Age 60 Hearing For Ex-Air Canada Pilot

[Rebel]

Copied from Pprune..

Age 60 Hearing For Ex-Air Canada Pilot

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The Canadian Human Rights Tribunal has scheduled a hearing into a complaint by a former Air Canada First Officer who was forced-retired as a result of the provisions of the collective agreement in force between Air Canada and its pilot union. That hearing will take place in January.

The Canadian government over 20 years ago abandoned maximum age limitations on airline pilot licensing (apparently on Constitutional grounds--contrary to the age discrimination provisions) but our current Human Rights Act exempts from the age discrimination prohibition situations "when the individual has reached the normal age of retirement for employees working in positions similar to the position of the individual."

The question thus becomes one of, what is the "normal" age of retirement for an airline pilot? Who is the "comparator group." In th case of Air Canada, should it include the domestic competition, or only the international carriers?

A group of us have applied to intervene in the hearing, in support of the Complainant, and we have set up a web site as a central resource to provide information in regard to the Age 60 issue. http://www.flypast60.com

I would be interested in receiving comments here from others who may face the same situation, particularly given the ICAO age restriction changes that are to take effect on November 23rd.

One question of interest to us, is what effect with the ICAO changes have on carriers flying into the U.S.A. if their government will no longer be able to prevent over-60 aged pilots-in-command from operating into and out of their airspace.

Warmest regards from Canada.

[cyyz]

the provisions of the collective agreement in force between Air Canada and its pilot union. .

A group of us have applied to intervene in the hearing, in support of the Complainant,

The question thus becomes one of, what is the "normal" age of retirement for an airline pilot? Who is the "comparator group." In th case of Air Canada, should it include the domestic competition, or only the international carriers?

You guys are dumb.......

Don't sign agree to something you don't like next time..... Half those idiots are the ones mocking Jetsgo-ers and others who sign bonds....

And obviously what is the "normal age... of the pilot group," I'd venture to guess it would probably be the age of the "group" or in this case the "union" and in this case YOUR group has decided 60, and you and your group has VOTED and APPROVED and said YES to this as per your collective agreement.

But I'm sure a judge will see past my logic, they do let out gun shooting criminals after 2 years after all.......

PS. Again, post has nothing to do with REBEL, just the article itself and those who can't see their flaws...

[Traf]

I can't quote but I am sure that someone (maybe ALPA) has done several studies on the safety issues of 60+ pilots and on the most part, skills dropped quickly after the age of 60 .

The last thing I want is for this crap to go through so that 65 becomes the norm and more companies force pilots to work to 65 to get a full pension. If you are 60 and retiring from AC, you should have your finances in order and it is time to get out of the game.

[tonysoprano]

Cyyz.
Buddy, I've been on this forum a while now and participate quite regularly. And every time I read your posts you leave me confused and perplexed. You either are just too intelligent and are way beyond me or those drugs you're on are doing some damage. I don't know. Just an observation, eh.

[Traf]

And every time I read your posts you leave me confused and perplexed.

What part is confusing? The part that I would sooner retire by 60 instead of 65 with a full pension?

You either are just too intelligent and are way beyond me...

Yes!

Like someone said above, ACPA signed the contract but now that it doesn't go the way of a few pilots, the courts need to get involved and make a big case out of it. There seems to be a trend here that ACPA signs something or agrees to a process and the mi nute it is implemented, they try and change the rules. I grow tired just watching.

[B-777]

here is my opinion,
Most of them have worked for 30 years plus... making a 6 digits salary by then...they want to keep working great....go and instruct give your valuable experience to a green pilot who will be our airline pilot of the future...

Leave the line job for the young crew waiting to start their career...you had your share of the cake so move on ... I say greedy...this is what they are..
most of them go and work on contract to Skyservice anyway while they collect their AC pension...give me a break... wonder why SC does not hire from the street...too many 76 type rated pilots out there... big debate...
take AC to court...to get some back pay..if the law see retirement age at 65...nice thank a lot...nice ...then all the retired pilot will get half a mill..
want to take the company down...sure you don't care now ,you had your career...A...hole..go and instruct or teach GS...be a sim instructor.
my 2 cents....good night.

[tonysoprano]

Traf.
It doesn't concern you. Stop watching.

[balls]

And every time I read your posts you leave me confused and perplexed.

What part is confusing? The part that I would sooner retire by 60 instead of 65 with a full pension?

You either are just too intelligent and are way beyond me...

Yes!

Like someone said above, ACPA signed the contract but now that it doesn't go the way of a few pilots, the courts need to get involved and make a big case out of it. There seems to be a trend here that ACPA signs something or agrees to a process and the mi nute it is implemented, they try and change the rules. I grow tired just watching.

Man, now you have ME confused. Other than you deep seated hatred for AC pilots and ACPA what are you trying to say?

Since CALPA days, since the inception of Trans Can Airways likely, the retirement age has been 60. Generations of pilots have come gone, families, likely kids and probably grandkids of a few have come and gone with understanding of a 60 retirement age.

Traf, WTF is the point of slagging ACPA at every turn here, it is SO F'ing old already. The 60 retirement is not news to anyone. It could be moved to 65, but most pilots do NOT want that. ACPA has taken the direction and information from the membership, now, let the courts decide only with the input of information that the general membership is fine with status quo. I sure as hell am ok with 60 - and gone in a few months. bbye.

[Traf]

Man, now you have ME confused. Other than you deep seated hatred for AC pilots and ACPA what are you trying to say?

LOL,"deap seated hatred". That is funny. The only reason I am picking on AC pilots this time is they are the ones trying to f&*k things up. ACPA is the most influential group in this country by shear numbers. If WJ were the biggest and they were trying to pull this one off, I would be bashing WJ pilots.

The fact is, I would sooner retire by 60 with a full pension than have to go that extra 5 years. Until this point, ACPA had 60 in their contract and I was hoping that someday, Jazz would implement it. Now that a few pilots that seem to have no desire to retire and are taking things to the next level, it will most likely always be 65.

I will not apologise for wanting to get living my life away from work sooner than later. If it is AC pilots leading the charge that will likely have an effect on that, it is the AC pilots I will criticise.

[Traf]

Here is a quote from the "Coalition's" website.

This pilot was forced to retire by reason of a written agreement between our employer, Air Canada, and our union, the Air Canada Pilots Association (ACPA).

Call me crazy but I do believe that is a perfect example of an AC pilot having a signed an agreement and then raising a stink when it doesn't suit his needs. There seems to be a trend here. Most times it is seniority but in this case it is retirement. Same shit, different issue.

Good luck on you retirement balls! Got some golf planned?

[Localizer]

That is a stupid law-suit .. this is a stupid thread .. and last but not least .. If you're 60 and want to keep working there is an issue there .. get out there and enjoy the rest of your life! Use your passes and explore the world! .. You earned it!

2 cents!

Loc

[JayDee]

Individual opinions one way or the other on this issue really don't matter. This is a legal issue. Period .

You can do one of two things:

(1) be an ostrich

or

(2)if you want some straight shooting answers to all your questions go read the FAQ section.



http://www.flypast60.com/FAQ.htm

[...]

My buddy works with an old chief pilot that shouldn't be allowed to feed himself unsupervised.

When is enough enough in the majors? 65-70-75-80?

If you havn't made your pension and small fortune by then, you never will.

Move over, there are young pilots with families on the way up.

[cyyz]

here is my opinion,
Most of them have worked for 30 years plus... making a 6 digits salary by then...they want to keep working great.....

I get their arguement, some don't have enough time in with a/c so they don't get the "best" pension in most likely hood, why they don't take a desk job or training captain job, i don't know.....

But in this case a Union member has said, "yes we should retire at 60 from a/c" and agreed with the union contract that the union proposed and gave to A/C which AC also looked and and signed and agreed to.

So their arguement that they should retire later is great and dandy, if it wasn't for the fact that the pilot group has stated 60 is the age when they should retire and that's when they will retire, and if the guy didn't like it when he signed up he should have gone to a union meeting and got himself onto the contract committee to change things, instead he stayed home and played with his gf.....

[Lost in Saigon]

No one wants to force anyone to work past 60. But if a hand full need to work past 60 for various financial reasons, they should be allowed to. It is basic human rights and has nothing to with a contract. Many pilots are now joining Air Canada in their late 30's or early 40's. Retiring after 16 years of service won't get you very much.

Just because it is in the contract, it doesn't make it right.

What if the contract said that pilots with glasses must retire at 55 but those without can go to 60? Pretty ridiculous yes, But why should some pilots in Canada be allowed to work past 60 while others can not.

I would like to retire at 60, but even more important to me, is the right to choose to work longer if I am fit and competent, and so desire.

The courts will decide what is the normal retirement age, and what ever that is, we will have to live with it.

[TG]

And those "various financial reasons" would be one, two or three ex wifes by anychance !?

[Lost in Saigon]

"one, two or three ex wifes"

What if that is the reason? Does that make it less of a reason to want to continue working in your eyes? That's not greed. That's survival.

I think it is the young guys who are just starting out, and wanting the old guys to retire earlier so that they can earn more money, faster, who are the greedy ones.

In my eyes, anyone who has worked in this industry for 20 or 30 or 40 years deserves the utmost respect and if he wants to (or needs to) work for a few more years, then that should be his business and no one else's.

The argument about "changing the rules" doesn't hold any water with me either. Age 65 retirement has been talked about for many years.

[cyyz]

Just because it is in the contract, it doesn't make it right.

What if the contract said that pilots with glasses must retire at 55 but those without can go to 60? Pretty ridiculous yes, But why should some pilots in Canada be allowed to work past 60 while others can not.

I would like to retire at 60, but even more important to me, is the right to choose to work longer if I am fit and competent, and so desire.

The courts will decide what is the normal retirement age, and what ever that is, we will have to live with it.

The contract was written by you and your peers, you can go to union meetings DENY(vote "no" "down") a collective agreement/contract...

The pilot can go and become a bag handler, csr, f/a or other member of Air Canada, and after 60 YOU CAN TOO.. You just can't fly anymore...

[cyyz]

In my eyes, anyone who has worked in this industry for 20 or 30 or 40 years deserves the utmost respect and if he wants to (or needs to) work for a few more years, then that should be his business and no one else's. .

So keep WORKING.. But take your arse out of the airplane.....

[WF9F]

They can still work just not at AC in their present position.Greedy old farts.Go contract somewhere.They enjoyed the spoils of retirement at 60 for their career advancement but now want to change the rules and stick it to the junior guys once again..If 65 does come in it should be only for the pilots hired from the date of that decision.

Get A Life

[Rebel]

Hmm this is another copy from the Pprune and written by a WJ pilot, enjoy..

Yesterday, 23:15 #4
royalterrace
Instead of being 'just another number' I could order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe


Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 28 Ray767
WestJet policy was that you could continue to fly but right seat only. One Capt accepted that option , one quit.
No legal complaints were filed. Our pilot group was not happy with the situation and let that be known. Management decided that the right thing to do was to allow them to hold their Capt's position. They are built special "Canada Only" blocks and although this may prove to be troublesome in the future as more pilots reach 60 , we are hoping that challenges to this outdated ridiculous rule by groups such as yours and those currently challenging it in the US will prevail.


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Today, 01:26 #5
royalterrace
Instead of being 'just another number' I could order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe


Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Calgary
Posts: 28 Small problem with your union vote. It violates the Canadian Charter of Rights.
Aside from that it is interesting that the majority of AC pilots voted against it. Something like 90% of WestJet pilots were for it. I wonder why?
As for what one signs on for , I presume you will be happy with your pay and terms of employment when you were hired to remain the same until you retire.
We took the view at WestJet that not many guys would want to fly past 60 but we felt that those that did should be allowed to. Sure it slows the upgrades a little but who knows , by the time you turn 60 maybe you will want to or heaven forbid , have to fly past 60. It's nice to have the choice rather than to have a decision like that made for you.

[Jaques Strappe]

There seems to be a trend here that ACPA signs something or agrees to a process and the mi nute it is implemented, they try and change the rules. I grow tired just watching.

Traf

I agree with you in that I don't agree with bumping the retirement age to 65 but just so you understand, neither does ACPA. This is not something of ACPA's doing. This is just a small group of divorced and pennyless pilots who have nothing left for retirement. The rest of us by a vast majority, gave ACPA a mandate to try to stop this and keep the status quo.

[Traf]

OK fair enough JS. It simply comes off as an AC pilot thing after rebel's post and going to the coalitions website.

[F-16]

.

[cyyz]

This is just a small group of divorced and pennyless pilots who have nothing left for retirement. The rest of us by a vast majority, gave ACPA a mandate to try to stop this and keep the status quo.

Thank you jaques.