YYC FSS

Phlyer · Post by **Phlyer** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:02 pm

Flying into Calgary tonight in screaming vfr we got a crossing restriction - time was only twenty minutes later while CMA behind us was an hour later. Only runway 34 was open. When back on the ground I asked clearance what was the deal with all that and got
'system capacity was up and we are short units'.
Thinking about the many $ that all this holding time cost everyone I wonder how NC can claim improved service.
Same with YQU - it can be twenty minutes sometimes to get a vfr departure.
Can any controller type units comment on this - are you guys really that short of people? The ones working did a great job BTW.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:13 pm

I was delayed coming into CYYC this evening by a speed reduction 220 miles out. Turned a 1+35 trip into2+10 junket. It is a real bitch becaue with the Texas Tampon, we cannot carry that much extra fuel if we are going to honour the customers request. No Notam or any other sign of a slow down. The big problem I can see is customers are going to ship through the USA where ATC can handle traffic. At or approaching the eastern bedpost, there were 3 airliners that were at min fuel. Someday someone is going to run out. I don't know and cannot say where the problem lies. Is it airport capacity? ATC capacity? unexpected traffic demands? or are we just seeing in Western Canada what has been going on for year in parts of the USA?

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:30 pm

Its the Calgary airport. Wind was 080, which barely favours 34, actually doesn't even favour 34, it favours 16, but for some reason they were using 34 tonight. But that's definitely a tailwind for 28, and for some reason they didn't want to use 10 as well. So it's just like YYZ when they're on the 33's- system capacity is shot to hell, and it's too effin' busy to do a runway change to 16/10 because there are already 15 departures lined up for 34. That's the only thing I can think of. There were no storms, it's CAVU province-wide, and no turbulence.

SierraPoppa · Post by **SierraPoppa** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:37 pm

oldtimer wrote:I was delayed coming into CYYC this evening by a speed reduction 220 miles out. Turned a 1+35 trip into2+10 junket.
The big problem I can see is customers are going to ship through the USA where ATC can handle traffic. At or approaching the eastern bedpost, there were 3 airliners that were at min fuel. Someday someone is going to run out. I don't know and cannot say where the problem lies. Is it airport capacity? ATC capacity? unexpected traffic demands? or are we just seeing in Western Canada what has been going on for year in parts of the USA?

Did you actually read what you just posted.

Lets see now "I can see is customers are going to ship through the USA where ATC can handle traffic." "or are we just seeing what has been going on for a year in parts of the USA?"

Which one is it? You can't have it both ways. Can the Americans handle it or not?

"Someday someone is going to run out." What utter bullshit. No pilot is going to hang around up there to the point of running out of fuel just to make a point. Any sane person is going to declare an emergency long before that happens, and guess what you do that and you get priority.

God you guys can blow just about anything out of proportion.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:14 pm

It's the annual Nav scam. Every summer Nav Canada denies stakeholders; ie you, services because they're short people. Why are they short people? Simple, a bunch of em go on vacation; others work overtime to fill in the gaps, then they swap. This game has been going on for years, since before Nav Canada in fact; and nobody is in any hurry to change it. Meanwhile the customers suffer.

Turbofan · Post by **Turbofan** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:35 pm

Very pertinent post...but.....what does it have to do with YYC FSS ??

bigfssguy · Post by **bigfssguy** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:54 pm

Turbofan wrote:Very pertinent post...but.....what does it have to do with YYC FSS ??

Kinda wondering the same thing myself????????/

As for the post, how many industries don't have slowdowns during holiday season? It's a fact of life, not to mention ATC is short staffed to begin with. If you don't want these delays then have NavCan deny everyone there holiday time, then you will have overworked, overstressed controllers. That sounds like a fun job to me!!! Anyway it is unfortunate but it's life and nothing is gonna change it, people need time off and what better time than summer!

lawndart · Post by **lawndart** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:43 am

Give the YYC terminal airspace to YVR center. Lots of room to grow there, and they seem to be able to graduate more than 5% of their trainees. I have yet to run into a delay/hold into YVR for "system capacity", despite the fact the system there includes 10,000' rocks within 15 miles of the airport.

Phlyer · Post by **Phlyer** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:29 am

Right - I should have said ATC, but I suppose technically ATC is part of flight services.
If they know people are going on vacation then why are more people not trained for the shortage?

Turkey · Post by **Turkey** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:55 am

They've been short staffed for many, many, many years now. They have no intention of solving it. It will remain as it is; incapable. They can't handle the traffic into the oil patch in the winter - "staff shortages." And they can't handle the vacations in the summer - "staff shortages."

They're short staffed. They know it. And they refuse to do anything about it. Why? Only they know.

Meanwhile, passengers miss their connecting flights. Overnight freight misses it's connecting flights.

It's not the controllers on shift who are at fault. They did a very good job last night. It's management's fault. For not EVER having enough staff. Year after year after year.

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:48 am

Absolutely, 100% agreed. How many consecutive days/months/years in a row can you have "staff shortages" and not do anything about it?

Say Altitude · Post by **Say Altitude** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:25 am

I waited for nearly an hour to get my clearance to YVR with the excuse that the whole flight planning computer system had crashed and they were trying to manually reload them all - hence the complete ground shutdown in YYC - no mention of staff shortages.

scabber · Post by **scabber** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:47 am

One has to wonder if Navcanada could/should be held legally liable for damages resulting from ATC delays.... I heard at least two VERY annoyed westjet crews request clearance to an alternate last night due to fuel issues.....which translates into a LARGE loss for westjet...... not due to an internal problem.

If Navcanada aknowledges that they are unable to provide full service due to ongoing staffing issues..... I think they should be held financially liable for damages to air carriers.

burly · Post by **burly** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:23 am

As an IFR conroller in YEG i can understand the complaints with regards to delays and staff shortages, but on the other side of the coin if you walked in to the ACC at the times when delays are in effect and seen how many people were working you would undertand why. guys are working there asses off to try and limit delays but you can only do so much with 60% staffing. Dont shit on the controllers because they are working as much traffic as humanly possible, but when we are short staffed as bad as we are there often isnt someone to come help you out at the sector when traffic levels become too much for one person, so basically we are told not to let it get over the top or else you will have no one to bail you out.

To the person who complained about delays in YQU, I am a controller who works that sector and that sector includes CYXJ CYDQ CYQU as well as a ton of oil patch airports, so we are on the phone with the FSS for 50% of our time issuing clx's so that ties up a great deal of time. Plus after CYXJ the radar coverage goes from ok to nil which makes it all the more difficult. I was an IFR pilot once myself so i can see things from both sides, but I invite you to come to the ACC sometime and see what were up against sometimes and you'll get a way different perspective.

To answer the staffing thing, there is more controllers coming in the pipeline but it takes 12-24 months to qualify a controller here, plus we are in the middle of a major airpace change to accomadate high/low traffic.

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:50 pm

having spent an entire day in Edmonton center to see what happens there, I have to say they do a great job with what they have. the staffing limits, and larger and larger sectors are due in large part to the union refusing to allow more staff, thus ensuring higher wages and overtime(this is from upper management's mouth). The common radio equipment malfunctions all over alberta the last few days would be due (my opinion) to differing funding priorities (wages vs service) and also due to the largest account receivable (AC) not paying up!! Just like pilots, there are good/experienced controllers and poor/rookies who work with junk under managers who cut corners when ever possible...
GPS approaches into every strip, controllers at each large center (qu, xj, oj...)and radar service all the way north would make life wonderful but will never happen in the current system...

SierraPoppa · Post by **SierraPoppa** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:48 pm

burly wrote:
To answer the staffing thing, there is more controllers coming in the pipeline but it takes 12-24 months to qualify a controller here, plus we are in the middle of a major airpace change to accomadate high/low traffic.

To compound the staffing problem there are literally hundreds of controllers across the country who are extremely close to retirement and could leave anytime within the next five years.

They are on D.P.M.O time: Don't piss me off (or I'm gone")

or 30/30/30 time: 30 seconds to make up their minds, 30 minutes to write the letter of resiganation and thirty days to work the notice given.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:20 pm

And the StooPeed is just around the corner so it's only gonna get worse. There's been "reduced system capacity" for those days in July every year since I did my PPL.