Advanced Ultralight or VLA

Springbok 2 · Post by **Springbok 2** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:54 am

I want to use you guys as a sounding board.

At our flight school we fly Advanced Ultralight Aircraft (AULA) as trainers for ultralight permits with a passenger carrying rating.

These aircraft are 2 seater, 100hp Rotax powered aircraft using mogas. Cruise is between 100 and 110 KIAS. Climb is 1000 fpm one up and 800 fpm with 2 on board and at gross (1213 lbs). Stall speed is 37 KIAS with 50 deg of flap.

Given these performance figures, we have effectively moved out of the ultralight category. In Europe, South Africa, Australia and NZ we refer to similar aircraft as Very Light Aircraft. In the USA they are Light Sport Aircraft but in Canada we still refer to them as ultralight albeit advanved ones.

As an instructor, I have found that connotation with or link to the word "ultralight" confuses the general public, especially when they see the aircraft and say "Wow, is that an ultralight?".

In South Africa, we are also allowed to do PPL, CPL and IFR training on "advanced ultralights" or VLA`s. Because they are non-certified, need no AME to maintain them and run on mogas, they offer the cash strapped avaition lovers an alternative avenue for training. This is especially true for pilots doing the transition through Rec / PPL to Com and IFR.

Any of you guys care to comment?

AV8OR · Post by **AV8OR** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:20 pm

I think Canada needs to stop refering to them as ultralights (even advanced ultralights). It gives people the wrong impression. They need to follow along the lines of VLA or like the U.S. as LSA. Some of these advanced ultralights out perform some certified aircraft. Being able to do your RPP or even PPL on them would really entice people because of the reduction in cost. Just my thoughts.

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:27 pm

What does one of these "Ultralights" cost to rent? I'm planning a trip in the fall, details are at http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=19795 and it looks like these may be an option. Both of the guys going are around 160 lbs, and we wouldnt need much more than a couple of changes of clothes. What kind of range can we get on one of these, with say 350 lbs of Pax and cargo? Also, are the cabins heated? Trip will be late october, and going around the northshore of superior, so heat would be nice. Sorry to hijack your thread here, but you sparked my curiosity.

ST

Also, is there any training other than a quick checkout that I would need to fly it? I'll have around 500 hours at the time.

ST

Springbok 2 · Post by **Springbok 2** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:49 am

" Redneck" wrote :
What does one of these "Ultralights" cost to rent? I'm planning a trip in the fall, details are at http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=19795 and it looks like these may be an option. Both of the guys going are around 160 lbs, and we wouldnt need much more than a couple of changes of clothes. What kind of range can we get on one of these, with say 350 lbs of Pax and cargo? Also, are the cabins heated? Trip will be late october, and going around the northshore of superior, so heat would be nice. Sorry to hijack your thread here, but you sparked my curiosity.

ST

Also, is there any training other than a quick checkout that I would need to fly it? I'll have around 500 hours at the time.

You are by no means highjacking the thread....ask away.
On weight, you have the following on the Evektor Sportstar:

Empty weight is 695 lbs
Max take off weight is 1213 lbs
Baggage weight is 33 lbs
Useful load is 518 lbs
Fuel is 17 US Gal mogas and 4 hr endurance

The 48 inch wide Cabin is heated.
Wet rental rate is $110 an hr

Insurance technicalities demand that we do a 2 hr conversion to type which will include a full flight review (all the exercises except spins) and all emergencies. To hire and fly, you will also require at least a recreational license. The latter is also an insurance issue.

PM me for further details or visit http://www.edenflight.com

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:39 am

My first instructing job was on a very capable advanced UL. I quit because people told me the hours didn't garner respect in the commercial business or some garbage like that. Also I was trying to log time for my ATPL which of course only 50 hours of PIC is loggable.

That plane was far more challenging to fly than any of the light certified a/c, and was quite affordable in comparison. It's really unfortunate that powered parachutes and all metal, closed cockpit, 100 KT, rotax powered aircraft are in the same category just because the're all below 1200 pounds.

AV8OR · Post by **AV8OR** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:47 pm

I know that you can only count 50 hours towards your ATPL but would companies see advanced ultralight time as Total Time or not anything.

Speedbird Junior · Post by **Speedbird Junior** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:03 pm

I have had the pleasure of flying a couple of these Ultralight machines and they are indeed impressive in performance.

However at $110/hr wet, its near the price of a 172. I know which I would rather fly in for any period of time.

If the above machine is only using a little over 4 USG/HR of Mogas at about $4.20/USG (so $16.80 an hr) the wet rate seems a bit steep.

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:28 pm

Speedbird Junior wrote:However at $110/hr wet, its near the price of a 172. I know which I would rather fly in for any period of time.

If the above machine is only using a little over 4 USG/HR of Mogas at about $4.20/USG (so $16.80 an hr) the wet rate seems a bit steep.

I came to the same conclusion, have you got a rate for dry? Also, what about long term rentals? I'm figuring it would be around 30 hours flight time, and I would want the aircraft for 2 weeks. The trip I'm planning is for the last 2 weeks of october.

ST

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:04 pm

AV8OR wrote:I know that you can only count 50 hours towards your ATPL but would companies see advanced ultralight time as Total Time or not anything.

I can see it now... "so where did you build your time?"...On ultralights. "On what?"...

I don't know, you try it first and let me know how it's received.

An openminded CP might take it at face value, I would hope that an hour's and hour. But this industry's so f'd up.

CP's don't like intructor time unless they were an instructor. CP's don't like skydive time unless they were a jumper dumper. CP's don't like anything unless they did it and realize that an hour IS an hour.

Springbok 2 · Post by **Springbok 2** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:55 am

Speedbird Junior wrote:I have had the pleasure of flying a couple of these Ultralight machines and they are indeed impressive in performance.

However at $110/hr wet, its near the price of a 172. I know which I would rather fly in for any period of time.

If the above machine is only using a little over 4 USG/HR of Mogas at about $4.20/USG (so $16.80 an hr) the wet rate seems a bit steep.

I hear what you guys are saying but we have the same problem that a lot of schools / flying clubs have and that is the heavy insurance penalty we pay to have the aircraft available for hire and fly.

On the positive side, remember that you are renting an aircraft that out does the C172 in a number of ways. It has a wider more comfortable cabin, amazing 360 visibility, 1200 ft climb rate 2 up and 800 ft at max T/o weight.

I will get back to you on a dry rate!

AV8OR · Post by **AV8OR** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:03 am

I wonder if a U.S. chief pilot would look at it as total time considering in the States, advanced ultralights are classed as light sport aircraft. I've even heard that Cessna is thinking about entering the light sport aircraft industry because of the increasing sales of these type of aircraft.

AV8OR · Post by **AV8OR** » Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:32 am

Picture of Cessna unveiled....

http://www.copanational.org/non-members/index.htm

Entry into the LSA for Cessna...

http://www.cessna.com/news/article.chtm ... &year=2006

Looks like the face of things to come

Advanced Ultralight or VLA

Advanced Ultralight or VLA

'advanced' ultralights