Too much chatter on the radio rant!

Jeremy · Post by **Jeremy** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:57 pm

.........who reads avcanada as well. (nice shameless plug bigfssguy)

Raven20000 · Post by **Raven20000** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:52 pm

I find chat on the radio all depends on the controller and pilot and how busy it is at the time, hell there has been days when I have had a chat with Pearson tower controllers.

But Saying that there are people that talk way to much, especially students in the practice area for the first time announcing everything on the radio.

This is SC__ doing 50 knots indicated airspeed over such and such doing slow flight for 10 minutes between 3000' and 4000' then power off stalls at 4500', then - you get the point.

goldeneagle · Post by **goldeneagle** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:57 pm

Dockjock wrote: The other one, and seems to be a YYC thing, is the absolutely excessive reading back of instructions, information, and so forth. "Heading 310 to join, cleared ILS 34, maintain 160 to the beacon, and contact tower" does NOT need to be read back in full. Just "ABCD cleared ILS 34" is fine. Now it's to the point where the bad habit has been passed on and on and it's a snowballing problem. Perhaps there should be a 5-yr renewal on the radio license?

Heading 310 - Commonly called a vector, technically it's an ATC instruction, acknowledgement is required.
Cleared ILS 34 - Clearance, readback is required
Maintain 160 to the beacon - ATC instruction, acknowledgement is required.

To read back the clearance, and not acknowledge the instructions is NOT ok. Go read the cars, I even took the time to look it up for you, reference section 602.31. Section a specifically details the instructions, and section b the clearances.

Out in the real world, the easiest way to acknowledge a vector is in fact to repeat the heading back to the controller, it's the common practise, and leaves no room for confusion. If the frequency is busy, then 'maintain 160' as part of the readback is a clear/short/concise acknowledgement of the speed restriction. If you are flying the same route, into the same airport all the time, it's quite common for controllers to start 'assuming' you are expecting the speed restriction, and not really care about the acknowledge part on it. If you are headed into an area where your plane/voice are not immediately recognized by the controllers, they will (and often do) question a readback that doesn't acknowledge the speed restriction.

As for the pleasantries on the radio, well, if you dont know any of the folks on the other end of the microphone, and are only interested in pushing your airplane from point a to point b, then rushing off to put another line in the logbook, I can see them becoming annoying. On the other hand, if you've been working the same general area, and developed a rappor with a group of controllers over time, then some idle chit chat in the off times is not unusual, and a bit of a personal aknowledgement such as 'good morning' or 'good evening' goes a long way to keeping the rappor up between pilots and controllers. You may disagree, but, not all of us are automotons that are only interested in driving airplanes thru the sky. Some of us actually stop after work and do bar-b-ques together, even have a beer, or send our kids off to do things together. There's more to this life than driving airplanes around, and the common practise of exchanging pleasantries on the radio kind of emphasizes that MOST of us in this industry agree. You may not have developed a personal rappor with controllers over the years, but I have. It means I will stop off at tim's for coffee with them sometimes, and when I hear them on the radio it'll be 'good morning Vancouver' not 'Vancouver center....'. Many of these folks are aquaintances, and some qualify as friends, and if we choose to acknowledge that at work, that's the way the world works. It's one of those little things that makes the day flow by a little smoother, and a little less impersonal.

rd1331 · Post by **rd1331** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:41 pm

As Goldeneagle said, a Clearance or Instruction must be read back. So Dockjock maybe its u who should have to redo your radio license.

As for the term "any conflicting traffic" pretty useless, like someone isn't gonna tell you that they are headed right towards you at the same altitude.

But i think people should say there ident at the end. How many times you listen to the radio hear something around your position and then are oh sh$t what was the ident. Then you go through the whole process, "aircraft around bla what is your ident" or whatever other means to get there ident. That in the end takes more time than just saying your ident at the end. And for all those gods out there that hear every single radio call and every single ident, sorry we can't all be as perfect as you.
Short & sweet just add the ident nothing else.

My 2 Cents

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:53 pm

My favorite would have to be when the skipper hits the wrong button and does his/her entire P.A over the frequency. A Northwest guy did that in YEG center and went on and on and on, finally when he finished, without missing a beat, Speedbird came on saying he "didn't get all that, please say again."

Highly entertaining but a great waste of frequency time.

Arrow · Post by **Arrow** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:43 pm

How bout the mental midgets that like to make chicken or pig calls on the radio. Yup we're all professionals.

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:20 pm

goldeneagle wrote:On the other hand, if you've been working the same general area, and developed a rappor with a group of controllers over time, then some idle chit chat in the off times is not unusual, and a bit of a personal aknowledgement such as 'good morning' or 'good evening' goes a long way to keeping the rappor up between pilots and controllers.

It's really simple: If the frequency is congested, keep everything as consise as possible, while still doing all of your readbacks. If it isn't, saying "good morning", "thanks", or "talk to you in a bit" doesn't hurt any.

Apparently controllers in YWG North Low think I'm grumpy, though, since I never do it with them over the hotline.

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:33 am

none of the above phases me, but the guy who waited until I was on my way to the active and just about to call to radio to ask for his IFR clearance really pissed me off. Especially when he messed up his readback three times! I must have been sitting at the edge of the taxiway for 8 minutes...

grimey · Post by **grimey** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 7:58 am

Northern Skies wrote:none of the above phases me, but the guy who waited until I was on my way to the active and just about to call to radio to ask for his IFR clearance really pissed me off. Especially when he messed up his readback three times! I must have been sitting at the edge of the taxiway for 8 minutes...

Were they still loading passengers?

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:13 pm

no it was a private guy..... but he hadn't started his engine yet. Didn't have a clue though, some lost guy from south of the border.

rotorfloat · Post by **rotorfloat** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:11 pm

I thought you couldn't get your clearance until you were taxiing for takeoff? I thought I heard a specialist say that on the radio a while ago.

dxpr · Post by **dxpr** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:31 pm

My un-favorite waste of air....

Centre CGABC "with you" ...

DUH! If Centre can hear you, isn't it obvious who you're with???

I LOVE throwing out the WILCO whenever I can... I think it is so underused..

Kinda like TALLYHO

ex-dxpr

McPhoo · Post by **McPhoo** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:52 pm

.... but he hadn't started his engine yet. Didn't have a clue though, some lost guy from south of the border.

Wasn't there so I don't know the details but it mighta' been that the lost dude from the south was just doing what he probably does everytime he flies. At many airports where it its busy in the south and some up here too, you have to get your clearnce before you start anyways. Clearance may give you a time that your clearance is good for. If you start and then try for the clearance you could well sit there for ten or fifteen before you are allowed to taxi. Bit of a waste of fuel etc..

On the other hand, at CYOD you can't get your clearnace unless you are started and ready to taxi because the clearance is only good for five minutes and they don't want to have to re-issue just cause you took too long.

Just depends where one is used to operating.

For the casual private flyer who is stressed at getting the clearance anyways it would be easier to get the clearance taken care of and then get going with everything else maybe. It can get in the way of the flow and go but I guess we share the airport with all types and experiance levels.

At places like SEATAK they don't really like general aviators in there cause it jams the system up just like you had the joy of experianceing.[/quote]

Dockjock · Post by **Dockjock** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:58 am

Heading 310 - Commonly called a vector, technically it's an ATC instruction, acknowledgement is required.
Cleared ILS 34 - Clearance, readback is required
Maintain 160 to the beacon - ATC instruction, acknowledgement is required.

Perhaps I do need to redo my license, It's been 10 yrs. In fact I would welcome a refresher course. We train and retrain every other aspect of the job, but not radio- and communicating is a BIG part of the job!

Compliance with Air Traffic Control Instructions and Clearances

602.31 (1) Subject to subsection (3), the pilot-in command of an aircraft shall

(a) comply with and acknowledge, to the appropriate air traffic control unit, all of the air traffic control instructions directed to and received by the pilot-in-command; and

(b) comply with all of the air traffic control clearances received and accepted by the pilot-in-command and

(i) subject to subsection (2), in the case of an IFR flight, read back to the appropriate air traffic control unit the text of any air traffic control clearance received, and

(ii) in the case of a VFR flight, read back to the appropriate air traffic control unit the text of any air traffic control clearance received, when so requested by the air traffic control unit.

(2) Except if requested to do so by an air traffic control unit, the pilot-in-command of an IFR aircraft is not required to read back the text of an air traffic control clearance pursuant to paragraph (1)(b)(i) where

(a) the air traffic control clearance is received on the ground by the pilot-in-command before departing from a controlled aerodrome in respect of which a standard instrument departure procedure is specified in the Canada Air Pilot; or

(b) the receipt of the air traffic control clearance is acknowledged by the pilot-in-command by electronic means.

I disagree that the best way to acknowledge an instruction is to read it back; that is exactly what causes all the congestion. I think an entirely appropriate response to the previous call would be "Roger [to indicate I've received and understood the instructions] ABCD cleared ILS 34 [the clearance readback]"

zzjayca · Post by **zzjayca** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:30 am

Dockjock wrote:I disagree that the best way to acknowledge an instruction is to read it back; that is exactly what causes all the congestion. I think an entirely appropriate response to the previous call would be "Roger [to indicate I've received and understood the instructions] ABCD cleared ILS 34 [the clearance readback]"

The problem is ATC requires a readback for both an ATC clearance and an ATC instruction.

Here is what our MANOPS requires of us:

133.4
Obtain an accurate readback if issuing or
relaying an:
A. IFR clearance or IFR instruction;
B. amendment to an IFR clearance or IFR
instruction; or
C. instruction to an aircraft or vehicle to HOLD
or HOLD SHORT of a runway or taxiway. (R)

133.5
You may omit requesting a readback for an
initial IFR clearance issued by a ground or
clearance delivery controller provided: (N)(R)
A. no changes have been made to the
originally filed flight plan;
B. the clearance is issued by referring to a
machine printed strip or a video display of
the flight plan;
C. the clearance includes a published standard
instrument departure; (N)
D. no alternate instructions are included in the
clearance; and
E. there is no apparent misunderstanding of
the clearance contents.

2R · Post by 2R » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:21 pm

Good point McPhoo
I have called for clearance and been told "number ten ,expect clearance next hour maybe" why burn fuel ( money ) when you do not need too.

Do not eat in the lakeview when big Hughie is in if you like to give your lifestory when talking on 122.8 .You will get an earful of how to sound professional on the radio and when twenty airplanes are all getting airborne at the same time they do not need to hear " East bum middle @#$! nowwhere traffic any conflicting please call c-fabc on 122.8/ 123.2" and then the same wafflegab on 126.7 a split second later .
So here's a question
Gabbing on two radio's means you are not listening to either one nes pas ??
Talking is no substitute for looking .I have flown with pilots making all the correct radio gabbing noises and then they start with the paper work in the climb in a non radar enviorment.I watched with glee as we got closer and closer to someone who was not using any radio .and then brought it to their attention .You know just to distract them from that all important paper work

Aviate Navigate Communicate

justplanecrazy · Post by **justplanecrazy** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:46 pm

niss wrote:I pay the people at Tim Hortons to get me coffee, but I still thank them politly after. If I dont they spit in my coffee.

Good plan... and remember if you don't thank us, we'll pee on your plane.

Dave T · Post by **Dave T** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:33 pm

I was always taught that if it's not to busy to add the good morning in, makes you stop and remember you're actually talking to a person, not a machine. I think people need to wake up in MF's though. Unless it's hard IFR and there might be a huge delay don't call for the clearance until you're rdy to go. I've been rdy and had a plane call up and end up having to wait for the yahoo to go in front of me.

126.7 I understand the frustration but some people are just not used to dealing with that much VFR traffic. People that fly IFR most of the time or in less busy areas just aren't used to having the problems that can occur on 126.7 in the busy areas, not an excuse just something to think about.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:34 pm

The only thing that bothers me is the double click to acknowledge. you could just as easily say "thanks" or "roger" in the same period of time and save some of us the hassle of dealing with that annoying sound.

N2 · Post by N2 » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:00 pm

Ok talk about useless chatter how about this. A few years back before AC retired the 727's we had a Captain who belonged to our local flying club tie up the airwaves on our local frequency so he could say hi to the guys in the tower while he passed overhead climbing through 11k. He continued to make small talk even though the guys in the tower were ticked off by the sound of thier replies. Boy I sure was impressed and I bet all the students were as well.

lilfssister · Post by **lilfssister** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:02 pm

For those of you who constantly complain about 126.7:

(Read Page 4 and 5)

http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefiniti ... 006_en.pdf

Elessar_44 · Post by **Elessar_44** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:09 pm

I'll throw in a "good morning / aft / evening" to whomever I'm speaking with if it's not crazy busy, cause like many people have said I'm talking to a person not a robot. It's just common courtesy.

But back in my early training days I used to be overly thankful and says "thanks" to tower alllll the time. My instructor heard me one day and asked if I talked like that all the time, which I answered yes. She said gave me a light smack and said you dont need to clog up the waves with so much chatter, thank ATC if they help you out beyond the normal scope of duty. I've been pretty conservative with my "thanks" on the waves ever since.