read in a long time.

First of all...an employee DOES NOT necessarily"get paid first regardless of how much money a company makes every month". This may happen for a short while, but only until the company is able to file their bankruptcy papers. Very few companies ever take a hit to keep employees employed...afer all, their only reason is to "make money". And generally, the only reason they keep operating at a loss is because they're essentially "doubling down"...one outfit I worked for operated for their last few months with cash from loan sharks in the hope that things would improve (it didn't). I was never under any illusions they were doing so to try and keep us poor employees working lol...here's hoping the directors lose their houses - they deserve to for managing the company into the ground!

You mention how the company pays when an employee screws up. Well no shit Sherlock! That's why you're the owner - you shoulder the responsibility for hiring capable employees, you shoulder the risk of employees making mistakes, and in return you stand to gain the reward of PROFIT when it's made as a result of your employees doing a GOOD job! Who's the whiner here? If you don't like it, then stay an employee and limit your exposure! This does not mean that an employee doesn't have to bear some personal responsibility for their actions - of course they do! But the reason even legally, an employee cannot be unduly punished for an error (unless willfully negligent, etc), is because...that ISN'T what they signed on for! YOU, the owner did - in every hope that it would pay off handsomely.

And that's the thing. Progressive companies aside, that tie compensation to perormance (ie profit-share, stock option), employees are NOT PAID to assume the risk of company ownership because...wait for it...THEY ARE NOT OWNERS! It is NOT an employee's job to take on the risks entailed of owning or managing a company, that's why their compensation is limited to their wage, which is whatever the market will bear or they are able to negotiate. This is why employees tend to get upset at all the Skywards when they learn after the fact they were in fact, de facto "owners" for the purposes of liability - but not remuneration! You call it "whining" - seems like a valid beef to me: all of the risk, none of the reward! A great big giant F-You to all of those types of scumbag owners! It is a piss-poor manager that blames his employees for a company's poor performance.

You say the employee's number one interest is themself. Are you suggesting an owner's interests are any less selfish? You talk about the poor owner going out to do a charter or whatever no one else will take - is that out of the kindness of his heart? Please. As you state yourself, their only goal is profitability. Loyalty is like respect - don't expect it from anyone you aren't prepared to give it to yourself. And what the hell that has to with socialism, I can't wait to hear the explanation.

Localizer · Post by **Localizer** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:12 pm

Complexintentions,

Damn fine post my friend .... I can't wait to hear the responds ....

Loc

ei ei owe · Post by **ei ei owe** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:40 pm

Maybe when the company went down the tube and the owners got together and had a meeting to see where they were all going from that point on and had no options because all planes were sold, all assets were gone and everything repo'd then it would be justifiable to let the employees down. But that's not the case. They scrambled to save what they could, hid potential sources of cash and transferred assets to family members. I completely understand the point of owners wanting to look after themselves and making money but to cheat former employees of rightful earnings and savings is the point and that's why the former owners are bags of sh$t, should be made to sell what they now own and pay off their debts.

The courts protect the criminals unless the innocent fight to the death to prove what's right. C'mon, is it really that far of a concept to say that FB now owns a plane in Ontario and runs a business and could pay previous debts? To prove it in court is the big deal but shit man, I don't know too many cheap lawyers and the cost vs recovery ratio is pretty low.

Don't work for FB. He'll dry hole you first chance he can.